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What features do we want to see in a future DIRT Rally game?

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20 minutes ago, Daytrader said:

I just want one fair price for a complete game at launch, we had it for like 15 years of gaming, lots of other companys bring out full games at launch, with no paid dlc, cmon, we even had to pay for all the tracks that were in dirt rally 1.

You didn't have to do anything, you chose to pay for them. You could've just not bought them and enjoyed only the new tracks. I see this argument all the time and it makes no sense to me.

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Good points OP ūüôā

For me, new engine that can handle longer stages is first priority. Then tyre wear and much more hardcore damage.

One feature I'd really want is to be able to work on the car between stages even if there was no service. This could be tweaked to you being able to tweak just the things your car supports, and also optionally have a time limit decided on the shape of your car (coming in with a really destroyed car would take more time to get to the next stage, so less time to tweak the car).

So things that could be tweaked between stages:

  1. Tyres - Switch them around at your will.
  2. Emergency repairs - let us devote time to attempt emergency roadside repairs with a percentage chance for success. I know I would've taped down that flapping hood or just taken it off. Be wild and take out the smashed windscreen. Try to smash that twisted suspension into place with a rock. Lots of stuff ūüôā¬†
  3. Adjust some car setting - Some old cars might not be able to adjust much, while modern cars could be a able to adjust damper clicks, adjust electronic diffs, etc. 
Edited by Dytut
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I'd like to be able to choose co-drivers, Nicky Grist and Derek Ringer being obvious choices. Also, I think there should be some more classic rally cars like the Mk1 Escort as driven by Roger Clark and the Saabs, Nissan Bluebirds and a Volvo Amazon. Then there's the original long wheelbase Quattros. Toyotas need to come back too plus liveries for drivers like Carlos Sainz, Marcus Gronholm and any other classic driver there is out there other than Colin Mcrae, who also needs to be joined by his brother and Dad.

I don't mind sticking with the current graphics engine. It's nice to have a current game which can run on slightly older hardware like mine. Obviously I'll have to upgrade at some point, that will be inevitable, but I'd rather not for now.

That's all I can think of for now...

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First and foremost I want there to BE a Dirt Rally 3, and hope it will be the next installment of the Dirt IP.  I'd be very sad to see "Dirt 5" given Dirt 4's trend toward trying to please both sim and arcade rally fans, then pleasing neither.

That said Dirt 4 did some things that I would actually like to see in Dirt Rally 3, specifically campaign depth.
For the Dirt Rally 3 campaign, it would be awesome to capture the feeling of starting up a rally team from the hobbyist/amateur level all the way up to world rally contender.

example:

In the beginning of the campaign, you play the roles of team manager and driver with a small team of enthusiasts.  You, your co-driver, a mechanic, and a budget just big enough to buy a newer compact FWD car or a banged up historic car then choose what modifications you want to invest in to make the car rally worthy.  You could choose to leave your car as is and just tear out the extra weight, or spend your left over budget on new diffs, better suspension, engine tuning, etc.

Your first races would be open entries where you compete in a wide class and your goal at first is merely to finish the rally and get your name out there, maybe draw the attention of sponsors to bring in some cash.  Unless you've got mad skill and drive like a pro to win in your class, your first few events will probably not earn you alot of cash, but the point would be gaining experience and getting your name out there.

Sponsorships would end up being a great source of cash for your team, and serve as gameplay challenges as they did in Dirt 4.  Acquiring more sponsors, and winning rallies would be your avenues to income to improve your team's facilities and expand your staff as you enter more and more prestigious rally classes where the risk/reward increases.  Eventually, only at the highest levels would winning would become a primary goal for your team, because at that point, you have the budget and the team to support the risk required to win a rally.

That gameplay loop seemed to work well for Dirt 4, but some of the execution wasn't great.  There was so much emphasis on winning in Dirt 4 which was frustrating and unrealistic.  In a real rally, your goal is to improve yourself and your team, and do what you can not to destroy your hardware.   If winning a rally costs you a car, it might not have been worth it for your team.  I REALLY think this attitude would be refreshing to players, and it would be in the spirit of Dirt Rally, which I feel is about self-improvement above all else.

Along with the emphasis on finishing a rally, I would really hope that "hardcore" damage meant what it says.   Dirt Rally 2.0 and its predecessor have cars made of magical steel, driving away from crashes that would completely destroy a car.  By itself this isn't a problem, but what makes it a problem is that it changes the way the game is played.  Instead of driving carefully, you can still confidently drive like an absolute maniac without the risk that should come with that style.   One thing I LOVE about rallying is the constant tug of war between speed and safety-  knowing when/where to push, and when to be careful.   Dirt Rally 3 should bring more emphasis to this fundamental strategy in rallying.  
 

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Adding a few more things that I missed, they've been on my mind for a long time and also many have been included in my points Based DR 2.0 Steam review:

- (not sure if mentioned yet) Complete offline career with all bells and whistles beside the online one, ideally ability to create several offline careers.
- Add ability to have more than 12 stages per championship event, and more than 6 events in a championship.
- Introduce power steering failure (optional feature with injury/damage warning that must be accepted)
- Rutts that show clearer lines made by professionals, sometimes it looks like there are 50 different lines all over the place.
- UDP output that includes ID's for cars and tracks, as well as manifold pressure info, coolant temperature, and tyre/brake info.  All necessities for proper data display and logging.
- Ability to create Events/Championships/Clubs/Compeititions based on cherry picking vehicle classes and individual vehicles for them.  For example to be able to throw some 2WD compeititions together.
- Snow and mud/terrain realism:  ability to get stuck in snow banks and precarious ditches, with all vehicles including R5.  Just like real life.
- Force Clutch Override on, and remove the option.  Makes no sense to have this option, and especially as an assist.  It's an anti assist if anything.
- Add more setup saving slots. Only 8 setups can be saved per car per surface type. Grossly insufficient.
- Please fix the cut areas somehow, progressive penalties based on distance / time and a gradient of drag off the road would be welcome.  Resets only in emergencies (going off the map)
- Inconsistent and late pace notes.  Number one there needs to be a method to advance the pacenote calls even more.  Two - if possible then from within the car during the ride a button to slow or speed up the co driver.  Lastly correct some of the incorrect calls.
- Finland clear/day stages are covered with thick forest fire smoke limiting visibiliy.  Photo realistic rendering is very important to a sim, and I hope this is addressed in rev 3.
- Montecarlo ice sections need to be more slippy if it's meant to be proper ice sections with winter tyres (not studded).
- "wash" mode on windshield wipers (would be nice to wash away some of the late stage grime etc).
- Feature to render and simulate pulled up rocks on the stages, which can cause punctures/damage.

 

Edited by bn880
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  • No fog/haze/mist effect for performance reasons. Clear and realistic visuals must not be compromised, only add as much eye candy as you can without sacrificing that. High graphical fidelity with the looks ruined by an ugly and unrealistic haze effect is completely bass-ackwards and counter-productive. If photorealistic visuals require less high-res textures or high-poly assets then so be it, overall it'll look far better
  • A proper FOV and seat position adjust like in sims such as AC. The seat position adjust is way too limited, and FOV changes in large steps rather than in degrees, and FOV only affects some views
  • Rallycross AI needs massive improvements. The random AI times from qualifiers are way off (they should be around the same as the drivers in your heat but they can be even 20 seconds faster), the AI difficulty is very inconsistent across tracks and weathers, the AI drivers will ram you as if you weren't there and behave very bizarrely sometimes (such as always taking joker on first lap if they lead). If you can't make the AI work then leave rallycross out entirely, it's not even worth including if you can't race in singleplayer
  • Online and career separated entirely. Fully offline career (especially when you can't get Racenet to work reliably, and your progress can be wiped anytime), leaderboards can be left out of singleplayer completely (only upload your times when plaing online-based modes). Online events shouldn't require having the car in career mode
  • For career mode, keep the open-ended infinitely replayable type of career but maybe think of some ways to add some details and depth to it. Do not go the Dirt 1-4 route of having a completely pre-defined career mode that you complete in 10 hours and has zero replay value. A racing sim is about depth, these are games that you can play for hundreds of hours. Some customization for career would be nice, like having some choice on legth of a championship, how often you have service etc.
  • Improve the way career difficulty works. Beating masters requires damn near world record times on every stage, not a realistic possibility for overwhelming majority of players. Add an optional world record difficulty for career or something. Also everyone should not have to start on open difficulty that is way too easy for many players.
  • Car upgrades removed completely. An unrealistic feature that does not belong in a sim, and grinding extra horsepower for your cars adds nothing positive to a game. These are homologated racing cars, not some homemade tuners
  • Better integration of DLC into online events. The current system suits no one, DLC players can't play their DLC since most events are base game content only, and vanilla players are locked out of most events. No one benefits. Needs a serious rethink
  • More unique stages per location. 30km per location is really not a whole lot. 13 locations is a lot but there could be more stages per location
  • Longer stages
  • Longer intervals between services, having it every 2-3 stages is too frequent with short stages and forgiving damage
  • Damage in DR2.0 is too pansy even with the so-called hardcore damage on, needs to be more realistic and punishing. If you really want to cater to players who can't avoid crashing then implement a singleplayer-only option to turn damage off
  • Events that don't involve driving the same stages in short and long versions (at least not in the same direction)
  • Make tyres choices more meaningful. It's a pretty underdeveloped and half-baked feature as is, basically softs most of the time and that's it
  • Guides, in-game explanations, detailed online postings that explain stuff about the game in great detail. It's very odd that a sim has advanced features and players don't have a clue how they work since Codies don't care to give any real information. This needs to change in the future
  • Better liveries for cars. In DR1 many cars had good-looking fantasy liveries, way better than the awful Dirt 4 livery generator stuff in DR2.0
  • More consistent and reliable pacenotes. There are some places in DR2.0 (as in DR1) where the pacenotes are just plain wrong, or doesn't properly warn of danger spots, or calls tight corners after high-speed areas way too late. Basically the only way you get good is you memorize the spots where the pacenotes are off. That's not how rallying should work
  • More powerful and realistic headlights, in DR2.0 they are too weak
  • Adjustable post-process filters (saturation, contrast etc.)
  • Detailed driver stats. Stats that are tracked across all gamemodes. How much you have driven with each car, location, etc. The cars stats feature in DR2.0 is just bizarre stuff, do it right this time
  • Car showroom
Edited by HoksuHoo
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All I want is making every location with more than 100km different stages. 

Handmade stages are good but cost too many time.

So what I suggest is making an much improved stage generator(I know DR4 stage generator is really bad, but I think this is a right way to make rally stages).

BTW I don't know have you mentioned it or not, REPLAY musics could be better.

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I forgot to mention, i would like to have Super Special Stages in DR 3. those 1 on 1 are more fun than WRX part of game!

 

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I agree with all the points in the OP except the "more normal visuals". I'm pretty pleased with the way DR2 pops. The RX stages feel more normal and thus feel less entertaining to me.

 

My number 1 all time pet peeve in DR2 is the way the interface obfuscates simple information so much. In particular you *very often* have to select something and wait for a whole loading screen just to get information, such as weeklies and monthlies. 

Even worse, there are many situations where you don't know if selecting something will take you to a service area, or to a starting line, and if it's the starting line you are forced to race lest you blow your event's progress. There should never, ever, be a situation where the player can't tell whether or not they're about to be forced to sit through a stage but in DR2 this situation occurs often.

On top of those 2 particularly bad situations, just in general the whole interface is terrible for obstructing access to simple info. It's super unenjoyable to use, whether you're trying to check your Time Trials records, trying to see what's next mid-event, or trying to see literally anything that's going on when you're in an online custom championship. At best, you must slowboat through at least 1 loading or server communication, sometimes even exiting an event just so you can access options from the main menu, then re-entering. At worst (particularly online midway through a championship), you have no options at all and you are left with no info at all about the races you joined. Non-readied players can't even tell if other players are waiting for them.

So if they improved 1 thing in DR3, for me, it'd be:

A UX that is consistent in providing slick, loading-screen-free, access to all pertinent info, be it about the current championship, highlighted championship, time records, or online player activity.

Edited by XenialJ
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- Offline career mode!
- More challenging stages (I find WRC 8’s stages to be far superior)

- Decent amount of content on release day.

- Dynamic weather
 

Edited by StanleyGoodspeed
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- Engines overheating from your mistakes

It would be good if leafs could get stuck on your bumper if you have driven thru a bush. High grass could also cause some issues if you drive thru a field. Snow could get stuck on the bumper too. These all would cause your engine to overheat and we should be able to "get out of the car" to clear them off against a small time penalty.

 

- Photo mode

It just needs to be in.

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A more compelling and immersive career mode (offline if possible), properly tire and surface degradation simulation (or just skip¬†the gimmick thing we now have), better tarmac physics (although the current model¬†is way better then what we had in DR1, and fun enough for me), a way to reward those who don't use assists without taking the fun for those who play with them¬†(or at least show what assist are being used in online timetables, more or less like the F1 series), random and variable weather, better UI and¬†VR and telemetry support for console users¬†offcourse... ūüėČ

 

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2 hours ago, XenialJ said:

My number 1 all time pet peeve in DR2 is the way the interface obfuscates simple information so much. In particular you *very often* have to select something and wait for a whole loading screen just to get information, such as weeklies and monthlies. 

Even worse,¬†there are many situations where you don't know if selecting something will take you to a service area, or to a starting line, and if it's the starting line you are forced to race lest you blow your event's progress. There should never, ever, be a situation where the player can't tell whether or not they're about to be forced to sit through a stage but in DR2 this situation occurs often. ÔĽŅÔĽŅ

 

Hear hear, this is true.  I had the same issue in eSports qualifiers with the UI being guesswork.

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I personally would not want them to change how they make rally stages. I love that they‚Äôre based on real life. I would like more of ‚Äėem¬†though, and more rallies of course.¬†

Edited by Strittan
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On 2/7/2020 at 1:59 PM, chukonu said:

You didn't have to do anything, you chose to pay for them. You could've just not bought them and enjoyed only the new tracks. I see this argument all the time and it makes no sense to me.

Really? What makes no sense to me is releasing a half-finished game at full price and hiding old content behind a paywall. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but what they did with the cars and locations from the old game was plain ugly in my opinion.

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2 hours ago, Strittan said:

I personally would not want them to change how they make rally stages. I love that they‚Äôre based on real life. I would like more of ‚Äėem¬†though, and more rallies of course.¬†

I agree, rally stages should continue to be based on real-life locations, but more detailed than on DR2.0.

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7 hours ago, Strittan said:

Really? What makes no sense to me is releasing a half-finished game at full price and hiding old content behind a paywall. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the game, but what they did with the cars and locations from the old game was plain ugly in my opinion.

With respect, to describe it as half-finished is just your opinion. It is entirely the prerogative of the developer of any game to decide what content is available at launch and what shall become available later as DLC.

If you know how to make a game of DR2.0’s content and quality with everything from DLC available at launch, for one price and to turn a profit on it then by all means share it with us all and maybe Codemasters could learn something from you.

7 hours ago, RGgiac said:

I agree, rally stages should continue to be based on real-life locations, but more detailed than on DR2.0.

More detail, really? The level of detail in the stages is pretty good for a rally game. Out of curiosity could expand on what detail you’d like to see more of?

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You all have some great suggestions, and I don’t have much to add since your all on a great path.  I think there should be more thought in the graphics look of the game.  What I mean is the glossy cars just don’t work in a rally game.  How can you have mud covered cars and yet a glossy finish come through?  There should be a film on the car after the first stage, the rear view mirror should not show much when the car is dirty - Mirror is useless in stage rally, anyhow, unless there are transit stages.  DR1 was getting there, then DR2 came and this became all glitz and glam.   
 

Second thing is replay camera should be reworked again, trackside was a great addition, but along side a photo mode should be advances in replay camera control.  I would also like to see some return of the GoPro camera shots like the shots of the wheels, roof, etc.  Saved replays would be great, I think 90% of the work is there already and available to marketing.  

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Some great points raised so far, a few that I would like to reiterate/expand on:

- Career Mode: definitely agree that this feels very artificial (and almost pointless) in DR2.0. The Historic Championships feel more like a "proper" career to me. 

- Class Balance: I do think this is a tricky one for CM to manage, as I like to see cars match their real-life counterparts but some classes do seem to have clear OP cars. If the next title is to get the same number of cars as DR2.0 at release (and/or if that total number of cars is planned to come via DLC) then I'd like to see further class divisions.

- ALS: I am pretty sure that ALS isn't being properly modelled on the cars at the moment. I'd like to at least see ALS correctly modelled and, if possible, ALS settings as something that players can adjust...

- Car Damage: ...I'd like to see this have a knock on effect on the damage side of things as well. Set the ALS at maximum and then driven the car sedately? Then the turbo and engine should suffer damage accordingly. As others have said as well, hardcore damage isn't punishing enough in my personal opinion and mechanical damage isn't anywhere near severe enough either. Driving the car with the engine constantly bouncing off the rev-limiter should result in problems!

- Car Performance Upgrades: I know there are different schools of thought on this but, to me, this is pointless in a rally game. Have experience reflected in My Team (so as you accumulate more time with the car the repair times come down as your mechanics get more familiar with the car) and even have the upgrades for reliability, but doing mileage to get more performance thing seems completely artificial to me: just glad it wasn't in Freeplay! 

- Rallycross AI: This has been mentioned multiple times, but is a major gripe of mine: some tracks the level seems spot on and on others the AI is ridiculously quick. Hopefully DR2.0 will provide you with enough data to determine better average lap times for the AI is RX. 

- Group B Rallycross: Pleeeeeeease model the specifications of these cars more accurately next time! 

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4 hours ago, Jack4688 said:

With respect, to describe it as half-finished is just your opinion. It is entirely the prerogative of the developer of any game to decide what content is available at launch and what shall become available later as DLC.

If you know how to make a game of DR2.0‚Äôs content and quality with everything from DLC availableÔĽŅ at launch, for one price and to turn a profit on it then by all means share it with us all and maybe Codemasters could learn something from you.

If I was in charge I would want to release as good and as complete/polished a product as possible, and therefore push the launch 6 months or so to include everything from the previous installment in the new one from launch. 

That way my reputation as a developer is increased, the loyalty of the fans is strengthened and in turn I sell more games. 

I understand that Codemasters are not Polyphony Digital in terms of size and recourses, but there’s a reason Polyphony Digital are where they are and have sold over 80 million copies of Gran Turismo titles, and keep in mind they’re on one platform only. Even though their latest installment was criticized for being incomplete at launch, they’ve sold close to 10 million copies of it alone, because they’ve got the reputation of delivering top quality games, AND all DLC since launch has been free.

 

Edited by Strittan

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Keep it on topic guys. A complaint with a suggestion is fine, but make a separate thread to continue complaints.

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21 minutes ago, Strittan said:

If I was in charge I would want to release as good and as complete/polished a product as possible, and therefore push the launch 6 months or so to include everything from the previous installment in the new one from launch. 

That way my reputation as a developer is increased, the loyalty of the fans is strengthened and in turn I sell more games. 

I understand that Codemasters are not Polyphony Digital in terms of size and recourses, but there’s a reason Polyphony Digital are where they are and have sold over 80 million copies of Gran Turismo titles, and keep in mind they’re on one platform only. Even though their latest installment was criticized for being incomplete at launch, they’ve sold close to 10 million copies of it alone, because they’ve got the reputation of delivering top quality games, AND all DLC since launch has been free.

 

Thanks for providing an answer, usually on this subject critics of the DLC situation just repeat their want for free DLC.

I think the biggest difference between GT and DR is that GT is more well-known these days than DR so it has a bigger fanbase and so profit is probably way more predictable for Polyphony than for DR.

Rally games (and rallying in general) have fallen into quite a niche since the days of Colin McRae Rally and Colin McRae Rally 2.0. Whereas GT can bank on a lot of people buying whatever their next game is because GT is the driving game for the Playstation and has been since 1997.

Codemasters dipped their toe in the water to a degree with DiRT Rally and we weren’t even sure we’d get a DiRT Rally 2.0 for a while so I think it’s still somewhat of a business risk for them.

I get your objection to it but I think comparing it to the most successful racing game of all time doesn‚Äôt add up. Also the work that goes into making real-life rally stages must be incredibly more time intensive than a racing circuit, and we don‚Äôt hear people complaining about GT and Forza etc re-using the same old boring F1 circuits like Silverstone ūüėī or Circuit de Catalunya ūüėī yet the work that went into us getting to drive Ouninpohja, Sweet Lamb and (hopefully) Drummond Hill is deemed ‚Äėnot enough‚Äô.

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On 2/10/2020 at 5:49 AM, Jack4688 said:

More detail, really? The level of detail in the stages is pretty good for a rally game. Out of curiosity could expand on what detail you’d like to see more of?

Don't get me wrong, i love the DR2 stages, but with the extra power from next-gen consoles they could be even better.¬†Maybe denser vegetation or more variation on road textures. (I would like to explain further, but my English is limited ūüėď)

Some comparisons from game stages vs real life ones:

wales1.jpg

newz1.jpg

Edited by RGgiac
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So when it comes to 'DiRT Rally 3', start with the handling. Basically it is really important by looking back to our previous game to reproduce the handling system in such a way that it feels familiar when you pick any new car. So in such a way that it feels more in line with the original DiRT Rally. More in line with the simulation, which is offered to the game. They must revive this original DiRT Rally spirit in the handling.

By the way, I would like to invite you to my topic 'How to make DiRT Rally 2.0 better by making DiRT Rally 3', which I created more than half a year ago and put in the suggestion box.

Edited by kombajnkoszoncy

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