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How To Create True Rally Game

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No, now I shall not discourse on physics improvements. Now physicas is not ideal, but at least eatable. I mean basic gameplay type changing... first step to which was made in Dirt 4. Dirt Rally is not rally simulator by simple reason that in rally driver pass each stage only once, he move on very long dustance, hundreds of kilometers, being guided by co-driver notes. So, not unlimited track sucking for many years, but ADVENTURE at unknown area, - its that what has to be the aim of the simulation.

In Dirt 4 (and then in V-Rally 4) steps were made.... but they did not reach destination point. Nor puzzle method, neither road net track generator does not give true rally experience. We need really HUGE worlds with thousands of kilometers, avaiable for adventure.

May be, somebody believe, that its impossible - to create such worlds generator? But we know, that such generator already exist.

Ten years before, in 2009, Codemasters released the game named FUEL. Racing events in post-apocalyptic world. This game till this time mentioned in Guinness book as a game with the most huge game world. This world is really infinite. You must spend many hours for cross it from one edge to another. It has dozens of sub-locations, differ one-another by landscape type, and each of this locations is much, much larger than any racing game world. Then, picture here is quite not bat even for present time, with daytime and weather effects, different objects like dead cities, factories, airports,dams, and also small houses and so on. Below you can watch examples. But, then, the weight of the game is THREE GB. Yes. Its looks fantastically in comparison with new Grid, where in 64Gb we have quite squalid content. It means, that all landscape is not hand-made, but just GENERATED - otherwise it would be simply impossible to build all these!  Although practically never we meet here some discrepances, some unnatural breaches, incorrectly located objets and so on: everything is monolithic with great multiplicity - even no copy-paste feeling in landscape creation!

 

So, its absolutly clear, that with SUCH technology it would be easy to create basic content for 15 WRC location, for example, and generate each time before race 300 km of roads in absolutly new world! With modern hardware it would be of really good quality! And it would be true rally gameplay! The only problem - to find the way of pacenotes generation for each road, but its not critical, I believe. So, the technology exists, and Codemasters has some deal to it. French guys worket it out probably quite live. I think, the only problem is that guys from Kylotonn would not find them first. And its the wat for creation of true rally game with fantastic experience!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by LaPremierrre
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How to create true rally game?

1. Pick DiRT Rally 2.0

2. fix all the bugs

3. add new stages and new location

4. (not mandatory) add a proper MyTeam feature

5. (not mandatory) rework and expand the single player mode

:classic_biggrin:

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it's totally true  dirt 4 and v-rally 4 we try to create an unlimited rally system, i hope to see a really improved system to have unlimited rally.
 

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On 10/31/2019 at 8:44 PM, LaPremierrre said:

Dirt Rally is not rally simulator by simple reason that in rally driver pass each stage only once, he move on very long dustance, hundreds of kilometers, being guided by co-driver notes. So, not unlimited track sucking for many years, but ADVENTURE at unknown area, - its that what has to be the aim of the simulation.

Not true, for a number of reasons.

1, Rallies tend to be in the same areas every year.

2, Rallies typically use the same stage twice during the year. For example - https://www.rally-maps.com/Rally-Finland-2017 - The list includes Ouninpohja 1 + 2, the same stage, ran twice.

3, A quick Youtube search for Ouninpohja reveals it's been used regularly over the years - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ouninpohja

4, The rules for WRC say that drivers are not allowed to drive the stages for 3 months before a rally, but they are allowed to drive them for the other 9 months of the year. Here is Mikko Hirvonen testing a Focus on Ouninpohja.

And here is Andréas Mikkelsen doing the same thing.

 

On 10/31/2019 at 8:44 PM, LaPremierrre said:

In Dirt 4 (and then in V-Rally 4) steps were made.... but they did not reach destination point. Nor puzzle method, neither road net track generator does not give true rally experience. We need really HUGE worlds with thousands of kilometers, avaiable for adventure.

Why do you want to drive thousands of miles following the rules of the road in any country in a rally game?  For example, driving at 30mph in the UK, stopping at traffic lights, giving way to oncoming traffic, etc.

 

On 10/31/2019 at 8:44 PM, LaPremierrre said:

So, its absolutly clear, that with SUCH technology it would be easy to create basic content for 15 WRC location, for example, and generate each time before race 300 km of roads in absolutly new world! With modern hardware it would be of really good quality! And it would be true rally gameplay! The only problem - to find the way of pacenotes generation for each road, but its not critical, I believe. So, the technology exists, and Codemasters has some deal to it. French guys worket it out probably quite live. I think, the only problem is that guys from Kylotonn would not find them first. And its the wat for creation of true rally game with fantastic experience!

That game already exists.

https://www.forzamotorsport.net/en-us/news/horizon_rally_expansion_pack_announce

Hundreds of miles between stages, no co pilot.

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Someone should not give tips about how a rally game should be better if he doesn't know rallying in general ...

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On 11/3/2019 at 10:23 PM, mesa said:

Someone should not give tips about how a rally game should be better if he doesn't know rallying in general ...

and you  ? and stop putting disagree for nothing, if you do not like listening to the notes and have unlimited rallies it is that you have been wrong disciplines, you should do hillclimb, F1 or rallycross, and you will tell me "We can predict the turns on V-rally 4 and Dirt 4" I will answer codemasters and kylotonn tried for the first time but unfortunately system was missing turns and need updating to fuel the game, in a game rally you have to make the co-driver important with longer stage with good pace-notes because on dirt rally 2.0 the pace notes are very bad.

 

to end with the splash the disagree does not mean that I do not like you it's just one that I did not agree and I appreciate your livery that you create, and the history of the steering wheel if you do not feel the splash I you believe, before I had the T300RS and now  I have the T-GT and the difference is very big, and having the T-GT does not mean I have a lot of money.

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39 minutes ago, gk9147 said:

 "We can predict the turns on V-rally 4 and Dirt 4"

I never told this. 

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15 minutes ago, mesa said:

I never told this. 

no, I anticipate because a lot of players use this argument😂

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The problem with the track-gen in DiRT4 was more than "we have few tiles and segments".

the scenarios are just a splashscreen with hills or mountains and the road is just a left-right-left-left-right, this happens because a track-gen (or any something-gen) must work on certain tracks.

You'll never have a unique landmark, you can elaborate hundreds of different turns and corners but everything MUST be "generic". Everything must be generic, because the software is not flexible and easy to handle.

Take Wales in DiRT4 and tell me what you mostly remember in the best stage you've faced. I remember only forest section and hill section, and Wales was the most interesting location.

See the problem here?

That's why it becomes boring (and predictable) very quickly.

Besides that: how can be funny an open world sim rally game? How it could work?

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On 11/3/2019 at 5:50 PM, SkiddyMcCrash said:

Not true, for a number of reasons.

1, Rallies tend to be in the same areas every year.

2, Rallies typically use the same stage twice during the year. For example - https://www.rally-maps.com/Rally-Finland-2017 - The list includes Ouninpohja 1 + 2, the same stage, ran twice.

3, A quick Youtube search for Ouninpohja reveals it's been used regularly over the years - https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ouninpohja

4, The rules for WRC say that drivers are not allowed to drive the stages for 3 months before a rally, but they are allowed to drive them for the other 9 months of the year. Here is Mikko Hirvonen testing a Focus on Ouninpohja.And here is Andréas Mikkelsen doing the same thing.

That game already exists.

https://www.forzamotorsport.net/en-us/news/horizon_rally_expansion_pack_announce

Hundreds of miles between stages, no co pilot.

I didnt catch your point: so, you believe FUEL technology would be not useful for track generator building in rally game ? Or yoy think track generator itself not needed? 

Your argues are really strange. For example, if I tell "each track passed only once" I mean it passed without restarts and external training, each driver use first attempt experience during second, but it means very few.  If rallies same place every eyar - it does not mean each special is to be sucked thousand times during these years. Watch to total amount of specials' length for each rally and compare it with the same value in games... the first is several times more, and rally Finland does not consisn only from Ouninpohja, but it includes, above special, hundreds of intermediate roads' kilometers. The very idea of rally competition, I repeat, concentrated in words "driving by unknown road with pacenotes", and any tendentions now are very far  from the point where they could eliminate this idea.

And as for me, I mean just the type of gameplay. Now rally games offer us not rally, but "crazy hoplap" gameplay. And its rather OPPOSITE POLE of that what supposed for rally simulator. And its just the reason of track generators beieng involved. Its the future of rally gaming. If we chew over the same squalid tracks for 5 years, and new releases continue with the same - its evident dead end.

As for forza horizon... I played 2 month FH4 and, may be, 4-5 FH3, but I kbow EVERY roads both games. Its not that what needed. Also this game practically does not support racing wheel. Yes, I got 3 place in FH3 grand challenge with ancient MOMO wheel (because my DF GT was not supported), but it was very uncomfortable and demanded too unnatural, boring efforts. Joystick players there has great advantage. And, looks like, the game still does not work. Video at this page is dead.

Edited by LaPremierrre

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DiRT4 used a random track generator, the people didn't like it. The main reason was the limited number of tiles used. The reason for the limited number of tiles was the limited memory available on consoles, so any new game written for those consoles will have the same problem. As for the length of stages in game, they are making them as long as they can using the current technology.

 

"Each track passed only once" means "No restarts". I understand now.

 

I know that Rally Finland doesn't only consist of Ouninpohja . I used Ouninpohja as an example of how a rally will use the same stages, not only in the same year but repeatedly, year in year out, and have done for the past 20 years. I could have used any of the other countries and picked the stage that is in DiRT Rally 2.0 to use as an example. There is no "driving by unknown road with pacenotes". The drivers know at least 90% of the roads used in a rally, and they know them well.

 

Those "squalid" tracks used in game were chosen by forum members, they were chosen because they are all famous stages within the world of rally, some going back over 40-50 years.

 

DiRT Rally and 2.0 were released with different stages, from different countries to each other. DiRT Rally 2.0 released the stages from DiRT Rally as dlc because we asked them to.

 

 

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@LaPremierrre I watched this video on youtube and I think I understand what you are trying to say now. I know that you can speak English, so I assume that you can understand spoken English? If you can, watch this video about Rally in the 1970's and timestamp the parts that talk about what you are trying to explain please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzsSwamSDrA

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On 11/7/2019 at 5:42 PM, SkiddyMcCrash said:

DiRT4 used a random track generator, the people didn't like it. The main reason was the limited number of tiles used. The reason for the limited number of tiles was the limited memory available on consoles, so any new game written for those consoles will have the same problem. As for the length of stages in game, they are making them as long as they can using the current technology.

 

"Each track passed only once" means "No restarts". I understand now.

 

I know that Rally Finland doesn't only consist of Ouninpohja . I used Ouninpohja as an example of how a rally will use the same stages, not only in the same year but repeatedly, year in year out, and have done for the past 20 years. I could have used any of the other countries and picked the stage that is in DiRT Rally 2.0 to use as an example. There is no "driving by unknown road with pacenotes". The drivers know at least 90% of the roads used in a rally, and they know them well.

 

Those "squalid" tracks used in game were chosen by forum members, they were chosen because they are all famous stages within the world of rally, some going back over 40-50 years.

 

DiRT Rally and 2.0 were released with different stages, from different countries to each other. DiRT Rally 2.0 released the stages from DiRT Rally as dlc because we asked them to.

 

 

for consoles, dirt 4 did not take a lot of resources, weight of the game, graphics and others, dirt rally 1 and dirt 4 are similar to the old dirt, but dirt rally 2.0 technology and graphics looks like F1 and (and grid too ), dirt rally 2.0 I think it uses a lot more resources than dirt 4 for the PS4, I think the generate race will come back on PS5 with the new technology use for dirt rally 2.0 or more later .

 

rally 90 % rally driver know the race ? not really true i said example  sebastien loeb proof ,it had the ability to codify several notes to make them short which made it faster, do not forget that the rallies have many stages so the co-drivers is very imoprtant

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On 11/3/2019 at 4:50 PM, SkiddyMcCrash said:

4, The rules for WRC say that drivers are not allowed to drive the stages for 3 months before a rally, but they are allowed to drive them for the other 9 months of the year. Here is Mikko Hirvonen testing a Focus on Ouninpohja. 

And here is Andréas Mikkelsen doing the same thing.

I don’t see the game applying that rules anyway.

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