PAD is too faster than Wheel ! WHY ?

[advanceapple 126]

5 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

HI @advanceapple,

If you publish the times so I can see the delta, that would really help too.

i send you the playlist of the my league. good vision.

[BarryBL 8,574]

Hi everyone, 

Just thought I'd give a bit of an update on some of the work we have done on this topic:

1./ Testing through our Handling department and various other able testers on the game, recording comparative times.

2./ As well as my addition to testing, we have taken a random sample of 20,000 times across Career mode on the same tracks with similar car (Would be the same base car, but with differing R&D paths. Over such a large sample size, these would even out towards equal). This includes 10,000 recorded pad times, and 10,000 recorded wheel times.

3./ deeper analysis of the top 100 times recorded in various scenarios and compared percentages of pad times vs wheel times.

We have noticed that, in terms of pure delta and recorded times across various testing methods, there is a variant of around a tenth of a second a lap between wheel times and pad times across all skill levels. This does vary, with some tracks being marginal for a pad user, and some tracks being marginal for the wheel user. Over the course of a F1 season, or even a series of races, they do equal out.

From a Codemasters perspective, our main aim is to make sure pads and wheels can jump into lobbies together and feel that, if they perform at their best in that session, they could get a good result compared to their overall abilities and speed. With the data we have looked at, we believe that this is currently the case.

If people do spot any extreme cases (tracks, setups, game modes) where the difference is large, please give us the examples and we will try to investigate.

[AdamFreeman 225]

Cant agree with that statement atall. I came from non assist pad to non assist wheel and its a different ball game. Much easier to be consistent on the pad you spin out alot more on the wheel as the traction is different. Pad you get brake feedback!.

From pure one off laptime the time difference isnt much but over a stint the pad is simply much easier!

[aartstyle 108]

You can't fix this codies. It's just a complete different game when using a wheel instead of a pad. Just seperating them in multiplayer or TT will end this discussion. 

[sloppysmusic 1,650]

4 hours ago, advanceapple said:

you're just diverting the problem, 
I'm not surprised it's a **** game. regardless the game should be developed without aid to the driving pad or steering wheel it is. 
you who are of the staff and you tell me that you use aid when a good percentage does not use them well it is all a program for F1 2020 too. 
if you want a piece of advice now that the holidays are coming, turn as much as you can with the steering wheel and then with the pad, just so you can understand the difference between the two devices. 
after I tell you the race pace between pad and steering wheel is very irrelevant. but if you really care, in private, I'll send you a series of links from my league.
for 2020, change the mentality and development of the game because you won't even get to 2021.

Cmon man that's being a little unfair to someone who may actually be playing the game at home in his own time without getting paid here (unless you HAVE applied for overtime Barry!) 

I understand your frustration but we're getting a lot of useful insider info here even if it is not what we actually want to hear. I'd personally love lobbies to be separated into assists /non assists as well as wheel /controller. It's got to be fair they someone who is serious but can't afford a wheel yet (the 10yo just got a new $1000 iPhone for Xmas they are probably tapped out!) to be able to compete with Hardcore wheel users. Esports though, that's a different ball game (totally inappropriate phrase!) 

[Icefalcon 17]

1 hour ago, AdamFreeman said:

Cant agree with that statement atall. I came from non assist pad to non assist wheel and its a different ball game. Much easier to be consistent on the pad you spin out alot more on the wheel as the traction is different. Pad you get brake feedback!.

From pure one off laptime the time difference isnt much but over a stint the pad is simply much easier!

No assist pad is much much easier this year. 100% tested. The rest is just empty words

[LILLHELM 187]

Respect Codemasters is working on the problem!
Too bad the problem has not yet been localized.
In my opinion, the pad advantage is more in the race.

[Ferrethead81 133]

On 11/25/2019 at 8:01 PM, advanceapple said:

 

this will be the last time I go back to the pad vs. steering wheel issue, after which you have to get over it and look at other racing games that currently outclass and not just F1. in this video haas vs Mclaren or Pad vs Wheel on the paul ricard track where you need a scary traction and mileage. ALL NO ASSIST. to note that the pad with respect to the steering wheel does not suffer from understeer and indeed has greater insertion in the curve besides the fact that when it scales it almost never blocks the front ones. instead the steering wheel has a lot of understeer and a greater steering angle as well as not having the same distance in the curves and the locking is really too easy on the front wheels.
 now it's your turn. @BarryBL

 

Oh wow, I always knew pad had traction control built in, but didn’t realise it was like this for understeer. That’s insane. 

[advanceapple 126]

11 hours ago, Ferrethead81 said:

Oh wow, I always knew pad had traction control built in, but didn’t realise it was like this for understeer. That’s insane. 

according to barry, everything is in order. to you the wide sentence of how ridiculous they are.

[AdamFreeman 225]

Its even nore noticable when you go back to pad after using a wheel. Much less fun of course but theres a reason league players are going tcam and pad rather than a locked in cockpit wheel combo.

Annoys me how the supposed best esporters are not forced to race in cockpit mode and use wheels.

[ShelbyUSA 194]

On 1/16/2020 at 3:25 AM, BarryBL said:

Hi everyone,

I've heard back from the handling team on this one. 

Regarding our handling model, we have based this on reactions that would make sense as much as possible. Our handling team have had engineers on telemetry analyse the game, and they were pleased with how the cars reacted to setup changes. 

So I could go back to the handling team with any developments, can you please provide me with quantifiable examples (and supporting telemetry and data) where you feel the telemetry does not match with your expectations in game. This way we can check the physics in game and attempt to recreate your findings. 

 

I just saw this. you need to consult outside your team and get a real perspective. 

 

[advanceapple 126]

19 minutes ago, ShelbyUSA said:

I just saw this. you need to consult outside your team and get a real perspective. 

 

 

I was told that I had to do the times with both the pad and the steering wheel and compare them. now I say, how can you tell me such a thing after I have been driving with the steering wheel for 3 years to return to the pad ?. obviously it is normal that the pad times will be higher. from then on, total darkness.

[ShelbyUSA 194]

3 minutes ago, advanceapple said:

 

I was told that I had to do the times with both the pad and the steering wheel and compare them. now I say, how can you tell me such a thing after I have been driving with the steering wheel for 3 years to return to the pad ?. obviously it is normal that the pad times will be higher. from then on, total darkness.

TRL Limitless's video should be a great eye opener to all at Codemasters. 

[advanceapple 126]

Just now, ShelbyUSA said:

TRL Limitless's video should be a great eye opener to all at Codemasters. 

money money money. pad pad pad . OVERPOWER!!

[ShelbyUSA 194]

if i was a wheel manufacturer, i would be ******.

[ChasteWand 178]

3 hours ago, ShelbyUSA said:

I just saw this. you need to consult outside your team and get a real perspective. 

 

Interesting however not related to setup in any way.

Three key points for me in the video,

The pad overall is more forgiving than the wheel.

The reason the pad is more forgiving is due to the braking and accelerator feedback given by vibration, not available with wheel and pedal sets. I would also argue the deadzone in the pads steering would reduce over correction of oversteer compared to a wheel.

The wheel has an advantage in high speed corners because the range of movement is greater compared to the pad giving greater accuracy, moreover in high speed chicanes/complexes (Silverstone, COTA) the deadzone of the controller limits speed of turn through the centre of the steering. The wheel has no such limitation.

Personally I think it's way past time for pedal sets to have a vibration feature. Playing with a wheel is far more immersive than a pad and I can never go back to the pad. Even if the pad is currently faster, I frankly don't care. Likewise I don't care for the t cam verses cockpit argument. T cam is faster period, a superior view of the track, cockpit for me is where it's at. Immersion factor again. I'd like a realistic as possible experience and given the games physics /setup model are serious flawed in terms of real simulation and the bugs/ issues that plague career mode and the core game, it is not for me. Asseto Corsa, Project Cars, Automobilista, RRE are all vastly superior in my opinion, even if I'd love to have the f1 career experience, the car tuning and driving experience are sadly lacking. I shall remain an interested observer, but I live in hope, maybe codemasters can get it right...

 

 

[BarryBL 8,574]

Hi @ShelbyUSA @advanceapple,

I've moved this to the pad vs wheel thread as it more suited to there.

To de-construct the video, I have the following points:

•  TRL Limitless, by his own admission, performed his best lap on the pad which was 0.227 seconds down on his best wheel, which he also said he would be confident he can improve upon in the video
• All of his PB's in this video are with a wheel. (This would make sense as he is a wheel user)
•  At around 12:05- 12:20, TRL also says in the video there is "absolutely no competition" in the lock-to-lock steering on the wheel compared to the pad.
•  He also states that, although he feels he can find 95% of his available performance in a shorter time using the pad, finding his peak performance would come through practice on the wheel. The pad is going to be a more 'pick up and play' item because not everyone has a wheel available.
•  I would like to see a video of a top pad player who doesn't have a wheel doing the same video. 

To sum up, a lot of what @ChasteWand says applies here. The fundamental times (so the actual lap times) are very similar from experienced pad users compared to experienced wheel users from our leaderboard data. Its just the 2 ways of playing the game, with two different controllers, have 2 different profiles and different strengths and weaknesses against each other. However, over the course of a lap, the times are similar. 

Its also about the player experience, something that we have tried to get as correct as possible. Immersion for a wheel will naturally be much more than a pad, and will give the player more understanding. However, not everyone can be in the position (space, time, money etc) to be able to invest in a wheel setup but might also be huge fans of the sport and the game. 

Therefore, we have attempted to give everyone, regardless of time, space and money, the opportunity to maximise their performance on the game, with enough time, effort and practice. And from our lap time delta, wheel and pad users can compete in the same arena and we aim for this to be the case. 

[aartstyle 108]

Even thought about the possibility to seperate them?  Make seperate leaderboards in tt and give the host of a multiplayer race the option to allow pad or wheel players.

Problems solved.

 

 

 

[BarryBL 8,574]

Hi @aartstyle,

Good question, one of the first ones I had on the topic when I started.

Our aim is to have as many people battling it out, regardless of how they play, in a fair and competitive manner. 

 

 

[aartstyle 108]

2 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

Hi @aartstyle,

Good question, one of the first ones I had on the topic when I started.

Our aim is to have as many people battling it out, regardless of how they play, in a fair and competitive manner. 

 

 

You give the host also the option to restrict assists. So why don't you restrict the controllers? Let the host choose for "all controllers" only pad/wheel/keyboard". Or even better let the host also choose for which view is allowed (cockpit/tv pod/both.....)

 

A fair competition is not possible in my opinion (and I think many of us).

 

[Icefalcon 17]

Another solution is back to F1 2018 (where pad and wheel were better balanced)

Please don't forget this thead in F1 2020

[advanceapple 126]

43 minutes ago, Icefalcon said:

Another solution is back to F1 2018 (where pad and wheel were better balanced)

Please don't forget this thead in F1 2020

 

would be the best thing.

[SpringbokGamer 87]

Why limit the Custom Lobby hosts Options ?

 

Thats why its Called "Custom Lobby" , so that we can customise to our liking

[dwin20 129]

On 1/21/2020 at 9:16 AM, BarryBL said:

Hi @aartstyle,

Good question, one of the first ones I had on the topic when I started.

Our aim is to have as many people battling it out, regardless of how they play, in a fair and competitive manner. 

 

 

In the leaderboards along with showing what assists are being used could you add whether the person was using a wheel or pad?

[AdamFreeman 225]

Cant agree atall with the arguement. If I go pad and tcam its almost unfair how much faster I am compared to wheel.