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DiRT Rally - AI drivers too good?

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Qiou87 said:
I can't judge the difficulty of the Open AI (maybe it could benefit from being a tad slower for beginner's). The game has a big learning curve, but it's one of it's stronger points. In Masters after 100+ hours, I find it appropriately difficult to beat the AI but in no way impossible provided I drive cleanly. I'm actually glad that it is this way, so I need to concentrate and it keeps things interesting. What a drag it would be if I finished 30sec quicker than the AI...
The game might have a steep learning curve, but the AI doesn't. The Master AI is not significantly faster than the Open AI.
On a sprint stage, there can be as little as 4 seconds difference between the easiest and hardest AI.
Basically, the game starts at a high difficulty and gets fractionally harder as you progress.
If you were to draw it on a graph, the curve would be very gentle, almost flat in fact.

KevM said:
I have enough credits to buy both, but no interest in buying an R4 car.  Maybe I am not the only one? Perhaps the majority of players feel they have bigger fish to fry, than going back to a championship in a slower heavier car?
All right then, we'll use the 2010 cars on that stage which have had over a month since the reset and are probably the most popular in general.
Open AI can set times within the top 400 (3:14:184) and Master AI times around the top 200 (3:11:400).
That's barely less than 3 seconds between the easiest and hardest AI on those runs.
Obviously there's a good deal of variety to be had, the AI do not post fixed times and I'm not going to repeat this a hundred times to give a nice average, but it's giving us an idea. 

kobeshow said:
People just need to erase that first place in their mind until they reach masters, it is a design decision to promote a certain mindset.

I'm really not sure what mindset it's meant to be promoting by having such a small difference between 5 difficulty settings.
I would imagine it just encourages people to restart again and again, which seems to be the polar opposite of the games intent of "just get to the finish instead of restarting" which has given us such a robust damage model.

To reiterate, I'm not remotely suggesting anyone should be able to pick up the game and paste the easiest AI, but as it stands now, there just isn't enough distinction between the difficulty levels.
The thing that creates the games learning curve is taking on new car classes as your progress and the length of the events rather than a meaningful difference in the AI.

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To add to that, I would be fairly confident that I have NEVER completed a rally championship.  (I may be wrong, but if I have, I cant remember as the ending was an non-event anti-climax?).  I dont even know how to check!!  I use championship rounds to harvest credits when I need them, I then spend the rest of my time aimlessly staging about on my own!

There's nothing to walk me to, or entice me to actually complete championships, I can buy what I want when I have the credits to do so, so skipped most of the car classes on the way.  There are still cars in the game, that i have yet to drive!   The only motivation I have to drive them, is curiosity.  Should we not 'need' to as part of the structure of the game?

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BrySkye said: 

kobeshow said:
People just need to erase that first place in their mind until they reach masters, it is a design decision to promote a certain mindset.

I'm really not sure what mindset it's meant to be promoting by having such a small difference between 5 difficulty settings.

I disagree with that, I think there's a huge difference between the AI at different levels. Sure, not for 1st place, but it's you need to place in the top 3 in a championship to 'progress', so I don't understand why your comparisons are based on a different position. There is a massive difference between 3rd place in the Open and Masters levels, which just ensures that each difficulty level both quicker and more moderately-paced drivers (like me) have something to battle against at each (compulsory) level.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge advocate of being able to mod AI names/values/attributes - to me it's a minimum level of modding that should be available (as it doesn't affect anything online) - but, until this is the case, I think they've found an innovative and creative way to keep each difficulty level engaging for players of all abilities.

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I thought I had the same problem when I first started playing, with keyboard I could get 2nd maybe 1st but I could not control any car class other than 60's,and 70's. Got a G27 wheel and WOW. 60's 70's is really fun, and I can actually control other vehicles all the way to group B and have placed top 20 on some of the sprint stages on Wales in 80's BMW.

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I'm playing in Masters. When the car is stock I find it impossible to win, I regularly finish 4th-6th, but when fully upgraded I almost always win, but it's still challenging. I think it is fine the way it is.

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Feel like I should do some quick, yet extensive tests and come up with a graph to show the average AI times for say the top 5 positions, separate them by location, and maybe make a graph showing all locations together with a average time. Here I come Excel!... tomorrow maybe.

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JZStudios said:
Feel like I should do some quick, yet extensive tests and come up with a graph to show the average AI times for say the top 5 positions, separate them by location, and maybe make a graph showing all locations together with a average time. Here I come Excel!... tomorrow maybe.
I might run each stage 5 or 10 times, should be enough to get a decent average.

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After playing 200+ hours, it's getting easier :D Started the masters championship with the 60's Mini and to my surprise actually won the first event (which was Monte) fair and square, the guy in second didn't crash out as he usually does :D and I beat him by 40 seconds. So maybe the AI drivers are just fine :D (even though I think I voted otherwise)
EDIT: Now after 4 races in the second event I already have a 45 second lead :| I guess that's what playing against real people does to you :D 

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I thought the Finland AI was OP, I couldn't beat it. But it turned out it was me all along, with lots of practice it is possible.

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BrySkye said:
Only 165 people have thus far proven capable of beating the 2nd easiest difficulty level in that car class for that stage.
Ampelonas Ormi in Greece, 0.005 seconds behind AI at Master in a 2001 Scooby is only good enough for 8th place in the Leaderboards

Beating it by over half a second only took me to 6th.



I took me 3 nights to beat that time. V. Ruzicka's time was always 03:01.987. If I hadn't been going for the Maximum Attack achievement, I wouldn't have still been going at it 3 nights later. I did the first 10 easily, 2 or 3 attempts at most, but 11 was a killer. Stage 12 was Kathodo Leontinou (Ampelonas Ormi is the 2nd half of the stage), I beat the AI time by nearly 5 seconds on my first attempt.

It was worth it though :)




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I took me 3 nights to beat that time. V. Ruzicka's time was always 03:01.987. If I hadn't been going for the Maximum Attack achievement, I wouldn't have still been going at it 3 nights later. I did the first 10 easily, 2 or 3 attempts at most, but 11 was a killer. Stage 12 was Kathodo Leontinou (Ampelonas Ormi is the 2nd half of the stage), I beat the AI time by nearly 5 seconds on my first attempt.

It was worth it though :)
I just can't ever bring myself to care enough to actively try to get achievements. They're so pointless.

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I don't go for them all, but I like to get the hardest ones                                                

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I like the difficulty.. I'm only on the second stage of clubman championship and come 2nd or 3rd in each stage. I'm using a crappy old Logitech momo force with only 270 deg rotation, I blame it on that haha! Can't wait to get my thrustmaster TX.

They could make it clearer at the start of a championship where you need to finish to progress! 4th overall for open, 3rd for clubman etc.. 

A hint - if you do a good rally, exit out and backup your save game so if you have a disaster (irrecoverable crash), you can copy your save game back in and be back to where you were at.

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A hint - if you do a good rally, exit out and backup your save game so if you have a disaster (irrecoverable crash), you can copy your save game back in and be back to where you were at.
You can just hit Alt+F4, when you hear that unrecoverable crash sound. When you start up the game, it will be back at the start of that stage

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just as an update.. just completed the clubman championship in the BMW EVO, and somehow, I won by 2 points! I didn't win a any individual events, but four 2nd places and a 3rd was enough to win. Second place was three 1st positions and two 7ths. So hold in there, you can be surprised! So I don't think the AI drivers are too hard at all, just about right, with enough simulated issues holding even the fastest AI drivers back on some stages. I'd hardly call myself a good driver either, this is the only driving game I've ever put any decent hours into..

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I say "yes", the AI is a little too good....to a point.  FWIW, I'm currently on my third attempt at the Professional championship.

I've noticed through every rally I've been in so far that there are two drivers, and it's always these two drivers from the first championship to the one I just finished, that are placed 1st and 2nd.  In almost every occasion Driver A has finished ahead of Driver B unless Driver A has a failure of some kind.  That's OK, but what's weird is their time gap to other AIs in the rallies.  Typically, in a new car, I will be about 8-15 seconds slower on a 5k stage than Driver A, and usually 2-3 seconds off of Driver B.  The three of us, however, can be 10-15 seconds faster than whatever AI is 4th and this is always the case.  Even looking at the finishes of stages that I crashed out of, the same AI driver can be 20 or 30 seconds up on other AIs, and this happens very consistently.  Looking at the drivers from 3rd back, they are usually much closer, with most stages putting 3rd-10th across 5-8 seconds (and this group 30 seconds off of Drivers A and B).

Personally, I embrace the challenge of trying to minimize the gap.  However, I always have to remind myself to wait for a car to be fully upgraded before I can attack and try to win stages.  I race karts in real life, so I am all too familiar with looking at at speed chart and asking, "How the **** did he go 3 seconds faster over a mile?", but I can see the everyday gamer not embracing a 15-second deficit at the start of the career with an un-developed starter car.  I like that DiRT Rally is going for a simulation, but maybe if the front-runner AI were dialed back just a touch, it might make things a little more attainable.  Not necessarily winning every stage (or any), but maybe instead seeing merely 5-7 seconds on a perfect run in an un-developed car would work better.  As of now, I've run stages in the no-upgrade R4 car and been 18 seconds off of the lead in 2nd place.  If I was 8th, that might make more sense.

However, as I move out of Professional (assuming my effing R4 car will stop grabbing hold of passing trees), I expect the AI to get much harder and make fewer mistakes.  I don't want to win every stage, that's boring, I simply want to look at the board after a run and say, "I can make up 7 or 8 seconds if I work hard at fixing my mistakes."

In comparison, I look at the 45-second deficit after the Weekly stages and say, "I'm far too American to run with the guys topping this chart."

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That sense of improvement is the key :-) 2-3 months ago I was so pleased at just winning a masters championship. Yesterday I easily just plowed through the first event and got the maximum attack achievement (win all 12 stages in a masters championship event). When I saw that steam achievementt the first time I thought it was pretty much impossible for me.

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So after doing my spreadsheet on 2 Greece stages, a sprint and a long, the difference between A1 #1 is 5 seconds on sprint, and about 10 on long. It's not a big change. The average AI time, however, is a much faster story, and that's where the difference really comes in. On open the AI is quite spread out with every AI being between 10-30 seconds behind the previous. In masters they're all within 5 seconds of each other. Occasionally though, on open, the AI will put up masters type time, and vice versa.
I ended up getting bored doing the same stage 25 times in a row, so I stopped and did something else. I might just do a sprint and long for each location, just to make it a quicker testing session.

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The AI might be fast, but they also crash, so that's what balances it out. I was doing the Elite championship in the Fiesta RS. After 3 events I was in second place, 5 points behind the guy in the first place, (also, he was the arch nemesis guy, everyone has the one guy, that's a lot better than the rest). Anyway, only way for me to win the Elite championship (and get the achievement) was for that guy to crash out, because if I came first and he was second, I would still lose by 3 points in the total leaderboard. Luckily he did crash out. 

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at first you may think its they are too good.i wouldn't judge your performance until atleast 100 hrs in.which is actually great ot have a noticeable learning curve.it also highlights how easy games are now or spoon fed.

once you  get used to the game masters isnt that bad.

i would prefer to have it harder.not easier.i am nearly 400hrs in though now. :) now where is my postman with my new wheel :D

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dgeesi0 said:
at first you may think its they are too good.i wouldn't judge your performance until atleast 100 hrs in.which is actually great ot have a noticeable learning curve.it also highlights how easy games are now or spoon fed.

once you  get used to the game masters isnt that bad.

i would prefer to have it harder.not easier.i am nearly 400hrs in though now. :) now where is my postman with my new wheel :D

I feel like open and masters should have a bigger separation though. 5 seconds really isn't much. I think open should be a bit slower and masters a bit faster. Making open slower would let more people enjoy the game, and masters harder would obviously make a better endgame of sorts.

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dont make anything easier.worst thing that could be done. remember to get the best out of the game you have to play to learn it. by making it easier that just shortens the life span.

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Malyngo said:
I think everyone here that want AI to become easier is only refering to the lower tiers like open.
And everyone against making things easier is like "Woah, don't touch my masters!"

I for one wouldn't mind if they make masters a bit harder, and Open easier. And everything else somewhere in between, like @JZStudios already suggestet.
Guess everyone could be happy with that.
  Pretty much. Again the biggest difference between Open and Masters is the other AI's time difference shrinks. Other than that it's almost exactly the same, with the Rival AI being just a few seconds faster. Open is basically almost Masters

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