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What features do we want to see in a future DIRT Rally game?

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17 hours ago, F2CMaDMaXX said:

There is an excellent video of this, but i don't remember where i saw it.

 

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The two main features I would like to see in Dirt Rally 3 and beyond would be:

1) Continued improvements to car physics, particularly tarmac, 100% sim focus, and;

2) (the reason for this post) a rally stage creator.

I saw in the news today that Codemasters are looking to sell to Take-Two Interactive. Take-Two make the golf sim PGA Tour 2K21 (developed by HB Studios). I am in love with the course designer software that comes packaged with the game and have so many times fantasised about Dirt Rally having the same course creator engine for making rally stages. It would be insanely good. It's so intuitive and easy to pick up but the quality of courses (read rally stages) capable of being created is very impressive. The UI is very controller friendly as well - most courses are made on controller but mouse and keyboard is also of course supported (and is my personal preference).

I spend more hours than I care to mention painstakingly making my own golf courses in the original golf game (The Golf Club - Collectors Edition) so that I can play golf on my own created courses, in VR! It's amazing. Courses can be created using a variety of themes, which in the case of rally would translate to different rally locations/countries from around the world. You can also mix and match to create unique environments.

I don't know if Take Two Interactive would have the rights to adapt and use the course creator engine (made by HB Studios) in other games, but I'm sure something could be worked out. I would love for Codemasters to look into this kind of feature very seriously, as the amount of high quality rally stages available from around the world would quickly skyrocket, and there would be no losers in this scenario. Modelling golf courses is insanely fun and addictive and I just know that doing this for rally stages would be equally, mind-blowingly fun and rewarding.

We would of course be creating content for Dirt Rally for free, and I'm sure that is something that Codemasters (and to be fair any company) would appreciate very much indeed.

Edited by mricky
reference to Greg Norman Golf Course Designer removed (legacy)

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option to see where the spare wheels are placed ( front , rear ....), because the heavy wheel is important for  car setup 

 

Edited by gk9147

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Evaluating cars/tracks performance and the driving experience, I'd hint the coders
at room to improve and refine the game's quality (Rally, Gravel) by reconsidering:

1. There should be a choice for displaying wheel- or overground speed on the HUD.

2. The grip level feels like the cars have more weight than in DR1 without having more
grip at the same time, please increase the grip of all cars to a accommodated level.
Too much spots on the tracks where breaking and steering wheels have no effect at all
and it seems on half of the way the wheels are in the air not even touching the ground.

3. The 'magnetisms' in/outsides of turns. If you get into a turn a bit off the ideal line
you can either be sucked to the inside with no means to get away, where countersteering
on 4WD or FWD, accelerating, breaking or aligning by the handbrake have zero effect.
Or you get sucked to the outside loosing all grip sliding uncontrollably even at 10kph!

4. Even with the power set 66% to the front a 4WD acts more like a RWD than a FWD!
It's not possible to align the car by the handbreake or the brakes set at 66% to the rear
that should normally give the front the tendency towards the center of the car's movement.
So I'm not really excited by the car's/track's physics, neither for a sim nor arcade game.

5. The track's nature seems to me all tracks in all locations from start to finish have
+/- the same surface material with the consistence of powder, far from gravel physics,
even if the surface sounds and graphics suggest otherwise it's the same. Please add more
variations there from fine and rough sand, fine and rough gravel to rocky areas between
locations and stages and within the stages themselves and add the corresponding grip.
To me this seems to be a bit better at the events that were transcoded from Dirt Rally 1.

6. The surface graphics. As is it's a lot 'flying blind' because lots of the upcoming
bumps, dents, deviations, ruts that will tilt and twist your car around are invisible
on the track's surface, that is unrealistic, it prevents the player from handling the
car flawlessly relating to the track's performance. Please improve extra extra much.
The impact of these weird spots should be decreased remarkably to have good racing.
Often the physical forces of speed, weight, turns, grip, bumps and steering just don't
fit together and far too often you get deflected from your straight driving line by no
obvious cause and go swerve left and right without response to steering! EVOstudios
should get the EGOengine to do more car handling/track performance like Dirt Rally 1.

7. Pacenotes (german) are too basic and often unprecise, misleading or false, including
the distance calls. Notes don't consider unusual charcteristics of the track enough.
Camber and warning notes are too rare. Tightening turns need to always be announced
with the initial and final tightness if they tighten by one count or more. They are
very inconsistent too, with fours you can do full throttle and sixes you need to brake
like hell to not go over the edge. I'ts just not good enough for a Rallysim. To solve this
it would be great to have a pacenotes editor to adjust/rectify the codrivers calls.

8. I'd love to have 1 restart in daily, 2 in weekly and 3 in each monthly challenges event.
We're paying customers after all and should benefit of a second chance if the first run fails.
I got a DNF after a 16km stage finished with a good time in a weekly challenge because
the connection with the server could not be established in multiple attempts and I had to
return to the main menu. A possible restart would have been helpful to ease the letdown.

Having played DR2 a lot I think the game has a weird & vastly overdrawn way to simulate
Rally difficulties and racing challenges, basically you need to memorize the whole lots of
faulty pacenotes and abnormalities of the tracks that will send you into crashing to get into
the top section of the leaderboard! The rest depends on practice and clean driving skills.

Would be great if the Rally stages of the Dirt 4/3/2 games were added to Dirt Rally 3!
Anyway, if and when there will be a Dirt Rally 3, I will definitively play it from DAY ONE!

Edited by sixtyfour
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I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't drive a car IRL.

Not saying there is nothing to improve in DR3, but most of your points are attempts at making the game easier for you.

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23 minutes ago, F2CMaDMaXX said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say you don't drive a car IRL.

Not saying there is nothing to improve in DR3, but most of your points are attempts at making the game easier for you.

I've driven several cars IRL but switched to bycicle/train already at the end of the last century.
Of course I didn't drive them the way that you drive in a rally simulation game! And of course
it would get easier if physics were more natural and codriver calls were more accurate! :classic_wink:

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17 hours ago, gk9147 said:

option to see where the spare wheels are placed ( front , rear ....), because the heavy wheel is important for  car setup 

 

Do the wheel affect the actual physics on the car and not only the weight?

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40 minutes ago, somethingthing said:

Do the wheel affect the actual physics on the car and not only the weight?

As for the spare wheel, its not clear if it adds any weight actually in the game, certainly not apparent for acceleration, it does affect physics for sure but its likely not "actual" physics.  So it seems to be a bit of a patchwork/abstraction and not relying purely on adding a mass object at position xyz.

 

1 hour ago, sixtyfour said:

Evaluating cars/tracks performance and the driving experience, I'd hint the coders
at room to improve and refine the game's quality (Rally, Gravel) by reconsidering:

 

I will agree on the pacenotes and having to memorize the stages entirely.  the rest not so much.  The "magnetisms" are the basics of rallying; you drift wide off line, and you get sucked inside if you don't get your turn in correct at low speed or you drop some speed and grip up at the rear.

 

Edited by bn880

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3 hours ago, bn880 said:

 

As for the spare wheel, its not clear if it adds any weight actually in the game, certainly not apparent for acceleration, it does affect physics for sure but its likely not "actual" physics.  So it seems to be a bit of a patchwork/abstraction and not relying purely on adding a mass object at position xyz.

 

I will agree on the pacenotes and having to memorize the stages entirely.  the rest not so much.  The "magnetisms" are the basics of rallying; you drift wide off line, and you get sucked inside if you don't get your turn in correct at low speed or you drop some speed and grip up at the rear.

 

It must add some weight to the car and affect the acceleration/top speed but i cant feel any difference to the physics of the tyres at all. Like... in rwd for example it should press the rear back a tiny bit but i cant tell a difference at all.

 

How come theres not an actual "manual" from the devs about stuff like this?!

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Just now, somethingthing said:

It must add some weight to the car and affect the acceleration/top speed but i cant feel any difference to the physics of the tyres at all. Like... in rwd for example it should press the rear back a tiny bit but i cant tell a difference at all.

So tell me how much is the acceleration and top speed affected?

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1 minute ago, bn880 said:

So tell me how much is the acceleration and top speed affected?

No idea. But it would be stupid to not just add 2 spare wheels everytime and also tell how much each tyre add in weight if it didnt add weight which affected the acceleration/speed. So, tell me how the physics is different with 0, 1 or 2 spares?

Edited by somethingthing

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Just now, somethingthing said:

No idea. But it would be stupid to not just add 2 spare wheels everytime if it didnt add weight which affected the acceleration/speed. So, tell me how the physics is different with 0, 1 or 2 spares?

You have no idea because it isn't affected at all.   I would rather not share that with you as I don't like your attitude.

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Just now, bn880 said:

You have no idea because it isn't affected at all.   I would rather not share that with you as I don't like your attitude.

You have no idea.

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Just now, somethingthing said:

You have no idea.

I have a very good idea, so the joke is on you.  You come in here making a bunch of assumptions pulling stuff out of your back end.  I've told you in my first post what the deal is, and you just chose to contradict it without actually doing any research.

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3 minutes ago, bn880 said:

I have a very good idea, so the joke is on you.  You come in here making a bunch of assumptions pulling stuff out of your back end.  I've told you in my first post what the deal is, and you just chose to contradict it without actually doing any research.

"As for the spare wheel, its not clear if it adds any weight actually in the game, certainly not apparent for acceleration, it does affect physics for sure but its likely not "actual" physics.  So it seems to be a bit of a patchwork/abstraction and not relying purely on adding a mass object at position xyz."

Seems like guesswork to me.

Edited by somethingthing

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5 minutes ago, somethingthing said:

"As for the spare wheel, its not clear if it adds any weight actually in the game, certainly not apparent for acceleration, it does affect physics for sure but its likely not "actual" physics.  So it seems to be a bit of a patchwork/abstraction and not relying purely on adding a mass object at position xyz."

Seems like guesswork to me.

I was trying to go easy on you.  As you said this  " Do the wheel affect the actual physics on the car and not only the weight? "   which is an assumption that is basically the reverse of the reality of the implementation.  You can check yourself by analyzing some data logs, I've done that so I know.   Some people can also feel the difference with extra tyres, but I haven't heard of a top driver tell me yet the acceleration or top speed is affected from their feeling.

Edited by bn880

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3 hours ago, somethingthing said:

No idea. But it would be stupid to not just add 2 spare wheels everytime and also tell how much each tyre add in weight if it didnt add weight which affected the acceleration/speed. So, tell me how the physics is different with 0, 1 or 2 spares?

the heavy physics work with spare wheel on DR 2.0.
i give exemple:
1 wheel in front , you oversteer
2 wheel in front ,more oversteer
because the heavy is in front
1 wheel in rear , understeer
2wheel in rear , more understeer 
you need adjust your setup to solve problem
 
and if you car is more heavy is more stable  for accelerate and more difficult  brake
sorry for my bad translate 

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With Codemasters now being taken over by Take2, who also own Rockstar, it got me thinking, imagine Dirt Rally 3 used an open world location…Los Santos from GTA5. Single venue events at the airport, city centre tarmac stages, meth gravel stages in the desert, twisty mountain stages up Mt. Chiliad…
In all seriousness though, an open world setting isn’t the worst idea for a hardcore rally sim. Take the Forza Horizon 4 map for example. Endless possibilities for stages amongst the open roads, twisty tarmac lanes, tight urban sections, forest gravel and quarry lanes. Hay bales, cones, pylons, barriers and tyres could be used to make endless stages out of the given area, along with the possibility of user created stages with a generated pacenotes system. Using FH4’s map as an example, there could easily be incredible 30 mile stages created out of that environment. With an open world you could even have road sections between stages, where you have to drive carefully and avoid damaging the car or wearing the tyres, like on a real event. A huge open world on next-gen hardware, with realistic structured events, changing weather and legit physics would be incredible. This could also work into a more long-term or subscription style game, a style which seems to be gaining more and more traction and could work well at the dawn of a new generation of console; the open world could gradually expand, using a solid base game as a foundation.

 

Or not, I dunno.

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For me the most important thing by far is to make it a real hardcore rally sim. Do a big overhaul of the physics engine, and please ditch the center pivot already.

Edited by Gregow
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I want a new EGO game engine supporting longer stages and a physics overhaul that ditches the center pivot model but only if they are going to take the time to do it properly, resulting in an experience improvement over what we currently have. Change just for change's sake is not a good idea. Also, I don't want it to be so hardcore that cars are not just as enjoyable to drive as they are on controller now. The controller input they have right now is great and I would hate to see that lost in a move towards something unrealistically difficult. Insane difficulty does not equal realism and definitely not enjoyment for many people. I think a lot games that wear the term "hardcore sim" are unnecessarily difficult to the point that it might be more difficult than driving the cars in real life. I want the next Dirt Rally to strike a great balance between being as close to real rally car physics as possible while still remaining very fun. At the end of the day, these are games and I play them for fun.

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@FlatOverCrest A good example is Assetto Corsa Competizione, it's commonly accepted as one of the most realistic sims nowadays, however, I play it on my laptop keyboard and the handling is so easy/fun/addictive. Call me crazy, but I find it easier than some not so realistic games like FM7, F1 and PC2. So yes, make DR3's physics as realistic as possible, but please keep it playable with a keyboard/controller.

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I personally can't see the point of driving a sim with a keyboard. I mean, the whole point is to simulate the real experience and it's not like the career modes in these games are very compelling. With that said though, I don't think it's an issue directly related to physics but rather tweaking the input from the controllers and maybe adding some assists. At least that's what I think would be the right approach.

What I really don't want to see are things dumbed down in an attempt to appeal to a broader audience. By that I don't mean exclude players with controllers. Rather, don't try to make it as approachable as possible with simplistic physics and dumb gameplay in an attempt to appeal to the most casual gamers who barely know what a car is. Like SMS did with Project Cars 3.

I hope Codemasters dares to make a demanding and challenging hardcore rally sim - one that takes realism (in physics first and foremost) to the next level.

That doesn't mean unrealistically difficult, but rather that things that are difficult in reality should be difficult in the game, and things that are easy should be easy.

"Unrealistically difficult" is not so common for modern sims though. Only one I can think of is Asetto Corsa with some cars and how it sometimes reacts to putting a wheel on a curb or touching grass. Seems like they improved quite a bit with ACC, but I haven't tried it as the cars don't interest me. Making cars behave properly on and over the limit seems to be a bit of a challenge but modern sims handle it pretty well.

I think Rfactor 2 is a good example as it's pretty much as hardcore sim as it gets. I mean, it's pretty much only about being a sim and that's all it does. Yet, if you have well made cars (quite the variation there) you can drive them easily and FFB communicates well what's going on. The challenge is driving fast and if you make stupid mistakes you will get punished. Like, you will have to think about how you shift the weight around, how you load the suspension, being smooth with the inputs, don't think high curbs are just an extension of the road and so on and so forth. 

Richard Burns Rally often gets mentioned and it's a common misunderstanding that it's difficult to drive. The cars are actually very easy to drive, as they should. With the NGP mod there are cars, like Group B, that are more than a handful, as they should. What's difficult is thinking you can drive like Richard Burns. Another aspect, adding to that, are the stages. 

There's sort of a narrower windows for the driver inputs, as compared to other titles like DR2. You have to be on point. Getting it sort of right is not enough. It means for example that you need better car control in order to slide it around without parking in a tree. You also have to do that on stages that sometimes are very narrow, bumpy and punishing.

I'd say that's how it should be. With the caveat that I've mostly played with the NGP mod and not the vanilla game in a long while. You can also see that when comparing real footage with the game. RBR is the best match for the real thing I've seen, especially for the driver inputs. 

Dirt Rally 2.0 makes it very easy to rotate the cars and slide around. Sure, they're supposed to be easy to slide around but it's almost like all you have to do is turn the wheel and push the throttle - even i fwd cars. Feels to me that this is due to the center pivot - the cars really like to turn and slide. Then the weight shifting, throttle and brake only need to be sort of right. That sort of "window" where you get the car to really perform and you control it sliding through twists and turns is much wider. 

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