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[IMPROVEMENT] Proper modeling of tire spin

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Currently in game there is rudimentary traction control being applied to traction loss (even with TC turned off) This issue becomes especially noticable on RWD vehicles. In real life (and other racing sims) when a vehicles tires break traction due to power over at WOT the RPM of the engine will increase rapidly as the vehicles ceases to accelerate.. In Dirt Rally this is not the case.  The game engine is not allowing the tires to break free and spin properly free of load.

A clearer example can be seen with powerful RWD vehicles launching at WOT from the starting line in gravel. The tires should spin wildly at WOT and traction should be virtually non-existant..even when shifting to 2nd at WOT traction loss should still remain. The engine RPM's should not lower and proper acceleration should not begin again until the driver modulates or lets off the throttle to regain traction. Dirt Rally is not modeling tire spin properly..it would be nice to see this fixed so when TC is actually turned off the vehicles behave properly.

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Proper tire spin modeling:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCpLAbHBWY

RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H88hZz6h_Vs

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Totally agree.. I have driven the BMW E30 a lot now, and all I need to do to get grip on the rear is to drop it into second. 
It is also hard to get through a hairpin because the grip is so unpredictable.. I clutchkick but it wont really break traction..

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Proper tire spin modeling:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCpLAbHBWY

RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H88hZz6h_Vs
Yeah, there is way too much grip overall but please.. ..do not use RBR to demonstrate how RWD's should do because RBR is the worst example you can find. RWD's in RBR aren't behaving at all like these cars should be.

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RBR's RWD is great, but not the one fishsticks posted (he posted Real Physics mod which wasn't finished). NGP mod is what does this right. I can post my replay from Markku Alèn Tribute Rally's Loch Ard stage  I did with Fiat Abarth 131 if You guys want to see how realistic it is. Nothing like a footage above.

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SamRWD said:
RBR's RWD is great, but not the one fishsticks posted (he posted Real Physics mod which wasn't finished). NGP mod is what does this right. I can post my replay from Markku Alèn Tribute Rally's Loch Ard stage  I did with Fiat Abarth 131 if You guys want to see how realistic it is. Nothing like a footage above.
I know a thing or two about this subject and I can quarantee to you that NGP is not doing it right. :)

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Hello! I believe You have every right to have Your opinion, but from what I've heard from real life drivers, and what real life drivers who are testing NGP say it is the most realistic representation of RWD in rally sim at the moment.
EDIT:
Fun fact #1 NGP INCREASES grip on snow surfaces, because real world drivers said RBR's grip is too low on that surface compared to real life. 

Fun fact#2 Robert Kubica was actively competing in Polish RBR league, and confirmed RBR is very realistic multiple times including recorded interviews.

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SamRWD said:
Hello! I believe You have every right to have Your opinion, but from what I've heard from real life drivers, and what real life drivers who are testing NGP say it is the most realistic representation of RWD in rally sim at the moment.
EDIT:
Fun fact #1 NGP INCREASES grip on snow surfaces, because real world drivers said RBR's grip is too low on that surface compared to real life. 

Fun fact#2 Robert Kubica was actively competing in Polish RBR league, and confirmed RBR is very realistic multiple times including recorded interviews.
Stay strong with your belief! :)

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SamRWD said:
Hello! I believe You have every right to have Your opinion, but from what I've heard from real life drivers, and what real life drivers who are testing NGP say it is the most realistic representation of RWD in rally sim at the moment.
EDIT:
Fun fact #1 NGP INCREASES grip on snow surfaces, because real world drivers said RBR's grip is too low on that surface compared to real life. 

Fun fact#2 Robert Kubica was actively competing in Polish RBR league, and confirmed RBR is very realistic multiple times including recorded interviews.
Stay strong with your belief! :)
I am strongly believing in facts, not personal believes. I am also always willing to discuss any matter related to physics as long as I not ridicouled as it was a case multiple times on this boards. Do You believe current DiRT Rally phyiscs are more realistic? Or do You believe both are off? If so, which is closer to reality? How much needs to be changed for DiRT Rally to be a close representation of reality? Is DiRT's RWD more realistic than AWD (sorry, I don't care about FWD- personal preferences)?

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SamRWD said:
Hello! I believe You have every right to have Your opinion, but from what I've heard from real life drivers, and what real life drivers who are testing NGP say it is the most realistic representation of RWD in rally sim at the moment. 

"Hello! I believe You have every right to have Your opinion", but you do realise that the RWD physic's in RBR where developed by modders who took the ONE FWD car in the game, and turned it back to front! It's also worth pointing out that they were unable to accurately simulate a "live axle" (being as the ONE FWD car in the game had independent suspension) so the handling of you fiat 131 in RBR is also wrong. We will just brush over the fact that RBR never, ever had a RWD car modelled by the developers in the game or a template for it shall we?

Quote
"and what real life divers who are testing NGP say it is the most realistic representation of RWD in rally sim at the moment"

Firstly!...DiRT Rally has only been out less than 2 weeks...and i'm not saying it's perfect! (montycarlo snow and ice could use a tweek) so your statement is a little inaccurate...they haven't ALL tried this yet, also! RBR has been the ONLY rally sim for the last 11 years, of course it's the most realistic rally sim around...it's the only one you muppet!

Fun fact #1 NGP INCREASES grip on snow surfaces, because real world drivers said RBR's grip is too low on that surface compared to real life. 

Well...Duh! any 17 year old driver could tell you that, Hell... I could of told you that! About bloody time! My Toyota handles better in the snow that anything simulated in RBR!

Fun fact#2 Robert Kubica was actively competing in Polish RBR league, and confirmed RBR is very realistic multiple times including recorded interviews.

Really? That's your argument? "Crash Kubica" ? Let's take a look at Robert... 24 WRC starts... 7 retirements, mostly accidents (29.2%) so you want me to take rally car handling advice from some one who "more or less" 30% of the time crashes out of the event... All that tells me is he has no idea how a rally car handles.

I've played RBR for the last 10 years... If your going to argue the merits of RBR you really need to do your research and get it right, otherwise you just look silly.

You really need to bring more of an argument to the table than fantasy, "Crash Kubica" and a back to front Rover.

Driving a car is not difficult, RBR's "Driving On Ice" approach, try's to kill you if you try to drive faster than 30 mph. That is not a sim. Driving a car fast, on a loose surface IS difficult, DiRT rally does that very well.

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@SamRWD You can investigate how well is the drivetrain modeled in RBR just to mention one thing.

Funny thing is that I've driven one professional simulator used for real rally drivers coaching and it felt nothing like NGP. The feel was very close to DiRT (without the bad steering response and slightly floaty feel that makes DiRT much harder than it should be). Cars were very responsive to steering inputs, had really good brakes and didn't slide much. That simulator was running with very heavily modified RBR. The car we were driving was a modern WRC. I've personally chatted a lot with one long time professional rally driver from the highest possible level regarding RBR physics and the feedback I've heard is not so rose-colored.

I've driven only one real rally car (historic Ford Anglia) but I had RWD cars for 10 years. I think I know what the RWD car should do when you lift off the throttle during a slide for example.

Sorry to say that but there is not a single properly done RWD car in RBR. About the 4WD's in NGP, those are done much better but you can see RBR physics flaws with those cars too. Some cars are also way too fast. Group b Audi for example is approx. 2 seconds per km faster than its real life counterparts were. NGP is the best try that is done with RBR engine but I really hope that someone with physics knowledge could make the car physics for the cars.

But anyway this thread is derailing into deep offtopic so lets get it back. But please do not use sims to compare sims. Use the real life videos and experiences.

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@SamRWD You can investigate how well is the drivetrain modeled in RBR just to mention one thing.

Funny thing is that I've driven one professional simulator used for real rally drivers coaching and it felt nothing like NGP. The feel was very close to DiRT (without the bad steering response and slightly floaty feel that makes DiRT much harder than it should be). Cars were very responsive to steering inputs, had really good brakes and didn't slide much. That simulator was running with very heavily modified RBR. The car we were driving was a modern WRC. I've personally chatted a lot with one long time professional rally driver from the highest possible level regarding RBR physics and the feedback I've heard is not so rose-colored.

I've driven only one real rally car (historic Ford Anglia) but I had RWD cars for 10 years. I think I know what the RWD car should do when you lift off the throttle during a slide for example.

Sorry to say that but there is not a single properly done RWD car in RBR. About the 4WD's in NGP, those are done much better but you can see RBR physics flaws with those cars too. Some cars are also way too fast. Group b Audi for example is approx. 2 seconds per km faster than its real life counterparts were. NGP is the best try that is done with RBR engine but I really hope that someone with physics knowledge could make the car physics for the cars.

But anyway this thread is derailing into deep offtopic so lets get it back. But please do not use sims to compare sims. Use the real life videos and experiences.
Hello! Here we go:
I am well aware of RBR's shortcommings. I'd forward You to NGP's readme to see, that there is a lot missing in default, or modded non NGP physics. You mention some kind of profeesional simulator based on heavy modificated RBR, that was very close to DiRT and his opinion of default RBR physics was critical. Let's assume, that all of that is true. I decided not to waste my time over such claims, but let's do this. First of all let's talk about that "professional simulator used for real rally drivers coaching" (BTW how did they obtain a RBR's licence to be used as a professional simulator? cust curious). Do You know that the only motion based simulator (they actually used real car's body to base it on) praised by Markus Gronholm doesn't use RBR, but own software? Could You please let us know the name of that school? RBR's community would really appretiate that information. As for Your "long time professional rally driver from the highest possible level" we have his opinion vs multiple real life drivers (including Kubica) actively involved in RBR's scene (please check Racedepartament for English speaking, ly-racing.de for German, and E-Rajdy for Polish speaking community). On top of that I never trusted such opinions, therefore I've done research using real life video footage which is not dependent on individual opinion by either real world drivers, or "real world drivers". I've already run a topic on this very board
http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/6029/does-the-game-have-too-much-grip/p1
I've presented examples of unrealistic behaviour within DiRT, (here is just one from real life, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYjW5idn9pc please let me know how can I mod real life phyiscs so they get as much grip as DiRT, and please notice that slides are much less off thatn breakind distances that are just ridiculous). Since You claim that "professional simulator" modifies RBR physics the way they resemble DiRT a lot, therefore it is not a realistic simulator no matter what You, me, Pope, top league driver says. I could quote myself from the topic (I've linked it above already) I've done that discussion, I've proposed a test to verify how DiRT's physics are realistic, no one seemed to comment on that, just as noone responded to my simply challenge to "grip is ok now" crowd regarding Subaru onboard. BTW You mention, that professional simulator was "modern WRC", do You realise that even arcade crowd agrees, that modern WRC cars in DiRT need to be tweaked?
"
But anyway this thread is derailing into deep offtopic so lets get it back. But please do not use sims to compare sims. Use the real life videos and experiences." Once again, go to the thread linked by me, lot's of footage there.
As for Quattro's performance- there is more than that. First of all there is a handbrake issue, then there is damage model which is too forgiving for entire Group B fleet within NGP, and then there is the fact, that those cars use tyres that are modeled after current spec tyres. NGP's group B doesn't use historic tyres and that's an issue. That's why I say, that NGP is the most realistic sim we have on the market, I'm not saying it is perfect. For example WRC cars (especially circa 2000 era) don't seem to have enough engine output on low revs compared to real life videos. Also center of gravity is set too high, so cars roll over small cambers. I suspect that is a compromise that needed to be taken in order to overcome RBR's shortcomings. Thanks.

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SamRWD said:
Hello! I believe You have every right to have Your opinion, but from what I've heard from real life drivers, and what real life drivers who are testing NGP say it is the most realistic representation of RWD in rally sim at the moment.
EDIT:
Fun fact #1 NGP INCREASES grip on snow surfaces, because real world drivers said RBR's grip is too low on that surface compared to real life. 

Fun fact#2 Robert Kubica was actively competing in Polish RBR league, and confirmed RBR is very realistic multiple times including recorded interviews.
Agree with the snow comment, when using studded tyres on snow there is way more grip than gravel, however if using normal tyres on a tarmac stage and hit a small area of snow is would be much more slippery 

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I have atleast 4-5 years of competition experience in RWD cars on gravel and asphalt. I'm not claiming Dirt is perfect in any way, but the RWD cars on gravel are the closest I've come to the real thing in a game. I've tried RWD in RBR and they felt terrible. Not sure what mod I tried though.

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Hi! If You couldn't do this in RBR:
https://youtu.be/gh_SWN0BsZQ
Then it wasn't NGP (NGP doesn't have phyiscs for Escort, but You get the idea).

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I really hope this feature will make it's way in. It's a shame if final game will not have this.

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RBR can't handle real RWD physics, it just the FWD axle which is re-positioned by modders to the back of the car. Please don't compare anything to another which is worst in default.

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Well I don't know what this NGP or WOT business means, but the Abarth 131 video in RBR looks like the dude is driving on ice... that's not how RWD cars acts on asphalt at all.

That said, I think Dirt Rally can improve a little bit with the rearwheel drive cars. Just a little less grip and a little more challenge is needed. :)

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Proper tire spin modeling:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCpLAbHBWY

RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H88hZz6h_Vs

that first video doesn't look real at all!

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Msportdan said:
Proper tire spin modeling:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCpLAbHBWY

RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H88hZz6h_Vs

that first video doesn't look real at all!
Yeah that was a bad example.  But still I think the point was made about RPM's rising when traction is lost and then falling again when traction is regained.  It's absent from the game ATM.

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mesa said:
RBR can't handle real RWD physics, it just the FWD axle which is re-positioned by modders to the back of the car. Please don't compare anything to another which is worst in default.

NGP uses a proper RWD physics with a working handbrake.
EDIT:
That 131 video features another physics mod, it was never 100% finished as NGP guys managed to complete their work first including a proper plugin etc.

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Well all I can say is. I hope this gets sorted soon as I am struggling some what in the Stratos in the hairpins. And also it's a nightmare  trying to turn the thing around once facing backwards. All you can do is a 3 to 5 point turn depending on road wipth.

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