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Does the game have too much grip?

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advanced pool based on hardware used. I have included the hardware option, because I would like to see if the realism option is not necessary to be included in future patches due to difference in hardware used by gamers.

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No, but i do think there could be some fine tuning here and there, i think anything post group B is a bit too grippy and everything before seems okay, i'd say that people need to take gradients into account when thinking of braking, uphill they will obv work better and down worse, flat in between. so yeah. Its not far off imho apart from post group B (group b not included)  


For example you do a wet race on wales and tell me there is too much grip! or a snowy one on Monte .... :')

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Monte is especially off (watch the last video, if You want, watch the whole first episode showing Monte, You can see Loeb running studded tires an Solberg running slicks- DiRT is nothing like it). I gues I'd have to post the usuall set of videos on the topic:

(fast forward to 9m56s)
https://youtu.be/NsI-OZgArak?t=9m56s
In real life You'd be done. In DiRT You don't need to brake before the corner.

http://www.twitch.tv/ca4s/c/6623511 
Good example at 0:55. Car stops over few meters.
For a contrast- here is how long it takes to brake from sixth gear into left two short corner:
(ff to 1m00s)
https://youtu.be/AaP1vNZCCSU?t=1m
Straight from Greece:

(ff to 0m53s)
https://youtu.be/gAPbS9Viw3M?t=53s
here is braking from sixth gear into thirth (it's 3 tightens, colin uses gear description instead angle system)

(ff to 0m29s)
https://youtu.be/5a4X6n4igus?t=29s
Notice how long it takes him to slow down, AND HE STILL GOES TOO FAST!

I strongly recommend for everyone to watch whole fideo (it's just 7 mins long) as there is also some great gravel footage. Car dances from corner to corner. Not in DiRT.
Monte Carlo
(ff to 21m33s)
https://youtu.be/gTAoNbjNVuE?t=21m33s
Here You can see how much more sideways cars go in real life, in DiRT You have too much grip to do that kind of cornering. Also again notice breaking points- much longer breaking distances:
https://youtu.be/Dq2S1CH_UuU?t=21s
That subaru has very sophisticated active differentials modern age WRC are missing due to FIA regulations, so in theory Fiesta WRC should dance even more.

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You know that you can change how much grip your tyres have don't you SamRWD. The tyre file has 2 grip settings in it, grippy and not so grippy (can't remember what their real names are), it's set to really grippy as standard, but you can change it over. And of course, you must know that you can change brake pressure by selecting Adnvanced Settings on Brakes in the Car ASet Up page in game.

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You know that you can change how much grip your tyres have don't you SamRWD. The tyre file has 2 grip settings in it, grippy and not so grippy (can't remember what their real names are), it's set to really grippy as standard, but you can change it over. And of course, you must know that you can change brake pressure by selecting Adnvanced Settings on Brakes in the Car ASet Up page in game.
Yes, I know all of that, I am running that tyre grip mod and it is MUCH better, but still far from perfect. I don't know if we even should discuss Monte Carlo, because it is so innacurate, that I'm thinking it is pre alfa physics on that rally. Thanks!

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On the ice? Yeah, lots of swinging from side to side as I try to find some grip
I was asking "are You're experiencing this https://youtu.be/gTAoNbjNVuE?t=21m33s ?"
Because I am willing to take time recording an onboard showing otherwise tommorow. Can You please record Your showing similar behaviour as in real life footage, please?

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You could brake this question down into a million sections. I'd brake it down into do you think it has too much grip and do you think Richard burns rally is 100% realistic? Or maybe do you have real world rally experience or are you just guessing?

because the majority of people who have real world experience think it's fine, including world rally driver Kevin Abbring

im not saying the game is perfect just yet, but it's minor tweaks to a few things, not a general overhaul of grip levels

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I haven't noticed any problems for the most part, I lose traction when I expect to (over crests, bad camber, using handbrake, braking too hard downhill) and keep grip in dips etc. Some tweaking might be beneficial on some surfaces but I don't have any issues losing traction when I try.

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It's more like there's grip levels in the wrong directions. There's a lot of longitudinal bite but turning feels somewhat restrictive even on gravel. Isn't it the other way around?

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You could brake this question down into a million sections. I'd brake it down into do you think it has too much grip and do you think Richard burns rally is 100% realistic? Or maybe do you have real world rally experience or are you just guessing?

because the majority of people who have real world experience think it's fine, including world rally driver Kevin Abbring

im not saying the game is perfect just yet, but it's minor tweaks to a few things, not a general overhaul of grip levels
Hello! I am posting a raw footage from real life that clearly shows different car behaviour. Here is another one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYjW5idn9pc

 I could post real life videos over and over, is there a set number them that could convince You, or are You suggesting that DiRT Rally is real world, and video I've posted has too little grip?
The reason I've divided pool this way is to check if my suspiction is right. I suspect that most users that think the grip level is accurate are gamepad users, and those of us who are more used to real life physics are sim racers using wheels. If I am right, it makes a perfect sense to add an realism (difficulty) option in menu. Current phyiscs are perfect for gamepads, adjusted, more real physics settings would suit sim oriented customers.
As for real life drivers opinion- Richard Burns Rally was produced with close cooperation with Richard Burns, but people are saying it is not realistic. On the other hand You've mentioned Kevin Abbring, so his opinion makes Your statement true all of sudden? BTW. If You want real drivers opinion, I'd forward You to:

http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/dirt-rally-out-on-steam-early-access.104618/page-14
As for myself- I used to drive few rallysprints in order to achieve a rally licence, but it was too costy to complete required numbers of starts. But it doesn't matter- like I said many times before video footage doesn't lie. It is not dependent on personal preferences, assumptions etc. If I said the grip is right right now, it wouldn't make it any more realisic. If I say I feel it is too tight, it doesn't mean nothing either. But if I back my statement with a real life video, I have a proof which You lack.
Just out of curiousity- could direct me where I can find Kevin Abbring's review of current physics?
EDIT
I've just noticed suggestion box section opened . I am thinking about proposing adding another realism settings in the options menu. Current settings that are appreciated by certain players would remain untouched, on the other hand sim racers would get accurate physics.  I DON'T WANT CURRENT PHYISCS TO BE CHANGED FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO LIKE IT. I WANT ANOTHER REALISM OPTION TO BE ADDED WITH PHYSICS RESEMBLING REAL WORLD IN A MORE ACCURATE WAY.
What do You think guys?

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Problem is sam its YOU that cannot get things sideways. Like i said before everything before and including group B  is definitely slidey enough. (maybe excluding the audi quattro)

I play with all the assists turned off, no hud, and ha pattern and clutch mode in game and my G27

this is the ford escort mk2, please note, slidey everywhere,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EAHu-cildk

and consider the speed i am travelling when you think about the braking distance.

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Exactly, it's not a complete physics overhaul that is needed, just maybe a tweak if one or two cars, such as the fiesta.

its all well and good posting real life videos of WRC drivers, but these guys are the best in the world in the best cars in the world. It shouldn't be easy to replicate what they are doing in game

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As others have mentioned, the problem is not simply a question of too much grip.
But the fact that one cannot power-oversteer a RWD car out of a hairpin (tarmac) clearly tells that something is not quite right.

As Walter Röhrl used to say: "Real driving starts when you steer the car with the throttle"

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Thank You for Your input to the discussion, it's much appreciated. I've posted bunch of WRC footage- reason being there is plenty of that on Youtube (many with telemetry included), and we have two modern WRC cars in the game. Now You're posting an old classic RWD car showing me, that "it's not the game physics, it's Sam's fault for not being able to drive sideways". I am willing to adress that.
RBR is said to be untralisticly difficult. Yet I am perfectly capable of applying exactly the same techniques as in real world drivers. Not because I want to replicate their driving techniques in replays, but because that's the fastest way to travel. Yes, those drivers are the best on the planet. Therefore their sideways driving style has nothing to do with showing off, or forcing the car to go sideways for a sake of doing so, but because it is the fastest way to travel. They are the best, so if going a 1- 2 degree less sideways was the way to go, they'd do it.

In fact I've just finished second in a small racedepartament tournament driving Fiat Abarth 131 loosing 4 seconds to a winner (I made two stupid mistakes- rallying is cruel ;) ). RBR with NGP physics is the most realistic rallying experience. I am not posting footage from RBR though, because everywhere on this board RBR is considered "unrealistic". If I can drive relatively well in too difficult RBR, I should be perfectly capable of going as much sideways as real cars do. I cannot.
I will record direct comparison of that car and real world onboards comparing breaking distances, . I would like to do Fiesta WRC comparison instead due to number of onboards, but You've just said it needs tweaking, so I don't want to waste my time on that. The experiment would look like this: I show side by side worlds best drivers driving Subaru Impreza WRC and me- guy from the internet- driving a Group A Subaru. Obviously I should have much longer braking distance- I will simply lock the wheels, and that's it, while real world drivers will do all the magic they do to make the car stop quicker. On top of that I will be driving non WRC car- a clear dissadvantage. I WILL NOT record a corner passing footage, because there always be the same argument "You just cannot drive sideways".
Here is sample onboard, I'd look up similar stuff, but for Subaru:
https://youtu.be/d-EQ7h7EtoQ?t=4m27s
Actually I've just found an example:
https://youtu.be/NGpbFgfMdDY?t=54s
https://youtu.be/5a4X6n4igus?t=31s 
I cannot imagine anything more clear- car goes fast, then starts breaking. I'd set up wet conditinos when possible to put DiRT on as much dissadvantage as possible compared to ral world conditions. Same test for all three rallies.
If You have a better idea, let me know. I am listening.
At the same time here is my challenge to You guys. Could You post any real life Subaru onboard and post Your onboard driving this car that resemble real life footage?
One last thing- I promise, if this kind of mathematical experiment still does not convince You, I am giving up on this game. No more complains from me, etc. I just cannot fight this fight if raw, clear data shows I'm right, and it is still not enough.
Thanks!

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6e66o said:
As others have mentioned, the problem is not simply a question of too much grip.
But the fact that one cannot power-oversteer a RWD car out of a hairpin (tarmac) clearly tells that something is not quite right.

As Walter Röhrl used to say: "Real driving starts when you steer the car with the throttle"
That's exactly how RWD driving works. You follow the road with a steering wheel, and control the slide with a throttle. I could post a great training video by a driver who was second in Europe Rally Championship and was 31th on A class FIA priority list, but it's not English, so noone could understand.

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Switch OFF assist and use H-shifter withc clucth. That makes the difference :dizzy: 
I vote on No I use steering wheel, because i think the grip seems realistic on most surfaces.

ps: I used to play with RBR since a decade long ago.

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mesa said:
Switch OFF assist and use H-shifter withc clucth. That makes the difference :dizzy: 
I vote on No I use steering wheel, because i think the grip seems realistic on most surfaces.

ps: I used to play with RBR since a decade long ago.
Hello! Thank You for Your input. I don't know why would You suspect I am using any kind of assist. I am looking for a realistic sim, asissts are unrealistic, and I am not using any features that do not add to a sim experience. Also, are You willing to comment on my previous posts- especially one with my proposition of doin a side by side comparision test regarding brake distances, or on Monte Carlo footage I've posted showing Loeb and Solberg driving on ice/ snow? I would also like to quote myself:
At the same time here is my challenge to You guys. Could You post any real life Subaru onboard and post Your onboard driving this car that resemble real life footage?

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SamRWD said:
6e66o said:
As others have mentioned, the problem is not simply a question of too much grip.
But the fact that one cannot power-oversteer a RWD car out of a hairpin (tarmac) clearly tells that something is not quite right.

As Walter Röhrl used to say: "Real driving starts when you steer the car with the throttle"
That's exactly how RWD driving works. You follow the road with a steering wheel, and control the slide with a throttle. I could post a great training video by a driver who was second in Europe Rally Championship and was 31th on A class FIA priority list, but it's not English, so noone could understand.
The RWD cars on gravel is absolutely fine. The back end steps out without problem but yet you feel the tires digging in giving you traction out of hairpins. When it comes to tarmac, that is a different story.

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So, according to the now multiple polls, with the various ways of asking the same simple question...

NO the game does not have to much grip, regardless your a pad user or a wheel user or even if its the third Wednesday of the month.

Thought so.

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Well, I must admit I am really surprised. It proved that this community is happy with current physics. As I said before- I'm out of here, this is not my type of a rally sim. I am trully happy You guys are having fun. I also hope some of sim guys will look past physics and make some mods for You after they become supported. Take care, SamRWD out!

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