Jump to content

Setup Guide Now LIVE

Recommended Posts

Hi everyone,

In case you have missed it, the first two sections of the setup guide are now on our blog.

Part 1 is here

Part 2 is here

Part 3 is here

**NEW** Part 4 is here

Hope it helps come race weekend!

If people have a read and have any feedback for me, please let me know. We are planning to release updated and improved variants of a setup guide for future titles moving forward, and anyway I can make it better and be useful to more people is really appreciated!

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Interesting read Bazza I do feel thi s is where the games have always fell short we have no data to properly set up the car. Am I too slow I dont know cause my team mate could be using a bunch of engines combinations and wear. What engine is he on ect ect.

If I am struggling for example under steering or sliding around too much something like the Project car race engineer would be a good starting point, instead its just a guess to what works or not in the F1 games unless your a seasoned pro who knows his stuff.

Would be nice to know what set up our team mate is running aswell.

Edited by AdamFreeman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've only glanced at the items, but this is very useful information indeed. I just need to understand the theory behind the setups in order to create my own.  Mentioning which  tracks require certain settings is also very vital information.  Very helpful posting, at least to me, indeed! 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the feedback 👍

I can look into adding what would be good for certain tracks should I do anything like this again in the future for sure.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So BarryBL, for all these components to work and emulate real world physics, you must code for air atmospherics in the game, yes?  Drum roll please! 

  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gents... If you haven't already, download RST Software. Its probably the most comprehensive Telemetry Sim Software to date. I would love to analyze @BarryBL best practices to see if its inline with real world best practices. Stay tuned and I will generate a comparison analysis... This should be fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, ShelbyUSA said:

Wait, never mind... Should have known. I just read the "blog." 🙄

Hi @ShelbyUSA,

Please elaborate on this. If there is anything I can improve with the setup guides (format, content that's more relevant etc) that I can use for future titles, please let me know. 🙂 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, BarryBL said:

Hi @ShelbyUSA,

Please elaborate on this. If there is anything I can improve with the setup guides (format, content that's more relevant etc) that I can use for future titles, please let me know. 🙂 

Sorry for being brash, but, this is what we are struggling with. Very simple. Real world logic vs. Codemasters logic. For Example: There are quite a lot of telemetry data to support my cars behavior if its understeering/oversteering and/or etc... Adjusting to those unfavorable characteristics seems to be a struggle with a quite a few racers like myself. When I use real world logic, the car doesn't change (reducing or increasing rake, height, etc). If I use Codemaster logic then it will. Its understanding Codemaster's logic in relation to the blog is more helpful than trying to mirror the game to physics that doesn't exist. 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, ShelbyUSA said:

Sorry for being brash, but, this is what we are struggling with. Very simple. Real world logic vs. Codemasters logic. For Example: There are quite a lot of telemetry data to support my cars behavior if its understeering/oversteering and/or etc... Adjusting to those unfavorable characteristics seems to be a struggle with a quite a few racers like myself. When I use real world logic, the car doesn't change (reducing or increasing rake, height, etc). If I use Codemaster logic then it will. Its understanding Codemaster's logic in relation to the blog is more helpful than trying to mirror the game to physics that doesn't exist. 

 

 

Shelby hits the nail on the head here. IRL the cars handling is affected by multiple characteristics which the race team can modify, using telemetry gathered during practice, to better suit each track. Sometimes a car is handling so badly on all tracks that an actual redesign might be necessary to improve the car. For instance the overall car model might be conflicting with the front and rear wings so that they produce competing or undesirable airflow around the car. In this situation nothing you can do with a screwdriver and a wrench (over simplifying!) will save the car, instead you need to design and build new wings entirely (or a new body). The GOOD thing IRL is that science is predictable and mathematical formulae exist to help you learn from telemetry exactly what you need to change with the car to get the desired result (rotation, over/understeer, high speed cornering grip etc). 

The problem with the F1 games recently is that the telemetry exists as in irl (although somewhat simplified) and the setup changes also exist that mirror real world options BUT the logical real life connection between the two does NOT. All those setup changes DO change the handling but they seem to have arbitrary handling results instead. Instead of changing the handling in the way physics would predict the Codies model jumps ahead and mimics what the designers think you are trying to achieve without actually altering anything realistically. This way of doing things might actually work if noone bothers to get serious (by studying telemetry) and accepts the car is not going to perform exactly how you want. However anyone who uses the in game telemetry to diagnose and predict how the cars need to be tweaked discovers pretty quickly there is a missing link between the performance data and the actual car setups available that are supposed to INFLUENCE the data. 

That's about as simple as I can do, and I realize I may have failed in explaining it well to everyone. Here's a simile that might do the job better! 

Imagine Codies run a coffee shop. Your favorite beverage is a cappuccino so you order one and sit down to enjoy it. You realize that it's normal for them not to know your actual taste preferences so decide to work with them to get a better tasting coffee. You have a mate with you as backup. Your mate tells Codies his coffee is too strong so they take his cup, go out back, pour half the contents out and fill the cup up with hot water. They bring it back and your mate agrees it now is not as strong as before. There is still something not quite right but as requested it's not so strong so he gives a thumbs up and drinks it anyway.

You being the scientific dude, bring your lab analysis gear with you as you want to fine tune the coffee and get the perfect result. You analyze the caffeine content, pH, carb and sugars in the beverage and predict the sugars are actually making the coffee not taste as strong as it should so you decide a better solution is to add sugar. This keeps the caffeine presence which you want for performance but also loses the bitter edge to the drink. You pass your dialusis charts to Codies with a smug grin expecting to get the perfect coffee for your needs back. However Codies just do the same as they did with your friend. They pour half the coffee away and replace it with hot water. You get the coffee back and complain it's lost all kick and tastes weak. Your buddy says well its not as strong as you wanted right, so problem solved? No!! 

Of course in the above scenario you do not KNOW what Codies are doing in the kitchen with your coffee, all you DO know is that there is less caffeine in the tweaked cup. 

So what we want here Codies, is one of the following but preferably #2! 

#1 Tell us what the heck you are doing in the kitchen to our coffee when we ask for changes. 

#2 Learn to make better coffee without resorting to quick fixes and shortcuts! 

🤔🚗😁

PS I now realize my own morning coffee was stronger than usual... By some margin! 

Edited by sloppysmusic
  • Like 2
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sloppysmusic Amazing post. @BarryBL you asked to elaborate, and which we spend our time to help you out. Actually, its funny that we spend our time responding well constructed thoughts to help you and your team improve this "eSports" platform, and we don't get even a response or a thanks, or that is a great idea. @sloppysmusic , quite a few others, and I are not shaming, whining, complaining, or/and just pointing out problems. We are suggesting solutions to make the game better, not worse. And all we get is silence. Actually, we should get paid, but, we are not asking for that. We are asking for engagement, as we are willingly to engage with you and your team. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ShelbyUSA said:

@sloppysmusic Amazing post. @BarryBL you asked to elaborate, and which we spend our time to help you out. Actually, its funny that we spend our time responding well constructed thoughts to help you and your team improve this "eSports" platform, and we don't get even a response or a thanks, or that is a great idea. @sloppysmusic , quite a few others, and I are not shaming, whining, complaining, or/and just pointing out problems. We are suggesting solutions to make the game better, not worse. And all we get is silence. Actually, we should get paid, but, we are not asking for that. We are asking for engagement, as we are willingly to engage with you and your team. 

 

you have not understood that he is not interested in anything, only money.
they don't care if the game is bad. those 6 7 patches will always come out and then the game dies.
when he says "it's the most supported title" it's ********, it's more supported just because the months go by and not because the patches come out. 
we have been waiting for the safety car for 3 years. I said everything.
  • Agree 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @ShelbyUSA,

Thanks for your feedback. In regards to the 'delay', I just wanted to see what other people thought too, and @sloppysmusic has, in my opinion, put that nicely. (Remember, I do have to go home at some point 😛 )

As you can imagine, the answer for this one would come straight from the handling department and, I'm guessing here, will be quite the technical one. I understand your points, but I'd like to get you a more in-depth explanation from the experts!

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, advanceapple said:

you have not understood that he is not interested in anything, only money.
they don't care if the game is bad. those 6 7 patches will always come out and then the game dies.
when he says "it's the most supported title" it's ********, it's more supported just because the months go by and not because the patches come out. 
we have been waiting for the safety car for 3 years. I said everything.

@advanceapple,

Please check below thread for the initial notes on the next patch, coming out this month. 

 

  • Disagree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@BarryBL

Thanks for the reply here on the car setup/handling model. This indeed is a big design flaw in the game and has been well explained in both shelby and sloppys posts. This openness is refreshing, I hope that we together as a community can deliver some positive results.

It is a part of the game that has always baffled me as the car setup adjustments don't reflect reality. Wing adjustments seem to work as expected, however the suspension geometry, springs (no dampers)/anti roll and tyre model are nonsensical. There can be no physics simulation in the game, or if there is, it operates under different physical laws. Your guide is good but the game does not live up to real life expectations!

I think your developers should go have a chat with the developers at SMS now you are in the same company. Whilst I understand the F1 game is designed to be accessible and the developers might not want the level of detail in the project cars setup options, there is a middle path to be found. SMS certainly have the knowledge and understanding the F1 development team appear to lack. Perhaps then we can have a more realistic simulation of car and tyre physics.

If you guys can get this working as it should I might even buy the next game...

 

Edited by ChasteWand
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi everyone,

I've heard back from the handling team on this one. 

Regarding our handling model, we have based this on reactions that would make sense as much as possible. Our handling team have had engineers on telemetry analyse the game, and they were pleased with how the cars reacted to setup changes. 

So I could go back to the handling team with any developments, can you please provide me with quantifiable examples (and supporting telemetry and data) where you feel the telemetry does not match with your expectations in game. This way we can check the physics in game and attempt to recreate your findings. 

 

  • Disagree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, BarryBL said:

Hi everyone,

I've heard back from the handling team on this one. 

Regarding our handling model, we have based this on reactions that would make sense as much as possible. Our handling team have had engineers on telemetry analyse the game, and they were pleased with how the cars reacted to setup changes. 

So I could go back to the handling team with any developments, can you please provide me with quantifiable examples (and supporting telemetry and data) where you feel the telemetry does not match with your expectations in game. This way we can check the physics in game and attempt to recreate your findings. 

 

Dissapointed with that answer, and if the development team think car setups are correctly implemented that is even worse. Anyone with half a brain that has actually played the game would understand the issues presented by shelbys post.

Four examples, sorry I don't have data to back this up, but if you play the game yourself it is easily verified.

In career mode in the 18 game when the car was fully developed, even with the hardest possibe spring and ride height settings the car still dragged along the track at medium speed and high speed. Surely not correct and poorly tested. I don't have the 19 game but have seen posts regarding this same issue and it being difficult to get a fully upgraded car through eau rouge at spa due to the car bottoming out.

Camber settings are primarily to equalise tyre temp across the surface of the tyre, and secondarily effect lateral grip and hence tyre wear. A balance must be struk in real life between temps, wear and grip. Limits were imposed (along with tyre pressure) in real life to protect against tyre failures. The game does not give separate tyre temps for inner middle and outer parts of the tyre. How is camber relevant, aside from potentially increased lateral grip with greater negative camber? Does it even effect tyre temps and wear as it would in the real world?

Toe and camber settings simply cannot be correctly implemented when extreme and exploitative settings are fastest in time trial.

Lower tyre tyre pressures increase tyre temperature, not so in the game. In real life limitations were put on the lowest pressure permitted to protect against tyre failures. Lower pressures create more grip and teams run as low a pressure as possible. Because the structure of the tyre is less rigid at lower pressures it moves around more generating more temperature in the tyre.

 

Edited by ChasteWand
  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/16/2020 at 6:25 AM, BarryBL said:

Hi everyone,

I've heard back from the handling team on this one. 

Regarding our handling model, we have based this on reactions that would make sense as much as possible. Our handling team have had engineers on telemetry analyse the game, and they were pleased with how the cars reacted to setup changes. 

So I could go back to the handling team with any developments, can you please provide me with quantifiable examples (and supporting telemetry and data) where you feel the telemetry does not match with your expectations in game. This way we can check the physics in game and attempt to recreate your findings. 

 

Exactly how are we supposed to have supporting telemetry to send to the handling team when there is no telemetry in the game?

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Obviously a wheel, any wheel, should be the optimum input device for a racing game that includes vehicles actually controlled in real life by... A wheel. Once the hardware /software rotation is set up match the real life rotation you can't get much more realistic (presuming the game /sim was programmed FIRST by calibrating the inputs of a developers wheel to the simulated vehicle) . If the game was actually developed using a controller for calibration and control then wheel control added on later this would be simply a bastardisation of real life physics. I hope and somewhat believe a wheel controller was used (same make and model by all coders of course) to do the calibration and then controllers were added into the mix and extra invisible aids were added to allow competent if unrealistic control by a controller. These aids were essential in the same way aim assist is prevalent in all first person shooters for console versions of the game. Nothing is more accurate and precise then using a mouse to aim and shoot a virtual gun. Aim assist with a controler can be usually set to varying degree of assist from a vague centering of the sim reticle on a target to the full on assist of the game actually taking full control of the reticle and locking on the the target closest to it. OK it's 'cheating' but practically everyone playing an fps on console uses a controler. It's fun, it's gamey but it's the same for everyone. 

My point here is to enquire exactly how Codies alter controler physics /assists so as to make the game so much more accessible to pad users. I highly doubt setups work in different ways from wheel users to pad users. So therefore only ONE of these devices, wheel or pad, can be said to be directly influenced by setup changes. The OTHER input device not only is affected by setups but also by the aforementioned pad assists in whatever form they take. @chastewand pretty accurate described camber settings with regard to tire temps and the inefficiency of only using an overall temp instead of inside outside and internal temps. This level of tech is rendered moot by the pad assists used in the game. I can't see how any pad user can accurately tweak setup changes at all when he /she is making changes to (hopefully) a wheel/irl setup configuration and then having these tweaks overridden by rather powerful pad assists. It may be one of the reasons such crazy extreme settings are prevalent on TT times. Full camber, toe for example. Maybe when the game senses for example camber is set above 7 it simply overrides the setting or its affect by applying an equivalent increase in the pad assist (pad damping would be an example).

I'd love to know how far these logically included pad assists go to enhancing the experience. Is it solely lateral movement that is corrected or also forward /backward (acceleration/braking) that is affected? What about vertical? OK there is no vertical input on any non flying sim controller but what if the player has set extreme high or low wings? Does the game then also take over vehicle behavior to keep the car on track by either enhanced grip or by adding 'virtual downforce'? This would explain the car scraping the track with low winf settings (less downforce). 

What is going ON Codies?! For the accuracy of this game to go to the next 'level' we need a developers kit available to modders. I believe only by allowing external modders access to the inner workings of the game will we ever get accurate handling of the cars on both wheels and controllers (warning - accurate pad handling might be scary!). I don't believe Codies will devote enough dev time to ever allow this game to be sim like so why not invite external free help? There are many mainstream games out there which have mods actually released as official paid dlc later in a games life cycle. Why not let all the untapped talent out there help make the F1 games become a real racing behemoth of an experience? The license issues should be non existent as it's only the handling that is changed, all the logos, liveries and drivers will still be in full control of the official game developers. 

TLDR... Codies..... Please detail exactly what you are doing to controller inputs BEFORE they get from thumbs and fingers to the sim car inputs. How much assist is given, is it linear or logerithmic or even adaptive? Ok I get it might be company secrets but it's such a contentious subject we just want to understand it better, after all you didn't reinvent the wheel here.... 

🤔😉😎

Edited by sloppysmusic
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×