Assists faster vs Non-Assists?

[koog2003 257]

I, of course, like every respectable and serious player of this game have disabled all the assists. Assists are for beginners and definitely affect the way you enjoy this game. 

What I find preposterous is that people racing with assists enabled are allowed to set their race time in the leaderboards, which is completely unfair.

How can you compete fairly when you have all Assists disabled against some newbie with all the Assists enabled ? Of course his/her times will be better with the assists ... 

Players using Assists should not be able to set their race times in the leaderboards.

@PJTierney did you think about this guys or not ?

Edited December 2, 2019 by koog2003

[cflot 28]

....totally agree....

If someone wants to check what the assists can achieve must simply compare the times of Daily's/weekly's etc events ...players with assists on, are most of the times 5-15 seconds faster....in comparison with DR 1, there is no bonus when you deselect an assist..... it seems  that Codemasters sacrifice any point of simulation in DR 2.0 and prefer to satisfy the mass of the mediocre players.....

I also want to know Mr.PJTierney's position about this and if there are any second thoughts for correction of this "simracing Waterloo".....

[PJTierney 4,754]

If something's legal/allowed and you are faster because of it, use it to optimise your chances of winning 😉 

 

That does open up a wider conversation however about whether assists are generally faster than racing without them, like they are for other some cars/games (the faster cars in Forza Motorsport 7 require TCS to be competitive). I'm not a strong enough player to test this myself though I'm sure a few commenters on the forum have done the research already.

 

Finally, if you want a way to take on players without Assists, Clubs allows you to disable them entirely.

[Johnnnn 173]

47 minutes ago, PJTierney said:

I'm not a strong enough player to test this myself though I'm sure a few commenters on the forum have done the research already.

You liar! 😄 You must have at least ten times more hours in racing games than me.

I like in Forza Rivals you can see what others use. I remember usualy everything off for first places but sometimes it's hard to believe with 500+ HP RWD car on a wet 😄

[richie 521]

2 hours ago, koog2003 said:

I, of course, like every respectable and serious player of this game have disabled all the assists. Assists are for beginners and definitely affect the way you enjoy this game. 

What I find preposterous is that people racing with assists enabled are allowed to set their race time in the leaderboards, which is completely unfair.

How can you compete fairly when you have all Assists disabled against some newbie with all the Assists enabled ? Of course his/her times will be better with the assists ... 

Players using Assists should not be able to set their race times in the leaderboards.

@PJTierney did you think about this guys or not ?

I think there's a little contradiction in your sentiment. No assist makes players, especially new players, magically faster, and why are assists only for beginners? That is also a completely false assumption in the 'simracing community' that only newbies use assists. They use the word 'realistic' a lot but then ridicule people who actually use TCS and ABS in GT3s e.g. despite the fact these cars do have these assists IRL. Everyone should use whatever they're comfortable with, without being labelled as noob in my view.  

If you think assists will make you faster, why not use them too? 

[koog2003 257]

6 minutes ago, richie said:

I think there's a little contradiction in your sentiment. No assist makes players, especially new players, magically faster, and why are assists only for beginners? That is also a completely false assumption in the 'simracing community' that only newbies use assists. They use the word 'realistic' a lot but then ridicule people who actually use TCS and ABS in GT3s e.g. despite the fact these cars do have these assists IRL. Everyone should use whatever they're comfortable with, without being labelled as noob in my view.  

If you think assists will make you faster, why not use them too? 

You dont understand the point. The point is not eliminating Assists or saying people should not use them. It is about not having their times in the same leaderboard of the pro which are not using ANY assist cause the game is 100x more fun (and realistic) without them. 

What is a shame is having their race times merged with the ones of the pro drivers without assists. This is completely unfair. It is like having two different car classes racing in the same category ! Do you understand now ?

Edited December 2, 2019 by koog2003

[koog2003 257]

1 hour ago, PJTierney said:

That does open up a wider conversation however about whether assists are generally faster than racing without them, like they are for other some cars/games (the faster cars in Forza Motorsport 7 require TCS to be competitive). I'm not a strong enough player to test this myself though I'm sure a few commenters on the forum have done the research already.

Thank you for your answer PJ. I am pretty sure that with the Assists on I could improve my times of even 20 seconds (if not more) but that is CHEATING man. If you know how to drive and you want to enjoy this game to the fullest (and in the most possible realistic way) you have to drive without assists. If you ask around every good player here would be disgusted just by the idea of using Assists. We are not cheaters we love this game but we want to compete fairly. There should be two different leaderboards one for pro drivers without assists and one for noobs with assists. 

I am going to record a video later to show how much time I can get if I enable assists. Really it is something that has too be looked into @PJTierney exactly like the big problem with the weather effects in VR making the driver basically unable to see the track.

Edited December 2, 2019 by koog2003

[koog2003 257]

1 hour ago, PJTierney said:

If something's legal/allowed and you are faster because of it, use it to optimise your chances of winning

That is nothing but cheating @PJTierney ..... no way sorry.

You could argue: "if it is allowed it is not cheating". I would answer: "Technically no in reality enabling the Assists makes DR2 as easy as an arcade game and the furthest thing from realism and fun ever". 

I am rather sure, even though I cant prove it unfortunately, that the top of all leaderboards is full of players with Assists ON.

Edited December 2, 2019 by koog2003

[koog2003 257]

2 hours ago, cflot said:

....totally agree....

If someone wants to check what the assists can achieve must simply compare the times of Daily's/weekly's etc events ...players with assists on, are most of the times 5-15 seconds faster....in comparison with DR 1, there is no bonus when you deselect an assist..... it seems  that Codemasters sacrifice any point of simulation in DR 2.0 and prefer to satisfy the mass of the mediocre players.....

I also want to know Mr.PJTierney's position about this and if there are any second thoughts for correction of this "simracing Waterloo".....

I so much agree with you man. I really hope @PJTierney will forward this internally to be fixed once for all. 

[richie 521]

15 minutes ago, koog2003 said:

You dont understand the point. The point is not eliminating Assists or saying people should not use them. It is about not having their times in the same leaderboard of the pro which are not using ANY assist cause the game is 100x more fun (and realistic) without them. 

What is a shame is having their race times merged with the ones of the pro drivers without assists. This is completely unfair. It is like having two different car classes racing in the same category ! Do you understand now ?

No, it's not like having 2 different classes. I really don't know how you come to these conclusions. The point is that 'no assists' isn't necessarily 'pro'. There is the leaderboard, you can set a time there and decide whether you want to use assists or not. There's nothing unfair about it. It's not even clear if any assist gives you an advantage at all. TCS e.g. reduces the power sent to the wheels as soon as it detects slip but it also slows you down because you don't have all the HP available so it does help you not spinning out but it does not make you faster. 

[Johnnnn 173]

Can you check assists anywhere in leaderboards? I didn't see it in DR2.

[koog2003 257]

Just now, richie said:

No, it's not like having 2 different classes. I really don't know how you come to these conclusions. The point is that 'no assists' isn't necessarily 'pro'. There is the leaderboard, you can set a time there and decide whether you want to use assists or not. There's nothing unfair about it. It's not even clear if any assist gives you an advantage at all. TCS e.g. reduces the power sent to the wheels as soon as it detects slip but it also slows you down because you don't have all the HP available so it does help you not spinning out but it does not make you faster. 

@richie now I am working and I cant record a video myself but if you have time give it a quick check. Set all Assists to ON and to the max (5), do one Time trial you usually do and check the difference in the times. We are not talking about some hundredths of a second, we are talking about 15/20 seconds if not more of unfair advantage. Try it yourself. 

[koog2003 257]

3 minutes ago, Johnnnn said:

Can you check assists anywhere in leaderboards? I didn't see it in DR2.

No you cannot unfortunately. There is no way to know if a specific player in the leaderboard used assists or not. 

[Johnnnn 173]

1 minute ago, koog2003 said:

No you cannot unfortunately. There is no way to know if a specific player in the leaderboard used assists or not. 

Ah, it's pretty important for me in Forza, because I can see what others use.

[koog2003 257]

3 minutes ago, Johnnnn said:

Ah, it's pretty important for me in Forza, because I can see what others use.

Let's all hope this will not be a "dropped and abandoned" issue by CM. It is extremely important for the fairness of the game that drivers with assists enabled wont share the same leaderboards with players that actually can drive properly and dont need that kiddie sad little cheats to play.

Edited December 2, 2019 by koog2003

[Johnnnn 173]

2 minutes ago, koog2003 said:

Let's all hope this will not be a "dropped and abandoned" issue by CM. It is extremely important for the fairness of the game that drivers with assists enabled wont share the same leaderboards with players that actually can drive properly and dont need that kiddie sad little cheats to play.

Enhanced leaderboards could be the solution too. But it depends how it works because in Forza you are faster without assists. Current monthly rivals in Horizon 4 has first places without anything and with clutch. Like I said it's a bit strange with very powerful RWD cars because it's maybe not possible but who knows. Dirt could be different and you don't have proper dirt in Forza.

[koog2003 257]

1 minute ago, Johnnnn said:

Enhanced leaderboards could be the solution too. But it depends how it works because in Forza you are faster without assists. Current monthly rivals in Horizon 4 has first places without anything and with clutch. Like I said it's a bit strange with very powerful RWD cars because it's maybe not possible but who knows. Dirt could be different and you don't have proper dirt in Forza.

I can confirm you (and I will prove it with a video shortly this evening) that you will save up to 20 seconds driving normally in any track compared to your normal times if you enable the assists in DR2. It is really an annoying situation which should have been addressed since the beginning IMHO.  

[koog2003 257]

22 minutes ago, richie said:

TCS e.g. reduces the power sent to the wheels as soon as it detects slip but it also slows you down because you don't have all the HP available so it does help you not spinning out but it does not make you faster. 

While it is known and very clear that Assists give you a huge boost in time advantage the fact people without assists are slower is due (relative to the example you just gave) to the fact that the wheels are spinning (as you say) so without assists you are slower than the one with assists. If it would not be the case then what would be the purpose of Assists exactly in your opinion ? 

[Ialyrn 257]

22 minutes ago, koog2003 said:

Let's all hope this will not be a "dropped and abandoned" issue by CM. It is extremely important for the fairness of the game that drivers with assists enabled wont share the same leaderboards with players that actually can drive properly and dont need that kiddie sad little cheats to play.

You are speaking for others again, putting words in the mouths of others; you need to stop doing that. YOU have a problem with people using assists and showing on the same leaderboard, if others agree with you; they need to speak for themselves. You DO NOT speak for others, ever.

Not using assists doesnt make you a "pro player" at all, it doesnt even make you good. I have no issues with someone using TCS or ABS; because not everyone can drive at the same level I can. It does not detract from my enjoyment of the game at all, and it shouldnt do yours eithers. Its just a game, and you are taking it WAY to seriously.

On top of that, to drive fast with the driving assists turned on; a person still needs to be able to drive fast in the first place. Been slow and using an assist wont make you suddenly go from 1000 on the LB to the number 1 spot. It still takes practice, still takes effort, and still takes skill. People who do use the assists which are built into the game by Codemasters themselves, are also not cheaters. So stop calling them such.

29 minutes ago, koog2003 said:

@richie now I am working and I cant record a video myself but if you have time give it a quick check. Set all Assists to ON and to the max (5), do one Time trial you usually do and check the difference in the times. We are not talking about some hundredths of a second, we are talking about 15/20 seconds if not more of unfair advantage. Try it yourself. 

9 minutes ago, koog2003 said:

While it is known and very clear that Assists give you a huge boost in time advantage the fact people without assists are slower is due (relative to the example you just gave) to the fact that the wheels are spinning (as you say) so without assists you are slower than the one with assists. If it would not be the case then what would be the purpose of Assists exactly in your opinion ? 

You also clearly dont understand how the assists even work. TCS reduces the power sent to the driven wheels when they slip, allowing the user to keep better control. But this means you dont have access to all the available power. ABS stops the wheels locking up under braking, which increases the braking distence over someone who isnt using ABS. And again, for the assists to be useful; a person sill needs to be able to drive properly in the first place.
 

22 minutes ago, koog2003 said:

Let's all hope this will not be a "dropped and abandoned" issue by CM. It is extremely important for the fairness of the game that drivers with assists enabled wont share the same leaderboards with players that actually can drive properly and dont need that kiddie sad little cheats to play.

No, it really isnt. And again, the people who use assists are not cheaters. Spare some thought in that head of yours, that some of those people might be less able bodied than you; or young kids. There can be any number of reasons the assists are been used. You really need to get off that high horse you are on, and you need a hefty dose of humble pie!

 

13 minutes ago, koog2003 said:

I can confirm you (and I will prove it with a video shortly this evening) that you will save up to 20 seconds driving normally in any track compared to your normal times if you enable the assists in DR2. It is really an annoying situation which should have been addressed since the beginning IMHO.  

You want to prove it, then beat my current time on "Hamelahti" at Finland on the steam version of the game. I dont use assists at all, and use 1080° of steering rotation with soft locking enabled. So have at it -

 

P.S can you please stop posting multiple messages in tandem. Its not hard to multi quote in a single post, the forum does it for you. You just need to press the + symbal below the post you want to quote to add multiple quotes in one go, or you can presse the "quote" button on each individal post instead.

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Ialyrn

[warpengage 177]

Traction control is a double-edged sword in rally because it depends on the surface and the conditions. On smooth tarmac, TC can be an advantage because eliminating wheelspin can, but not always, make you faster off of slow corners. On gravel, TC has the opposite effect, especially if it's too intrusive. The way gravel tires find grip is by digging through the loose rocks on top to find the compact dirt below. Wheelspin is what helps the wheels dig faster to reach the grip, so limiting their slip will only slow you down. Not to mention, slippery surfaces can keep on constantly triggering your TC and cutting power when you don't want it, as rally drivers often use power to correct for a grip loss, hence the sliding.

[Ialyrn 257]

2 minutes ago, warpengage said:

Traction control is a double-edged sword in rally because it depends on the surface and the conditions. On smooth tarmac, TC can be an advantage because eliminating wheelspin can, but not always, make you faster off of slow corners. On gravel, TC has the opposite effect, especially if it's too intrusive. The way gravel tires find grip is by digging through the loose rocks on top to find the compact dirt below. Wheelspin is what helps the wheels dig faster to reach the grip, so limiting their slip will only slow you down. Not to mention, slippery surfaces can keep on constantly triggering your TC and cutting power when you don't want it, as rally drivers often use power to correct for a grip loss, hence the sliding.

Exactly this, TCS would only really benifit on tarmac stages where keeping traction at all times is key to fast times.

[Jake Cushing 774]

It's an unsatisfactory situation. Assists should ideally see a segregation of rankings. Or a time penalty, less ideally. 

[koog2003 257]

@lalyrn (why there is no way to tag you ?) all that massive post of yours just not to acknowledge the simplest of the things. If there are two categories of players (assists on / assists off) while there cannot be two different leaderboards ? 

 

17 minutes ago, Ialyrn said:

You want to prove it, then beat my current time on "Hamelahti" at Finland on the steam version of the game. I dont use assists at all, and use 1080° of steering rotation with soft locking enabled.

I am not Colin McRae and I am not sure I am as good as you. What would that prove exactly in your opinion ? If I do the same track (regardless the track conditions) with assists on and assists off there is a difference of 10/15 seconds on average. I have tried it myself I am not talking to give air to my lungs .. I have tried it I know what I am talking about !

All your speculations about the effects of the assists dont take in consideration the fact that DR2 is not the real world at all and assists are not working the same way they work in real life (not at all). It would be very nice if they would but they dont.

I just ask for two separated leaderboard is it such an awful preposterous unacceptable thing for you ? It makes perfect sense and WE agree with that. Me and a lot of other people and please stop attacking me because it is quite annoying and PLUS it is NOT the first time you are doing this. Sorry to be straight but it is the way I am.

Edited December 2, 2019 by koog2003

[koog2003 257]

3 minutes ago, Jake Cushing said:

It's an unsatisfactory situation. Assists should ideally see a segregation of rankings. Or a time penalty, less ideally. 

THANK YOU JAKE ! I am alone right @lalaeinstein ? Sure. All alone I talk for myself and that is it. Shut up really.

[richie 521]

Can anyone who knows DIRT Rally inside out confirm that assists make you up to 20 secs. faster? I seriously struggle to believe this.