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Does the game have too much grip?

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sfcpaulo said:
Got this today and have only had an hour or so on it. I went straight to the Mk2 Escort, its not bad but it needs more power, less traction when the LSD isnt locked and a physics change to facilitate a 1.5 way LSD  where you can A- dump the clutch to lock the LSD (back axle) to provide a massive increase in traction to propel it forwards and/or drive it sideways in true mk2 style... and B- be able to use the other side of the LSD plates (the .5 bit) to provide heavy friction across the axle between both rear wheels (half lock?) to aid turn in/throw it sideways, like you would in real life.

 The GrpB cars nearly have the right amount of lateral (cornering) grip, overall should be slightly less IMO..  and at high speeds the floaty, non precise feel is probably not a million miles away but its definately too linear and mushy at low speeds, its the the grip cut off point thats simply not sharp enough, it almost feels like it doesnt have one.. you should be able to pick far more precise cornering lines like you can in RBR at lower speeds when not beyond the grip threshold, instead the steering just feels consistantly mushy and vague over too wide an area over too wide a speed range,  The grip physics do need fettled but maybe improved FFB will also help portray it a bit better.

Initial impressions are that the physics engine just is not as advanced as it could be, In RBR/RSRBR every component in the drive train and suspension provides real variable data values that are synchronised and also interact with the data from all other components, effectively providing a hugely variable grip output for all four individual wheels which is exactly how a good engineer would approach designing/coding a physics engine... and the outcome is simply far more realistic. It doesnt feel like codies have done it this way but if they have, the coding does need played with... lets hope so, because its a very pretty game and may have superb potential.

Traction- the Grp B cars have far too much traction on the throttle in the lower gears Imo, with that kind of power we should have to meter it in to stay within the grip threshhold in the first two gears at least, again go look at the high powered cars in RSRBR.

VERY IMPORTANT- We also need to be able to assign a clutch to a button so that those of us who dont have clutch pedals can prod a steering wheel button to raise the revs and stop the engine bogging down or to cause oversteer mid corner ie; in a hairpin. This would make a huge difference to the game overall, I cant overstate that enough.

Ill have a go of the WRC cars tomorow and report back with my opinion on them..

Edit- Just to say I have competed on gravel events at club level in recent years (Grp4 Mk2) so have a little technical knowledge and experience.

Be aware that the stock Escort only puts out 212BHP while the fully upgraded one is at 250BHP. And yes I also wanna be able to give my clutch some good kicking ;)

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sfcpaulo said:
Got this today and have only had an hour or so on it. I went straight to the Mk2 Escort, its not bad but it needs more power, less traction when the LSD isnt locked and a physics change to facilitate a 1.5 way LSD  where you can A- dump the clutch to lock the LSD (back axle) to provide a massive increase in traction to propel it forwards and/or drive it sideways in true mk2 style... and B- be able to use the other side of the LSD plates (the .5 bit) to provide heavy friction across the axle between both rear wheels (half lock?) to aid turn in/throw it sideways, like you would in real life.

 The GrpB cars nearly have the right amount of lateral (cornering) grip, overall should be slightly less IMO..  and at high speeds the floaty, non precise feel is probably not a million miles away but its definately too linear and mushy at low speeds, its the the grip cut off point thats simply not sharp enough, it almost feels like it doesnt have one.. you should be able to pick far more precise cornering lines like you can in RBR at lower speeds when not beyond the grip threshold, instead the steering just feels consistantly mushy and vague over too wide an area over too wide a speed range,  The grip physics do need fettled but maybe improved FFB will also help portray it a bit better.

Initial impressions are that the physics engine just is not as advanced as it could be, In RBR/RSRBR every component in the drive train and suspension provides real variable data values that are synchronised and also interact with the data from all other components, effectively providing a hugely variable grip output for all four individual wheels which is exactly how a good engineer would approach designing/coding a physics engine... and the outcome is simply far more realistic. It doesnt feel like codies have done it this way but if they have, the coding does need played with... lets hope so, because its a very pretty game and may have superb potential.

Traction- the Grp B cars have far too much traction on the throttle in the lower gears Imo, with that kind of power we should have to meter it in to stay within the grip threshhold in the first two gears at least, again go look at the high powered cars in RSRBR.

VERY IMPORTANT- We also need to be able to assign a clutch to a button so that those of us who dont have clutch pedals can prod a steering wheel button to raise the revs and stop the engine bogging down or to cause oversteer mid corner ie; in a hairpin. This would make a huge difference to the game overall, I cant overstate that enough.

Ill have a go of the WRC cars tomorow and report back with my opinion on them..

Edit- Just to say I have competed on gravel events at club level in recent years (Grp4 Mk2) so have a little technical knowledge and experience.

Be aware that the stock Escort only puts out 212BHP while the fully upgraded one is at 250BHP. And yes I also wanna be able to give my clutch some good kicking ;)

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bogani said:
sfcpaulo said:
Got this today and have only had an hour or so on it. I went straight to the Mk2 Escort, its not bad but it needs more power, less traction when the LSD isnt locked and a physics change to facilitate a 1.5 way LSD  where you can A- dump the clutch to lock the LSD (back axle) to provide a massive increase in traction to propel it forwards and/or drive it sideways in true mk2 style... and B- be able to use the other side of the LSD plates (the .5 bit) to provide heavy friction across the axle between both rear wheels (half lock?) to aid turn in/throw it sideways, like you would in real life.

 The GrpB cars nearly have the right amount of lateral (cornering) grip, overall should be slightly less IMO..  and at high speeds the floaty, non precise feel is probably not a million miles away but its definately too linear and mushy at low speeds, its the the grip cut off point thats simply not sharp enough, it almost feels like it doesnt have one.. you should be able to pick far more precise cornering lines like you can in RBR at lower speeds when not beyond the grip threshold, instead the steering just feels consistantly mushy and vague over too wide an area over too wide a speed range,  The grip physics do need fettled but maybe improved FFB will also help portray it a bit better.

Initial impressions are that the physics engine just is not as advanced as it could be, In RBR/RSRBR every component in the drive train and suspension provides real variable data values that are synchronised and also interact with the data from all other components, effectively providing a hugely variable grip output for all four individual wheels which is exactly how a good engineer would approach designing/coding a physics engine... and the outcome is simply far more realistic. It doesnt feel like codies have done it this way but if they have, the coding does need played with... lets hope so, because its a very pretty game and may have superb potential.

Traction- the Grp B cars have far too much traction on the throttle in the lower gears Imo, with that kind of power we should have to meter it in to stay within the grip threshhold in the first two gears at least, again go look at the high powered cars in RSRBR.

VERY IMPORTANT- We also need to be able to assign a clutch to a button so that those of us who dont have clutch pedals can prod a steering wheel button to raise the revs and stop the engine bogging down or to cause oversteer mid corner ie; in a hairpin. This would make a huge difference to the game overall, I cant overstate that enough.

Ill have a go of the WRC cars tomorow and report back with my opinion on them..

Edit- Just to say I have competed on gravel events at club level in recent years (Grp4 Mk2) so have a little technical knowledge and experience.

Be aware that the stock MK2 Escort only have 212BHP. Fully upgraded it's 250. Normally people should upgrade the car fully before judging grip/performance and so on.

I'm split about grip levels. Sometimes it feels right, sometimes it feels wrong. I was extremely skeptical to Monte at first, but after driving some more with the WRC it feels quite good on dry tarmac, should be more slippery on ie/snow though. The RWD cars def have too much grip on tarmac though, however, it improves to set the tires to low_grip. Now I can actually power out of hairpins while the back end steps out.


The car decelerates too quickly by just letting off the throttle as someone mentioned. Feels like you are applying some brakes.


Friction/grip is something Codemasters can tweak easily though according to Coleman.



If it feels wrong sometimes, it's wrong ;) It should feel accurate all the time IMHO.

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Sorry for multiple post. Messages was not going through at first.

Well Sam, I would love to have a perfect game that feels accurate 100% but no game meets that. Probably never will. Don't say things can't be improved though ;)

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I have done a rally experience in a WRC STI competition spec similar the blue one in the video above. Ill tell you now your driving all wrong.. believe it or not you use the throttle to get the back out and dab brakes to transfer weight and make the car break into a slide.


I can use my real world advice (from a rally driver) and use the same technique in DR and it feels quite authentic to me. This is on gravel.... tarmac I don't think feels right far too snappy and grippy.. that I do agree with.

However something that doesn't help right now is the wrong steering locks given to pretty  much all wheels... it looks like your not steering much when the game wheel doesn't match the physical wheel.


But its all early.

Gravel I think is pretty perfect. 

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Group B is definitely a bit of a joke with the current traction available.  The Audi Quattro feels like I'm driving a Cadillac Coupe Deville through a parking garage.  The newer WRC cars are even worse.  They literally feel like they drive on train rails.  As a matter of fact the only cars I find somewhat fun and challenging are the 70's and 80's RWD classes.  Still though even the RWD's @ Monaco completely breaks any sense of immersion I felt prior during the Wales and Greek rallies.  The grip on asphault atm is comparable to running velcro tires over astroturf.  No traction loss at WOT during opposite lock on a tarmac hairpin in a 300bhp vehicle is pretty bad folks.  Even a console game like Forza Motorsports on the xbox360 has better simulated grip and tirespin than this "sim" does.

Come on Codies get these physics and tire grip levels updated !!  This and proper FFB should be the first priorities on the patch list.   

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On gravel, cars are fine. One could argue that the most powerful ones could be a little more slippy, but mostly you just need to press on more to make things slide around.

BUT, the tarmac surface is clearly too grippy. Inducing a slide using throttle should be much easier, even in 4WD cars, let alone RWD. I don't think the difference to real life is very big, but tarmac does feel too sticky.

Now, about gravel: The more I drive this game, the more I like it. I feel gravel grip is fine. To all people who say the 4WD cars don't handle realistically on gravel, just check out this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5dRcpgQa4g (not driven by me, but the things you see on the vid are definitely repeatable)

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From my time spent off-roading and dirt biking in various terrain across California, I feel that the grip levels across the current environments are pretty realistic. When you come across deep gravel, sand, etc. in the real world, it takes a lot of throttle to get a vehicle to slide, which DiRT Rally seems to realistically simulate, unlike previous CM games, where it felt like you were driving around on concrete scattered with marbles (just my two cents).

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On gravel, cars are fine. One could argue that the most powerful ones could be a little more slippy, but mostly you just need to press on more to make things slide around.

BUT, the tarmac surface is clearly too grippy. Inducing a slide using throttle should be much easier, even in 4WD cars, let alone RWD. I don't think the difference to real life is very big, but tarmac does feel too sticky.

Now, about gravel: The more I drive this game, the more I like it. I feel gravel grip is fine. To all people who say the 4WD cars don't handle realistically on gravel, just check out this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5dRcpgQa4g (not driven by me, but the things you see on the vid are definitely repeatable)

Please notice that You don't have to brake. Look at that left 3 (ff to 1:11). He enters it on 5th gear and the gravel (aka a layer of a liquid concrete in DiRT Rally) stops him. It is also clearly visible starting from around 3:08 when he "brakes" into a two right. It is just a matter of pressing a brake for a second, or two. Then at 5:38 You see the most clearly how the cars stops over couple meters. Maybe 5 meters to fully stop a car on a gravel (looks like damp gravel to me) from a practically 5th gear...I've posted numerous examples of real life footage on previous pages to compare it to real life car behaviour.

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SamRWD said:

On gravel, cars are fine. One could argue that the most powerful ones could be a little more slippy, but mostly you just need to press on more to make things slide around.

BUT, the tarmac surface is clearly too grippy. Inducing a slide using throttle should be much easier, even in 4WD cars, let alone RWD. I don't think the difference to real life is very big, but tarmac does feel too sticky.

Now, about gravel: The more I drive this game, the more I like it. I feel gravel grip is fine. To all people who say the 4WD cars don't handle realistically on gravel, just check out this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5dRcpgQa4g (not driven by me, but the things you see on the vid are definitely repeatable)

Please notice that You don't have to brake. Look at that left 3 (ff to 1:11). He enters it on 5th gear and the gravel (aka a layer of a liquid concrete in DiRT Rally) stops him. It is also clearly visible starting from around 3:08 when he "brakes" into a two right. It is just a matter of pressing a brake for a second, or two. Then at 5:38 You see the most clearly how the cars stops over couple meters. Maybe 5 meters to fully stop a car on a gravel (looks like damp gravel to me) from a practically 5th gear...I've posted numerous examples of real life footage on previous pages to compare it to real life car behaviour.

+1

Sam is exactly right.   Braking in Dirt Rally is equivalent to an F1 car with full brake pressure on tarmac.  You can also scrub off speed while corning like a fly stuck in molasses.  The physics engine needs some serious attention from the devs.  Watching these in-game replays just makes these issues all the more apparent.  You can tell this driver is at WOT 95% of the stage and just turning sharp into the corners to scrub speed.  No brake modulation...no throttle modulation...completely unrealistic and a bit silly to be currently labeled a "sim".  If driving a rally car was this simple then we would all be the next Colin Mcrae.  Keeping my fingers crossed improvements will come though! :)  


Hopefully the arcade racers can have this version and the sim racers can have a more hardcore mode with updated driving physics.  Then Codemasters doesn't lose out on potential sales from both crowds.

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OK, braking is one thing, lateral grip is another. I'm not an expert on braking distances of rally cars, but I do know people are always surprised how well a WRC car stops on gravel or even snow, when they have passenger rides in them.

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OK, braking is one thing, lateral grip is another. I'm not an expert on braking distances of rally cars, but I do know people are always surprised how well a WRC car stops on gravel or even snow, when they have passenger rides in them.
Please look back. At previouss pages You'll find real life footage I've posted to compare.

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I've been following world rally for 30 years thank you very much :D

And I did say it's a different thing speaking about braking grip vs lateral grip. I agree that braking feels a little too strong, but laterally, there's less inaccuracy. On the whole, I'd say reduce braking power by 25%, reduce lateral grip by 10% and, on tarmac, make it 15%. 

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Grip is very odd one to judge fully , with the current FFB short coming .
Though knowing CM it will be out.
I think the whole car set-up section is way to simple for a modern race based game/or sim.
The whole slider based car set-up screen I find dated even for some thing that is classed as simcade.
These days most if not all racing games have some sort of in-depth car set-up screen or screens

Gears ratios should be gear by gear  with final drive & diff setting setting of their own.
Same goes for Steering ratios.
Tyre Compounds & types 
Springs Dampers .
Roll bars 
Toe in toe out.
Camber plus & minus.
Castors setting 
Brake balance.

I mean this is very much standard stuff in out top flight PC based games.
If CM really want to convince PC players they means business  then they have to bring it up-to the standards 
setting wise to AC or P-cars  or  R-factor or the many others that have fuller menus for car set-up.

I think this could be a very good rally sim & even allowing for it been at the alpha stag so things I do not find adding up.
The FFB should have been better seeing how CM keep saying they have Rally drivers testing the game .

@ Bogani the CM forums are a little buggy so no worries about multi posts.



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mesa said:
Switch OFF assist and use H-shifter withc clucth. That makes the difference :dizzy: 
I vote on No I use steering wheel, because i think the grip seems realistic on most surfaces.

ps: I used to play with RBR since a decade long ago.
Yea, we have a expert here ! :) (just laughts, do not take it personally) because the H-shifter with clutch affect grip... 

You can't understand that is the only way to feel the grip because the game physics engine doesn't use any kind of built-in assists. If you can't imagine, you must be a blind fool.

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mesa said:


Thanks for that video- great example at circa 0:10 . Look how quickly car slows down (despite going off the road!).

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Grip is very odd one to judge fully , with the current FFB short coming .
Though knowing CM it will be out.
I think the whole car set-up section is way to simple for a modern race based game/or sim.
The whole slider based car set-up screen I find dated even for some thing that is classed as simcade.
These days most if not all racing games have some sort of in-depth car set-up screen or screens

Gears ratios should be gear by gear  with final drive & diff setting setting of their own.
Same goes for Steering ratios.
Tyre Compounds & types 
Springs Dampers .
Roll bars 
Toe in toe out.
Camber plus & minus.
Castors setting 
Brake balance.

I mean this is very much standard stuff in out top flight PC based games.
If CM really want to convince PC players they means business  then they have to bring it up-to the standards 
setting wise to AC or P-cars  or  R-factor or the many others that have fuller menus for car set-up.

I think this could be a very good rally sim & even allowing for it been at the alpha stag so things I do not find adding up.
The FFB should have been better seeing how CM keep saying they have Rally drivers testing the game .

@ Bogani the CM forums are a little buggy so no worries about multi posts.



Grip is very odd one to judge fully , with the current FFB short coming .
Though knowing CM it will be out.
I think the whole car set-up section is way to simple for a modern race based game/or sim.
The whole slider based car set-up screen I find dated even for some thing that is classed as simcade.
These days most if not all racing games have some sort of in-depth car set-up screen or screens

Gears ratios should be gear by gear  with final drive & diff setting setting of their own.
Same goes for Steering ratios.
Tyre Compounds & types 
Springs Dampers .
Roll bars 
Toe in toe out.
Camber plus & minus.
Castors setting 
Brake balance.

I mean this is very much standard stuff in out top flight PC based games.
If CM really want to convince PC players they means business  then they have to bring it up-to the standards 
setting wise to AC or P-cars  or  R-factor or the many others that have fuller menus for car set-up.

I think this could be a very good rally sim & even allowing for it been at the alpha stag so things I do not find adding up.
The FFB should have been better seeing how CM keep saying they have Rally drivers testing the game .

@ Bogani the CM forums are a little buggy so no worries about multi posts.



Make sure you look at the Advanced Settings for tuning, not just the first screen that pops up. There are some very in depth options including camber, toe, caster, springs, in depth damper ect.

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still practicing those two tight hairpins
G27 Wheel...no mods...just trying different settings.
http://youtu.be/emypHk5E_UU

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Grip is very odd one to judge fully , with the current FFB short coming .
Though knowing CM it will be out.
I think the whole car set-up section is way to simple for a modern race based game/or sim.
The whole slider based car set-up screen I find dated even for some thing that is classed as simcade.
These days most if not all racing games have some sort of in-depth car set-up screen or screens

Gears ratios should be gear by gear  with final drive & diff setting setting of their own.
Same goes for Steering ratios.
Tyre Compounds & types 
Springs Dampers .
Roll bars 
Toe in toe out.
Camber plus & minus.
Castors setting 
Brake balance.

I mean this is very much standard stuff in out top flight PC based games.
If CM really want to convince PC players they means business  then they have to bring it up-to the standards 
setting wise to AC or P-cars  or  R-factor or the many others that have fuller menus for car set-up.

I think this could be a very good rally sim & even allowing for it been at the alpha stag so things I do not find adding up.
The FFB should have been better seeing how CM keep saying they have Rally drivers testing the game .

@ Bogani the CM forums are a little buggy so no worries about multi posts.




Alot of what you are asking for are actually there when your team have gained enough experience with the car. It's called advanced setup :)

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Ok guys. The behaviour of cars decelerating waay to quick when letting off the throttle, this problem is identified by the devs and they know how to solve it.

The Audi is the best example of this. You hardly have to brake in that car, just let off the throttle. Maybe it's the drivetrain friction causing this.

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In real life car slows down when letting the throttle go and NOT pressing the cluth, so with old Group B cars's stiff diffs it should be even more apparent, however I don't think that this is why DiRT behaves this way, and on top of that it is way too exaggerated. Can't wait for a fix.

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bogani said:
Ok guys. The behaviour of cars decelerating waay to quick when letting off the throttle, this problem is identified by the devs and they know how to solve it.

The Audi is the best example of this. You hardly have to brake in that car, just let off the throttle. Maybe it's the drivetrain friction causing this.
Is there a link to a post where the devs said they are working on this issue?

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I drive a 2012 Subaru Impreza 2.0i with a CVT transmission. It's a front Bias  AWD econobox. It's more tail happy than what I am experiencing in dirt rally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTMyhCnyyKw

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