Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  

Does the game have too much grip?

Recommended Posts

This is a very interesting read and I'll reserve my judgment until I've played it more and possibly until the FFB patch comes out.

At times it may look/seem that the cars have too much grip, but often the speeds through hairpins or turns appear very close to what I would expect.

The cars most of the time have the right amount of traction out of corners, but the feeling of lack of it at times does not come through the feedback to the player.

I'll need more time to fully make up my mind, but my feeling is that a small tweak may help, but it's not a dealbreaker by any means.

In case of the Group B cars I can powerdrift them around corners and I expect that to be the case once I upgrade the car. They should have a bit more wheelspin, but I don't think they're far off being perfect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My point of view is simple, since you can't flick it properly, it is wrong. Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah I can't do a flick at all, spent the last week trying..could do it on a dime in Richard Burns Rally. It's a lot more satisfying to be able to correct the car when it slides properly and that's what rally is really about..my 2c.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ahrian said:
I voted NO, but I have to review my vote. I think that the grip is OK with RWD and FWD cars, but there is slightly to much grip with AWD cars. I suppose we should be able to make some powerdrifts on gravel stages with 400 BHP AWD monster. currently it's impossible. 
Thank You for this post. My respect for being open minded about this stuff. Cheers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've been trying to make a 95 Scooby behave like the ones in @SamRWD's videos. I First of all I tried it in a standard Scooby, with no tuning, no luck. Next I tried the fully upgraded one, with no tuning, still no luck. So I did the 'Instant Oversteer' set up.



It felt looser, but the brakes were still too keen, so I softened them.



Better, But it still felt as thought e car was being pulled around the track, so I looked at the Center Diff Ratio.



I changed the ratio one notch at a time, slowly I felt the car acting more and more like I expected it to. Until I reached this ratio.



That did it. Now the car was finally pushing itself around the corners. :smiley:

I went and looked up Center Diff Ratio's on WRC cars and found this page http://www.awdwiki.com/en/subaru/

I haven't tried the low grip tyres yet.

Video https://youtu.be/GdQ9jljNEO8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did you see haydn paddon's run? That looked really good. I agree about the braking, it's a bit too sudden and the car should maybe be a bit more unsettled, but for the most part I still think it's pretty good

And it's been mentioned before, fair enough comparing this game to real life, but stop comparing the handling to Richard burns rally, it's not helpful

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've been trying to make a 95 Scooby behave like the ones in @SamRWD's videos. I First of all I tried it in a standard Scooby, with no tuning, no luck. Next I tried the fully upgraded one, with no tuning, still no luck. So I did the 'Instant Oversteer' set up.



It felt looser, but the brakes were still too keen, so I softened them.



Better, But it still felt as thought e car was being pulled around the track, so I looked at the Center Diff Ratio.



I changed the ratio one notch at a time, slowly I felt the car acting more and more like I expected it to. Until I reached this ratio.



That did it. Now the car was finally pushing itself around the corners. :smiley:

I will post a video of the car on River Severn Valley (when it finally uploads to youtube). While I'm waiting, I went and looked up Center Diff Ratio's on WRC cars and found this page http://www.awdwiki.com/en/subaru/

I haven't tried the low grip tyres yet.

That's the most interesting post I've read on this forum for a long time. The only strange thing is brake balance- full rear means it works pretty much like a handbrake. Real life driving techniques involve a delicate touch of a brake when sliding a car, normally it increases a slide angle a bit, but with this setting I am not sure how it would work. Anyways can't wait to see how it goes on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The braking is just personal preference. If I stamp on the brake it still causes the car to step out, I was just trying different pressures and this one seemed to work best on Gravel. I reduced it once more for tarmac

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Before
http://youtu.be/MbW7lWy_lPY

After
http://youtu.be/GobmczCEy1k

I'll have to say Yes, too much grip, wheel G27
xml UNMODDED

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
@Ledanek
Thanks for posting this! On the side note I recommend tighting up a rear diff a lot- makes the car react to the throttle much more realistic way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
stop comparing the handling to Richard burns rally, it's not helpful
+1
IT´S NOT HELPFUL??? HAHAHA. That madness !!! As an example, the Spanish rider "Jose Antonio Suarez" WRC Academy driver, trains weekly with RBR.
Here some videos to prove it. Please, if we make a simulator .... let's be serious. If what you want is an arcade game for kids .... you there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHdSH_mUC1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Qc7ZSILeA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWD1gYjXpJw

Better example impossible !!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The point is that constantly referring to RBR is not helping. The fact that you're calling it RBR is even less helpful as RBR is the original game, with no mods. What you're calling RBR is actually called RBRSR, RBR with mods. Once you run all the mods it is so different a game that it's like comparing DiRT Rally with DiRT Showdown.

Pointing out that the handling is different between the 2 games is pointing out the obvious, and not very helpful. Pointing out why they are different, would be helpful. Pointing out how to correct the differences would be infinitely more helpful.

Everybody on this forum knew that the 2 games D:R and RBRSR would be compared, it's inevitable, both are , or will be, rally sims. The guys who work on D:R already know about RBRSR, they too, are aware that is what D:R will be compared to and they already know what it's capable of. When we (the forum members on here) asked CM to make the next DiRT as a rally sim we told them we wanted it to be like RBRSR, but better.

CM are trying to deliver.

They put it on Early Release so they could find and correct mistakes while the game was still in progress. They have already acknowledged that they need to work on wheels handling and the FFB, which this thread is about.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The point is that constantly referring to RBR is not helping. The fact that you're calling it RBR is even less helpful as RBR is the original game, with no mods. What you're calling RBR is actually called RBRSR, RBR with mods. Once you run all the mods it is so different a game that it's like comparing DiRT Rally with DiRT Showdown.

Pointing out that the handling is different between the 2 games is pointing out the obvious, and not very helpful. Pointing out why they are different, would be helpful. Pointing out how to correct the differences would be infinitely more helpful.

Everybody on this forum knew that the 2 games D:R and RBRSR would be compared, it's inevitable, both are , or will be, rally sims. The guys who work on D:R already know about RBRSR, they too, are aware that is what D:R will be compared to and they already know what it's capable of. When we (the forum members on here) asked CM to make the next DiRT as a rally sim we told them we wanted it to be like RBRSR, but better.

CM are trying to deliver.

They put it on Early Release so they could find and correct mistakes while the game was still in progress. They have already acknowledged that they need to work on wheels handling and the FFB, which this thread is about.



Obviously, when I say RBR I am referring to RSRBR and mods ...

I understand what you mean.

I am sad to see that the physical may seem too arcades. For example, you've noticed that if you desacelerate only ... yo can draw 90% of the curves? A rally car has a lot of inertia, so as to skid braking. It is an important point to improve.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alwert said:
stop comparing the handling to Richard burns rally, it's not helpful
+1
IT´S NOT HELPFUL??? HAHAHA. That madness !!! As an example, the Spanish rider "Jose Antonio Suarez" WRC Academy driver, trains weekly with RBR.
Here some videos to prove it. Please, if we make a simulator .... let's be serious. If what you want is an arcade game for kids .... you there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHdSH_mUC1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Qc7ZSILeA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWD1gYjXpJw

Better example impossible !!
While I agree with pretty much all of what Skiddy said, its funny that you bring up Suarez using RBR as if that justifies it as a "true Sim" and the only way it should be. Kevin Abbring plays and says its pretty good, by that logic Dirt Rally is a bona fide simulator.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FlakHound said:
Alwert said:
stop comparing the handling to Richard burns rally, it's not helpful
+1
IT´S NOT HELPFUL??? HAHAHA. That madness !!! As an example, the Spanish rider "Jose Antonio Suarez" WRC Academy driver, trains weekly with RBR.
Here some videos to prove it. Please, if we make a simulator .... let's be serious. If what you want is an arcade game for kids .... you there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHdSH_mUC1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Qc7ZSILeA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWD1gYjXpJw

Better example impossible !!
While I agree with pretty much all of what Skiddy said, its funny that you bring up Suarez using RBR as if that justifies it as a "true Sim" and the only way it should be. Kevin Abbring plays and says its pretty good, by that logic Dirt Rally is a bona fide simulator.
Dirt Rally is a bona fide simulator? are you sure about that ?? Surely in the future be, but now I'm sorry. NOT A REAL SIMULATOR. Although I hope to become a good simulator ... it has good future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I invite you to that you see this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6tEZ-EaJzk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Got this today and have only had an hour or so on it. I went straight to the Mk2 Escort, its not bad but it needs more power, less traction when the LSD isnt locked and a physics change to facilitate a 1.5 way LSD  where you can A- dump the clutch to lock the LSD (back axle) to provide a massive increase in traction to propel it forwards and/or drive it sideways in true mk2 style... and B- be able to use the other side of the LSD plates (the .5 bit) to provide heavy friction across the axle between both rear wheels (half lock?) to aid turn in/throw it sideways, like you would in real life.

 The GrpB cars nearly have the right amount of lateral (cornering) grip, overall should be slightly less IMO..  and at high speeds the floaty, non precise feel is probably not a million miles away but its definately too linear and mushy at low speeds, its the the grip cut off point thats simply not sharp enough, it almost feels like it doesnt have one.. you should be able to pick far more precise cornering lines like you can in RBR at lower speeds when not beyond the grip threshold, instead the steering just feels consistantly mushy and vague over too wide an area over too wide a speed range,  The grip physics do need fettled but maybe improved FFB will also help portray it a bit better.

Initial impressions are that the physics engine just is not as advanced as it could be, In RBR/RSRBR every component in the drive train and suspension provides real variable data values that are synchronised and also interact with the data from all other components, effectively providing a hugely variable grip output for all four individual wheels which is exactly how a good engineer would approach designing/coding a physics engine... and the outcome is simply far more realistic. It doesnt feel like codies have done it this way but if they have, the coding does need played with... lets hope so, because its a very pretty game and may have superb potential.

Traction- the Grp B cars have far too much traction on the throttle in the lower gears Imo, with that kind of power we should have to meter it in to stay within the grip threshhold in the first two gears at least, again go look at the high powered cars in RSRBR.

VERY IMPORTANT- We also need to be able to assign a clutch to a button so that those of us who dont have clutch pedals can prod a steering wheel button to raise the revs and stop the engine bogging down or to cause oversteer mid corner ie; in a hairpin. This would make a huge difference to the game overall, I cant overstate that enough.

Ill have a go of the WRC cars tomorow and report back with my opinion on them..

Edit- Just to say I have competed on gravel events at club level in recent years (Grp4 Mk2) so have a little technical knowledge and experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The physics could be better and the way the cars scale as they get better feels a bit strange, some of those AWD cars are a bit insane on certain surfaces compared to others. To be honest though I think "too much grip" is a bit of an oversimplification. I don't think lowering friction coefficients will fix what people are feeling. Hopefully the ffb patch will help, cos countersteer makes no sense at the moment. I will think about this more after the patch. When I originally voted I'd only tried the first few tiers of cars, which still feel pretty good to me (on most surfaces).

I have no real experience driving on ice though so the one that feels dodgy to me I can't really comment on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alwert said:
FlakHound said:
Alwert said:
stop comparing the handling to Richard burns rally, it's not helpful
+1
IT´S NOT HELPFUL??? HAHAHA. That madness !!! As an example, the Spanish rider "Jose Antonio Suarez" WRC Academy driver, trains weekly with RBR.
Here some videos to prove it. Please, if we make a simulator .... let's be serious. If what you want is an arcade game for kids .... you there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHdSH_mUC1A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58Qc7ZSILeA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWD1gYjXpJw

Better example impossible !!
While I agree with pretty much all of what Skiddy said, its funny that you bring up Suarez using RBR as if that justifies it as a "true Sim" and the only way it should be. Kevin Abbring plays and says its pretty good, by that logic Dirt Rally is a bona fide simulator.
Dirt Rally is a bona fide simulator? are you sure about that ?? Surely in the future be, but now I'm sorry. NOT A REAL SIMULATOR. Although I hope to become a good simulator ... it has good future.
It wasn't a serious comment, I was saying by using your logic the same thing can be applied to DiRT Rally. Just because a WRC driver likes it or plays it, doesn't make it the end all be all simulator. They're working on and improving the game, hence why it's in Early Access. Perhaps everyone who finds the game "too arcadey" should just continue playing RBR until the full release?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm.. These polls are sometimes hard to answer because so black and white options.
I emphasis on the word little and only some fine tuning of physics / grip, which i guess is bound to happen anyway. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For now I can not vote one way or another .

Without the FFB been sorted out correctly & not having to use hacks & modded files.

I can give my clear thoughts on the lack of grip or not.

You will also soon find out this is one of those questions that will run & run more so with sim people.

Too much or not enough grip arguments ahve been going back & forth for just aboput ever sim I have ever owned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think, depending on the car... Ancient cars were more difficult to stop by the weight load (inertia moment) and older non-effective brakes like modern cars...

This could be only a fine tunning of parameters for each car... I think...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I voted no after driving the Fulvia for some hours. Now, after switching to the 131 and some tweaks to the steering, I'm not so sure. Sometimes it feels like there's too much grip. Or maybe I'm not driving fast enough. So, undecided right now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sfcpaulo said:
Got this today and have only had an hour or so on it. I went straight to the Mk2 Escort, its not bad but it needs more power, less traction when the LSD isnt locked and a physics change to facilitate a 1.5 way LSD  where you can A- dump the clutch to lock the LSD (back axle) to provide a massive increase in traction to propel it forwards and/or drive it sideways in true mk2 style... and B- be able to use the other side of the LSD plates (the .5 bit) to provide heavy friction across the axle between both rear wheels (half lock?) to aid turn in/throw it sideways, like you would in real life.

 The GrpB cars nearly have the right amount of lateral (cornering) grip, overall should be slightly less IMO..  and at high speeds the floaty, non precise feel is probably not a million miles away but its definately too linear and mushy at low speeds, its the the grip cut off point thats simply not sharp enough, it almost feels like it doesnt have one.. you should be able to pick far more precise cornering lines like you can in RBR at lower speeds when not beyond the grip threshold, instead the steering just feels consistantly mushy and vague over too wide an area over too wide a speed range,  The grip physics do need fettled but maybe improved FFB will also help portray it a bit better.

Initial impressions are that the physics engine just is not as advanced as it could be, In RBR/RSRBR every component in the drive train and suspension provides real variable data values that are synchronised and also interact with the data from all other components, effectively providing a hugely variable grip output for all four individual wheels which is exactly how a good engineer would approach designing/coding a physics engine... and the outcome is simply far more realistic. It doesnt feel like codies have done it this way but if they have, the coding does need played with... lets hope so, because its a very pretty game and may have superb potential.

Traction- the Grp B cars have far too much traction on the throttle in the lower gears Imo, with that kind of power we should have to meter it in to stay within the grip threshhold in the first two gears at least, again go look at the high powered cars in RSRBR.

VERY IMPORTANT- We also need to be able to assign a clutch to a button so that those of us who dont have clutch pedals can prod a steering wheel button to raise the revs and stop the engine bogging down or to cause oversteer mid corner ie; in a hairpin. This would make a huge difference to the game overall, I cant overstate that enough.

Ill have a go of the WRC cars tomorow and report back with my opinion on them..

Edit- Just to say I have competed on gravel events at club level in recent years (Grp4 Mk2) so have a little technical knowledge and experience.

Be aware that the stock MK2 Escort only have 212BHP. Fully upgraded it's 250. Normally people should upgrade the car fully before judging grip/performance and so on.

I'm split about grip levels. Sometimes it feels right, sometimes it feels wrong. I was extremely skeptical to Monte at first, but after driving some more with the WRC it feels quite good on dry tarmac, should be more slippery on ie/snow though. The RWD cars def have too much grip on tarmac though, however, it improves to set the tires to low_grip. Now I can actually power out of hairpins while the back end steps out.


The car decelerates too quickly by just letting off the throttle as someone mentioned. Feels like you are applying some brakes.


Friction/grip is something Codemasters can tweak easily though according to Coleman.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×