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Pace Notes/Calls need improving.

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 After playing through multiple championships (11 hours played) I've come to my biggest gripe about the gameplay and my ability to push hard and consistently, it's the pacenotes (or calls as you call them.  I'l list the issues in numbers.

1. Inconsistency in call distance 

The fact is that changing this setting does very little as the actual calls don't come at any consistent time frame, I've been entering a corner as the co-driver lets me know an additional detail about the corner while I'm already halfway through it..  "Right 4 continues onto crest" where the actual important detail of this call is that this isn't your ordinary right 4, and taking it as such is going to result in an accident, but you're already in the corner and committed when you receive that information.  On the other hand, there are some times where it seems like there is a whole shopping list of calls being made and you're thinking "wow now, slow down you're confusing me" as essentially you're getting the information piled on you too early.

Examples of this are littered through the game, I remember one particular at Monte Carlo where the co-driver said "4 tightens to 2" and the tightens bit occurred as I was already on corner entry, when really speaking it would have been much more informative to tell me it was a 2, the 4 part of the corner is just not important, but it's the only bit of information you have when you're making that corner entry setup.


2. Lack of warning, urgency or accentuation of important information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=32&v=FymE2Vu-7lc

I'm not asking for over the top dramatics (see above) but the notes are said with such a lack of tone that you can zone out of important details when they are all streamed at you. I've gone through some corners once and thought to myself.... holy crap that really needed to be pointed out with some level of urgency. There are some truly epic examples that I'm sure we have all noticed where a particular corner or section is especially deadly and where the driver absolutely needs to be aware of that, where the current co-driver is extremely monotone like he is reading a basic shopping list.


3. Inaccuracies in calls, and unclear spoken words

We've all been there, you enter a corner that is a 4 or a 5 and you think to yourself... "how on earth is that meant to be a 4 or a 5, are you trying to get us killed?". There are numerous situations where the calling number is just not accurately representing the angle or severity of the corner in question and you make driving errors because of it.

Then there are the unclear words, now there are a few lines that are so long in detail and it's as if the co-driver voice guy was just rushing to say them as fast as he could without taking a breath, and there are others that are just not clearly spoken. There is one example at Monte Carlo where the guy is saying what I'm guessing is "3 tightens to 2", but in fact what it sounds like he is saying is "3 times 2". And in the moment I think ok, it's 3 and then another 3, by which point I hit a wall and think "ahh shit maybe he meant 3 tightens to 2". And it happens again maybe 2-3 times in the same stage, very unclearly spoken word.

I understand that the guy does a bit of co-driving himself, but the difference is that there is a connection between driver and co-driver, one that we have with friends/family where we can probably make a non intelligible grunt and our friends/family understand us, it's not the same for other people though and I think when making a game where millions of players have to be able to understand you clearly, this isn't quite good enough.


4. The number system

I recall hearing you talk about how the numbers don't mean gears (as we may believe) but instead the severity of the corners. But let me educate you here, this was a Colin Mcrae game at it's birth, at it's inception. Colin Mcrae used a numbers system of "gears and distances" and so a Right 2 really did mean a 2nd gear corner. For example he would have had a "Right 3 slow" which is a slow 3rd gear corner, where as a 6 may not necessarily mean 6th gear but instead meant flat out.

I understand that not all people use the same system, in fact it seems very different and personal across the board but it's strange to see you correcting people on the facts about the meanings of the calls when this idea came directly from the Colin Mcrae games, and Colin Mcrae did use just that system as interpreted by the fans, not as explained in your blog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbTbZfUKChY - Colin explains his system here

To finish


Ultimately all of this is a bit of an issue for me because I want to feel I can rely on the notes to properly guide me through the stages in a way that I don't have to practice them like a circuit racing game and then turn off the pace notes, right now I find that the co-driver often gives me misleading or mistimed guidance that causes me to make driving decisions that end my rally,

I've won a few rallies so far, but I've had so many downfalls that were the result of relying on the pace notes that I've actually turned them off, and I find myself slower (because I have to be more cautious) but getting caught out less often. Because I've no longer got someone telling me "right 4" when infact the corner is closer to a 2 or 3, and so without this misinformation I enter the corner with more caution and care... It is slower this way, because when the calls are right then it means I can be maximum attack, but when I'm maximum attack and the calls are wrong it means maximum retirement.


In an ideal world I'd probably have a more simplified pace note system for myself, one where the important bits are highlighted and the rest is just basic navigation..  if the game files could be modded in such a way I'd probably record my own pace notes with a voice actor... Either that or just learn the stages 100%

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I'm bumping this up to try to stimulate some discussion. I've found no end to inaccuracies and timing issues with the pace notes that cause death and destruction since making this thread (23hours played), and I think that improvements and amendments need to be made to give the driver an accurate and reliable co-driver experience.


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I don't know why you have a disagree vote here. You've laid out pretty well some items that can be improved, I've certainly had trouble with some notes coming basically as I enter a corner, with very important info such as "Don't cut," or "Immediate hairpin" that would have affected the way I set up for the corner coming well after I've already careened off.

Setting the calls to come earlier may make these one or two corners work more intuitively, but then I need to think further in advance than I'm used to for the rest of the stage. There's just tweaking that could be done.

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I've mentioned it elsewhere that this needs work but this best has the best description. I prefer the angle system myself but things like tight corners really need to be stressed more, and the timing definitely needs improvement.

I wouldn't mind trying out a geared call system though, it would be easier but too much suggestion might hold you back getting the best time.

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Just a couple of points.

1 - the numbering system used in this game is the same system that the majority of club level competitors use in the UK, with the majority of notes being event supplied notes, which for many years have been supplied by one or tow specific people, (Mike Patterson being one of the more famous as he was sued by a competitor due to a crash that he felt was caused by Pattersons notes....which was in my opinion was a very sad court case and should never of been allowed to go to trial). His notes generally are accurate but err on the side of caution and I have reams of notes that I or my navigator will change before the event, as you end up building a massive bank of knowledge of certain stages that you can add in before the event. 

With event supplied notes, a driver is never able to rely fully on the notes (though its more accurate than OS maps of stages etc) and will always drive with an amount of potential error built in. Obviously local knowledge helps, as does previous experience, but unless the notes are self written, no sensible driver would ever drive flat out to event supplied notes.

There are some people like my father for instance who still use the descriptive method i.e. sharp right, flat right etc, though I think that's a hold over from when OS maps were used for the majority of events as opposed to modern pace notes.

Some events such as the Tour of Mull, allow people to create their own notes. This is a much more accurate system, but even those need re-working, depending on which car is used as some cars ride bumps far better than others so there pieces of info that are not required in a say a wrc focus but are required for a nova or mk2 escort. The adcantage of course is that with these notes you can commit fully to them.

2 - The gear method could not work with this game, as it would require the same gearing to be used by everyone and a new set of notes to be produced for each car, as each car has unique gearing and speed etc.


3 - Yes, I personally believe that the notes need evaluating. I have discussed this with a number of real life competitors who play the game, 1 being an ex WRC level co-driver and the consensus is they need amendments, but on the whole are not that bad especially when you change the call distance in the options, the biggest problem really is the volume that the notes are being delivered in compared to engine noise.

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Two main problems that i have are:
-co-driver volume too low even when other sounds are set to lowest and co-driver highest. I've heard from my rallying relative that you here those notes clearly if everything works.
Problems with communications, could be a cool thing to add. But only rarely and only in career mode etc.
-there is some missleading info and more dynamics needed on the calls. 

There is some really good mods to rbr for pacenotes. Some have really good dynamics and overall sound. (Like one that voices Jarmo Lehtinen)

modding gets also my vote because it offers much more possibilities

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I agree that I've occasionally been caught out by late calls, and I struggle to keep up on the early calls setting. Maybe I just need to get used to it, but it's difficult to play this game on a crappy PC!

As for innacuracies, they seem fine. A six corner might be flat out when you are going slow, but at speed you often need to back off. Remember that like pattersons pacenotes they are written for a wide variety of cars. When I go through my notes before an event I take out lots of stuff because it doesn't affect a 1.4l in the same way it will affect a WRC focus. It would be a painstakingly long time to get them perfect for every situation, and I think they've done a pretty good job on doing so.

With regards to how the co driver sounds, I'd listen to some real onboards, not just of professional co drivers. It's pretty authentic, because they were recorded with Paul strapped into a motion seat which the game sounds played into his ears, rather than an actor in a voice studio

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I know it's late, but is this issue going to be resolved anytime soon? I had my season ruined yesterday by poor pace notes. I was on a stage at Monte Carlo and my Co- Driver said left 4, so I proceeded to take it as if it was a 4, only to find out that there were ice patches at the apex. Then I go through a tree and receive terminal damage. I know for a fact that he didn't call ice because it wasn't a large section, but it was still enough to catch anyone on the limit out. I know the notes can't be perfect, but at least try to improve the notes on potential hazards on the circuit. 

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JadenCon said:
I know it's late, but is this issue going to be resolved anytime soon? I had my season ruined yesterday by poor pace notes. I was on a stage at Monte Carlo and my Co- Driver said left 4, so I proceeded to take it as if it was a 4, only to find out that there were ice patches at the apex. Then I go through a tree and receive terminal damage. I know for a fact that he didn't call ice because it wasn't a large section, but it was still enough to catch anyone on the limit out. I know the notes can't be perfect, but at least try to improve the notes on potential hazards on the circuit. 
Thats what I call "surprise factor".
This happens in real life. During shakedown you can take notes, hazzards...etc but you just cant know how will be the REAL conditions in race time (this can be the next day).

For example small ice patches can be formed along the night.

Back to topic, yes, yes and yes. Pacenotes can be more accurate... specially the late calls.

In addtion I would like to leave here a link to other thread wich speaks of "blind turns" and accuracy.
http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/7319/improvement-pacenotes-blind-turns

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I'm not sure I 100% disagree with the OP but I completely disagree with the tone of the post.  Completely out of order and yet another example who a keyboard warrior who needs to develop a sense of perspective, or at least learn to communicate it on the internet.

The devs have given us far and away the best pace notes in a rally game ever and all you can do is moan.  Crazy.

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this is totally right. Some tracks are better than others, but Germany and Greece have TERRIBLE notes. There are constantly immediate square turns that the co-driver neglects to mention until you've already gotten airborne off of a 150m straight into a jump. Also, on Greece, there is one track that has a "left 3" about 40 meters from the start line, and it's basically a square turn. I have flown off that cliff so many times... 

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