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Jämsä, Finland – Available Now in DiRT Rally 2.0

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1 hour ago, XenialJ said:

You posted a pic that hides the tree line under a mountain of pics and videos that show the reality.

If you find it fine that's cool but a lot of people don't, and being years after a game that already did it better, it's pretty fair for them not to.

Reality? I posted a picture that shows you what's also reality in the game. The guy above asked for daytime/clear as seen in the RL picture, of course insinuating there's no such thing in the Finland rally DLC. I posted a picture that shows you how daytime/clear can look like at Finland. I had taken more pictures of that run, not sure if I still have them. No fog, beautiful clear weather, no tricks, no photoshop. That is also part of reality. 

Edited by richie

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You posted a pic where 100% of the terrain at the game's already poor fogging distance is hidden.

 

I'm sure you can find some pics that look fine, but will they delete the fog from the rest of the stage? There are plenty of areas where it is really bad, way too many of them. As the majority of the previous vid shows.

 

 

 

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@richie @XenialJ

 

Guys, is it possible that different graphics settings are hardware are showing differences here? Even if not, what looks good for some doesn’t seem great for others - that video is a super demonstration of how much fog has been added over the gorgeous DR1 version, but it’s still OK to have differences.

Whether hardware, settings or just personal perception, it’s clear you both feel differently towards it, so probably best left there.

 

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18 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

 

The fog sucks bad, the promo pictures were misleading. Fact, fact.   

 

Whilst I’m also of the “Finland isn’t enjoyable” opinion, it’s just that - opinion. What you mention there aren’t facts.

That fog “sucks bad” is your opinion (one which I share but it is subjective).

That the pictures are misleading is probably fair, but it’s not complete fact - there can be any number of legitimate reasons. I bought Stellaris over Christmas and the game in its current state bears no resemblance to the original promo materials for it because it’s changed so much (for the better).

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I don't think there's need to throttle the topic Rodger; people aren't currently debating feelings. If someone wants to say "It doesn't bother me" that's fine. If someone wants to say "Look it's completely clear", that's a conversation that's still going. If it were an issue of perception, someone would have by now said "That's funny, I don't see in my game what that video/screen shows."

Edited by XenialJ
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22 minutes ago, RodgerDavies said:

@richie @XenialJ

 

Guys, is it possible that different graphics settings are hardware are showing differences here? Even if not, what looks good for some doesn’t seem great for others - that video is a super demonstration of how much fog has been added over the gorgeous DR1 version, but it’s still OK to have differences.

Whether hardware, settings or just personal perception, it’s clear you both feel differently towards it, so probably best left there.

 

I don't think so. I'm on console and PJ confirmed that Finland seems to be toned down for everyone,  and still I have seen plenty of replays showing clear skies and roads without fog. 

 

17 minutes ago, XenialJ said:

I don't think there's need to throttle the topic Rodger; people aren't currently debating feelings. If someone wants to say "It doesn't bother me" that's fine. If someone wants to say "Look it's completely clear", that deserves more attention. 

What deserves more attention is twisting things and misrepresentation of 'facts'. 

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Honestly giving extra focus to any of it just keeps bogging the topic down. Eg., it is indeed technically correct to refute someone's semantics of "always foggy", and I'm sure other screenshots without fog can be found, but it's a correction that brings little to the topic other than a massive sidetrack. An accompanying image that conceals all terrain beyond the car, avoiding any chance of fog even being observable, only bogs things down more as we back and forth over it. Neither correction nor image genuinely discuss the issue, so that's what I see as bogging the topic down.

 

You can't get a better representation of the complaints than the side by side video on the previous page. It is commentary-free, it leaves nothing to cherry-pick, and if it were recorded again those results would appear again. Anyone can fairly deny that it bothers them personally, but they can't deny that it's there, nor the large amount of people that it does bother a lot.

Edited by XenialJ
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15 hours ago, richie said:

I don't think so. I'm on console and PJ confirmed that Finland seems to be toned down for everyone,  and still I have seen plenty of replays showing clear skies and roads without fog. 

 

What deserves more attention is twisting things and misrepresentation of 'facts'. 

Then stop even argueing. Consoles are why this fog was added, no surprise you defend it. For me it's annoying, especially having in mind Finland from DR1. Great far look and great rain - both taken away from game becouse of consoles. It's not like I don't enjoy Finland at all, but it obviously looks worse than it would without this artrificial fog.

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1 hour ago, Pioy said:

Then stop even argueing. Consoles are why this fog was added, no surprise you defend it. For me it's annoying, especially having in mind Finland from DR1. Great far look and great rain - both taken away from game becouse of consoles. It's not like I don't enjoy Finland at all, but it obviously looks worse than it would without this artrificial fog.

I doubt it's "Consoles" alone, because the X-Box One X and PlayStation 4 Pro are pretty powerful and should be able to run this game in 60fps at all times and without fog. There are enough examples out there like Forza Motorsport 7 running in 60fps without fog.

It's obviously a combination of tech (old engine), budget and skills at Codemasters.

Why the PC gamers get hold back is absolutely stupid in my opinion, everyone knows, if he wants the technically best version, he should play on a PC, there is no reason to limit it, just to have equal versions of the game.

I play on a X-Box One S and have no problem with the fog. Doesn't look better than the DR1-Version, but it's not as bad for me. But I'm used to have not the prettiest games anyway.

And I see it like a challenge not being able to see much in front. Well, not an excuse of course.

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Consoles and low-end PCs might be why they had to make changes "for performance reasons", but that doesn't excuse Codemasters making a shockingly poor job with the performance increase. Adding this kind of horrible looking fog to what should be clear weather with no fog is absolutely NOT the right way to increase performance.

The impression I get is they were planning a fog-free good looking realistic Finland like you see in their screenshots but shortly before release they realized it doesn't run on consoles, so they make a 5-minute performance increase job that makes it look horrible. What they should have done is do the performance increase right, in a way that still looks decent, postpone release if need be, but instead what we get is this horrible foggy mess that they can't even bother to fix.

How did they manage to get sunset and  dusk to run ok without the fog though? That's something I'd really like to know.

In the very least, give PC players options to adjust the severity of the fog effect. So those with decent hardware can make it look decent at the cost of some fps.

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2 hours ago, Pioy said:

Then stop even argueing. Consoles are why this fog was added, no surprise you defend it. For me it's annoying, especially having in mind Finland from DR1. Great far look and great rain - both taken away from game becouse of consoles. It's not like I don't enjoy Finland at all, but it obviously looks worse than it would without this artrificial fog.

What if consoles are the reason why CM had money for DR2? It would be nice to do games for PC only but it was possible 20 years ago, not now for racing games.

45 minutes ago, UnderclassGDfan said:

I doubt it's "Consoles" alone, because the X-Box One X and PlayStation 4 Pro are pretty powerful and should be able to run this game in 60fps at all times and without fog. There are enough examples out there like Forza Motorsport 7 running in 60fps without fog.

Current consoles are pretty weak. The standard models even more. Forza is the flag ship game for the console and even if MS lose money on it it's fine for them.

I woudn't be so optimistic. Consoles could be the reason for the fog and it's OK.

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While I understand the frustration behind a feature not working the way we like it, too many folks always say "That's not how it should be done, it should be done this way", "it's an easy fix", "it's lazy", etc etc.

Truth is, though, without the source code in front of you and you actually coming face-to-face with the challenges they are trying overcome at Codemasters, you can't know if it's lazy, if it's an easy fix or if there is a better way to do things. Maybe they've tried your ideas for a better way and it wasn't enough. Maybe it could be done another way but it's infeasible, at this point, to do it because the code rewrite would be too extensive and planning can't foresee everything.

We, viewing things from the outside, often have superficial views of issues. I remember a friend being asked why a button on a webpage wasn't just a little bit more to the left side of the page. All he said he could think of, in his mind, was: "If you knew how much of a pain in the butt it was to get that to where it is right now, you'd know why."

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2 minutes ago, Johnnnn said:

Current consoles are pretty weak. The standard models even more. Forza is the flag ship game for the console and even if MS lose money on it it's fine for them.

I woudn't be so optimistic. Consoles could be the reason for the fog and it's OK.

You can't really compare the tech in consoles with a High-End-PC. Consoles are closed systems specifically made to run games. The specs seem pretty outdated by now, but look at RDR2. That game runs smooth on my One S.

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2 minutes ago, warpengage said:

We, viewing things from the outside, often have superficial views of issues. I remember a friend being asked why a button on a webpage wasn't just a little bit more to the left side of the page. All he said he could think of, in his mind, was: "If you knew how much of a pain in the butt it was to get that to where it is right now, you'd know why."

That's the reason why communication is so important. For the fog I wanted to know the reason. No reason for several weeks. Finland is fine for me but it's good to know what is going on.

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1 minute ago, UnderclassGDfan said:

You can't really compare the tech in consoles with a High-End-PC. Consoles are closed systems specifically made to run games. The specs seem pretty outdated by now, but look at RDR2. That game runs smooth on my One S.

No, current gen is normal weak NB APU. It was weak from start but it was pretty cheap. And you know what? That strategy worked like a charm. Mostly for PS4 but cheap and good enough is probably the most profitable way. Funny thing is the GPU in X1X is relatively OK but ancient CPU kills it.

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21 hours ago, XenialJ said:

 

You can't get a better representation of the complaints than the side by side video on the previous page. It is commentary-free, it leaves nothing to cherry-pick, and if it were recorded again those results would appear again. Anyone can fairly deny that it bothers them personally, but they can't deny that it's there, nor the large amount of people that it does bother a lot.

That's a classical straw man argument. If you read back you will notice that nobody's denying the 'foggy' atmosphere. Codies have spoken, in order to maintain a certain performance across all platforms they had to make compromises, so it looks like by bringing this topic up again and again you're not going to change the situation, and the nonsense and hyperbole aren't adding anything to the discussion. They're only making it worse for us players for future communication. 

 

8 hours ago, Pioy said:

Then stop even argueing. Consoles are why this fog was added, no surprise you defend it. For me it's annoying, especially having in mind Finland from DR1. Great far look and great rain - both taken away from game becouse of consoles. It's not like I don't enjoy Finland at all, but it obviously looks worse than it would without this artrificial fog.

Please explain again why I should stop arguing now because I'm not getting it. Not sure if you noticed (apparently not) but I'm not defending anything. 

Great, now that it's clear that consoles are the reason for the graphics compromises let the lynching begin. 

Edited by richie
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15 minutes ago, Johnnnn said:

That's the reason why communication is so important. For the fog I wanted to know the reason. No reason for several weeks. Finland is fine for me but it's good to know what is going on.

They've given the reason now: performance optimisation. That's all they can tell you, as any more explanation would require showing code for a proprietary engine, which is a no-no in the competitive game-development industry.

EDIT: And even if they explained more, without showing code directly, the details of how things needed to be optimised in a certain way could certainly give clues to as to how their tech works.

Edited by warpengage
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3 minutes ago, warpengage said:

They've given the reason now: performance optimisation. That's all they can tell you, as any more explanation would require showing code for a proprietary engine, which is a no-no in the competitive game-development industry.

Too late, too late. I don't care about any code, I need good reason only. I am a simple guy 😄

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2 hours ago, warpengage said:

They've given the reason now: performance optimisation. That's all they can tell you, as any more explanation would require showing code for a proprietary engine, which is a no-no in the competitive game-development industry.

EDIT: And even if they explained more, without showing code directly, the details of how things needed to be optimised in a certain way could certainly give clues to as to how their tech works.

This is a very bizarre and nonsensical thing to say. They could explain it in far more depth and detail, they have told us very little. No one here is asking to see the entire game code.

They could explain why, out of all the countless things developers can do to increase performance, they picked a horrible looking fog that make it look painfully bad.

They could explain why and how their "visual upgrade" has resulted in Finland looking a hell of a lot worse than in DR1. To me it just says they have done an astonishingly awful job.

They could explain why they think Finland DLC is in a condition fit for release in its current state. It's so awful Codies can't even show screenshots of it. They should have postponed release

They could explain why they release fake screesnshots that look nothing like the real game.

They could explain how they managed to get dusk and sunset to run ok without the horrible fog.

They could explain why this fog is the same on all platforms and why PC has no option to adjust it.

They could explain why it took them two months to give such a short and incomplete response.

They could explain why they say they don't plan to fix it, when it's so far below standard and so bad some players are avoiding Finland.

I could go on and on. Lots of questions, next to zero information.

"clues as to how their tech works" oh dear. You are actually under some delusion that tech stuff in a video game that anyone can buy is some super-confidential high-level military secret that cannot even be hinted at. Try to get to touch with reality would you? Maybe then you would also understand that they can give us information without sharing the entire game code.

Edited by HoksuHoo
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20 minutes ago, HoksuHoo said:

"clues as to how their tech works" oh dear. You are actually under some delusion that tech stuff in a video game that anyone can buy is some super-confidential high-level military secret that cannot even be hinted at. Try to get to touch with reality would you?

You really like hyperbole, don't you? And cool it with the tone as I wasn't being rude to you.

It's not military software, but it's also not open-source. Any company that develops closed-source software will do their best to protect their work and, most certainly, will avoid giving away details about their proprietary technology in a space like a public forum. Common sense. Also, if everyone could easily figure out how everything works in a game, just by buying and looking through it, makes me wonder why do they even bother encrypting their files.

35 minutes ago, HoksuHoo said:

They could explain why, out of all the countless things developers can do to increase performance, they picked a horrible looking fog that make it look painfully bad.

How do you know that there are countless things that could be done, in their specific case? Have you been there trying to diagnose the problem yourself?

37 minutes ago, HoksuHoo said:

They could explain why and how their "visual upgrade" has resulted in Finland looking a hell of a lot worse than in DR1. To me it just says they have done an astonishingly awful job.

Subjective. To me, the fog is acceptable.

55 minutes ago, HoksuHoo said:

They could explain why they think Finland DLC is in a condition fit for release in its current state. It's so awful Codies can't even show screenshots of it.

Probably because they'd done what they could within an acceptable time frame. They did show screenshots. They may not have shown the fog but, when you are trying to sell a product, you show it in the best light. Like it or not, it's Advertising 101 for any business. It's also worth noting, on this point, that video showcasing the fog was out prior to the DLC's release. So you can't say there wasn't media available to show you those conditions.

55 minutes ago, HoksuHoo said:

They could explain how they managed to get dusk and sunset to run ok without the horrible fog.

That is probably one of those too technical explanations. I don't know how, you don't know how. We'd have to see how things work internally to understand the decision.

57 minutes ago, HoksuHoo said:

They could explain why it took them two months to give such a short and incomplete response.

Possibly because they spent those two months trying to figure out a way to make Finland work, without the fog, thus avoiding the need to give that response. Unfortunately is wasn't possible to do better. If they had, straight-up, said they couldn't do anything, they'd probably get criticized for not even trying and they would be hit with backlash anyway, not from you but others. They can't win.

1 hour ago, HoksuHoo said:

They could explain why they say they don't plan to fix it, when it's so far below standard and so bad some players are avoiding Finland.

Again, subjective. Some players indeed. Not that many to be fair. Counting those involved in this thread, and the "How to avoid Finland" thread, you have about 10-12 posters. Not that high of a number to be of concern.

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5 minutes ago, warpengage said:

You really like hyperbole, don't you? And cool it with the tone as I wasn't being rude to you.

Not rude no, just an extraordinarily out of touch with reality assertion. I'm sure it's entirely possible to give some information without sharing the entire game code.

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All this argie-bargie could be avoided if Codies stated they were looking into optimising Finland and reducing the fog levels, assuming they can't remove it altogether.

That line that 'only about 12 players are bothered by the fog' doesn't cut it. That's about the same number who complained about the 'night rain noodles' on these forums. The fact is there will be plenty of players out there who find the fog awful, but who can't be bothered to come onto a forum to say so.

If I were Codies I would consider Finland an embarrassment, given the sequel is a downgrade to the original.

And there is simply no excusing the promo shots, despite efforts by some on these boards to come up with excuses.

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15 hours ago, richie said:

That's a classical straw man argument. If you read back you will notice that nobody's denying the 'foggy' atmosphere. Codies have spoken, in order to maintain a certain performance across all platforms they had to make compromises, so it looks like by bringing this topic up again and again you're not going to change the situation, and the nonsense and hyperbole aren't adding anything to the discussion. They're only making it worse for us players for future communication. 

I don't think you have understood what my argument is. For it to be strawman, you would have to think I'm arguing something other than the point made in my posts. I'm not. 

You want to say "nobody's denying the foggy atmosphere". Well, someone posted a real-life pic of Finland, crystal clear, and your response was a pic that hides anywhere the fog could be observed, with the comment "Looks pretty realistic to me".

If you read back you will see that is the only thing I have been debating. I have even agreed with you on technically saying there isn't fog everywhere. But your screenshot and the way it misrepresents the problem, is bogus. Simple. Referring to a previous video of the whole stage showing why your pic and your comment is not the reality isn't strawman; it's the same thing I have always said.

Edited by XenialJ
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It's true that we don't know the alternatives Codies were facing. We could be angry at them for rushing it out when it could have been improved, or that could be totally false and they delayed it until convinced that it couldn't be. 

But whatever the reason, it's still definitely hard to accept that this is how it had to be when other stages, and the prequel, don't look like you're playing Ecco: Defender of the Future. I know it's not viable for them to just shove DR1's Finland into DR2 and call it a day; they'd get eaten alive. But I wonder where the balance is. I definitely would have preferred a less flashy Finland to have less fog; for noob drivers like me the fog often restricts my view too much.

 

I'm pretty convinced that the esports + original consoles equation has been a big factor in how it stands though, particularly because of the way people with more expensive hardware are still forbidden from letting their hardware just work harder. I don't know how much that is a factor, but it's a crappy factor. Whatever led to the decision that says "PC/upgraded console owners can't use their hardware's potential", I do not like or agree with, even if it's to support esports.

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