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What features do we want to see in a future DIRT Rally game?


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I personally can't see the point of driving a sim with a keyboard. I mean, the whole point is to simulate the real experience and it's not like the career modes in these games are very compelling. With that said though, I don't think it's an issue directly related to physics but rather tweaking the input from the controllers and maybe adding some assists. At least that's what I think would be the right approach.

What I really don't want to see are things dumbed down in an attempt to appeal to a broader audience. By that I don't mean exclude players with controllers. Rather, don't try to make it as approachable as possible with simplistic physics and dumb gameplay in an attempt to appeal to the most casual gamers who barely know what a car is. Like SMS did with Project Cars 3.

I hope Codemasters dares to make a demanding and challenging hardcore rally sim - one that takes realism (in physics first and foremost) to the next level.

That doesn't mean unrealistically difficult, but rather that things that are difficult in reality should be difficult in the game, and things that are easy should be easy.

"Unrealistically difficult" is not so common for modern sims though. Only one I can think of is Asetto Corsa with some cars and how it sometimes reacts to putting a wheel on a curb or touching grass. Seems like they improved quite a bit with ACC, but I haven't tried it as the cars don't interest me. Making cars behave properly on and over the limit seems to be a bit of a challenge but modern sims handle it pretty well.

I think Rfactor 2 is a good example as it's pretty much as hardcore sim as it gets. I mean, it's pretty much only about being a sim and that's all it does. Yet, if you have well made cars (quite the variation there) you can drive them easily and FFB communicates well what's going on. The challenge is driving fast and if you make stupid mistakes you will get punished. Like, you will have to think about how you shift the weight around, how you load the suspension, being smooth with the inputs, don't think high curbs are just an extension of the road and so on and so forth. 

Richard Burns Rally often gets mentioned and it's a common misunderstanding that it's difficult to drive. The cars are actually very easy to drive, as they should. With the NGP mod there are cars, like Group B, that are more than a handful, as they should. What's difficult is thinking you can drive like Richard Burns. Another aspect, adding to that, are the stages. 

There's sort of a narrower windows for the driver inputs, as compared to other titles like DR2. You have to be on point. Getting it sort of right is not enough. It means for example that you need better car control in order to slide it around without parking in a tree. You also have to do that on stages that sometimes are very narrow, bumpy and punishing.

I'd say that's how it should be. With the caveat that I've mostly played with the NGP mod and not the vanilla game in a long while. You can also see that when comparing real footage with the game. RBR is the best match for the real thing I've seen, especially for the driver inputs. 

Dirt Rally 2.0 makes it very easy to rotate the cars and slide around. Sure, they're supposed to be easy to slide around but it's almost like all you have to do is turn the wheel and push the throttle - even i fwd cars. Feels to me that this is due to the center pivot - the cars really like to turn and slide. Then the weight shifting, throttle and brake only need to be sort of right. That sort of "window" where you get the car to really perform and you control it sliding through twists and turns is much wider. 

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On 11/26/2020 at 9:22 PM, Gregow said:

I mean, the whole point is to simulate the real experience

I thought the whole point of a videogame was to have fun 😉 

 

Some people are more comfortable with pad, keyboard or other unconventional setups and just want to drive the way the like and enjoy the experience.

That's not to say that having as authentic a rig as possible isn't fun, it certainly is, but how others enjoy games shouldn't impact how you enjoy them. 🙂 

 

DiRT Rally has always been challenging and I imagine future titles will continue to be so, though that won't limit what peripherals people can use. It's possible for a game to be difficult and accessible at the same time 😉 

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I think this is a good reference vid for developers working on the DR3 damage model https://www.reddit.com/r/dirtgame/comments/k8ztmw/surprisingly_i_was_able_to_shave_off_a_second/ that car should be smashed at the front left (suspension, cooling package etc) and be unable to continue. There are dozens of similar collisions where the car just barrel rolls instead of getting it's suspension and body trashed.

 

Then again there are a few spots occasionally on relatively smooth roads that have random collisions as if you drove into a hinckelstein , those are some kinds of bugs.

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Well for me I think the career mode needs to be harder and longer, its not to hard to jump straight through the ranks and have a top end car in no time. Need to bring in entry level rallys such as a 1 day event in a junior category as most national event do. Being able to modify road cars into rally cars,  eg building a evo 8 from road car to rally spec but It taken time to complete. Be nice to have a calendar with events so you can choose to compete in a certain championship or do one of events as test days for an upcoming championship. Rewards should be lower also need to make it hard to get the top cars in career with money. Having different tyre manufacturers to choose from and pay for tyres or try get a sponsor deal .pay to enter events . Unexpected parts failure and changing weather conditions too like dirt 4. Have stages that can be cancelled or blocked by crashed cars.  Be able to catch cars in stages or be caught if to slow/fast. Car category shouldn't be by year should be changed to power , drivetrain and modifications made to it. More interaction. Tyre wear needs to be improved and cold tyres at the start of stages too,  also stage degradation should be more simulated eg more gravel and roots on the stage that effect grip. More varierty of cars .Eg 106.l,civic,twincam, evo 8, sunbeam, mk2 2.5 Millington engine, darrian t90 and some more nationally used wrc cars like the fiesta,  imprezza s12b , mini Cooper, ds3 etc. New locations that haven't been used previously,  like ireland (yes I'm biased), belgium , France, azores, Hungary etc. Be great to see Toyota and hyundai back too but not sure if that's possible with wrc game rights. Yea so more of a national event feel to the game then progress to international level.but saying that codemasters are dominating the motorsport market at the minute.

 

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On 12/7/2020 at 4:17 PM, PJTierney said:

I thought the whole point of a videogame was to have fun 😉 

 

Some people are more comfortable with pad, keyboard or other unconventional setups and just want to drive the way the like and enjoy the experience.

That's not to say that having as authentic a rig as possible isn't fun, it certainly is, but how others enjoy games shouldn't impact how you enjoy them. 🙂 

 

DiRT Rally has always been challenging and I imagine future titles will continue to be so, though that won't limit what peripherals people can use. It's possible for a game to be difficult and accessible at the same time 😉 

Well sure, the vehicle (pun intended) of fun in a sim title is primarily the quality of the simulation. It's the idea of getting into the car and "actually" going McRae on a good stage that makes it fun. Then of course you have other aspects like competition, but surely that's secondary as you could compete in any old game.

And so, that's why I don't see the point of playing with a keyboard or controller. It's so... disconnected, and it's not like DR offers much in terms of career mode, story or other gameplay mechanics. All it's got is pretty much down to the driving experience, and you don't experience much of it through a keyboard. 

Now, obviously there are some who still see a point and if they're having fun then that's great. I'm just saying I don't get it. Thankfully I think it's possible to make the game drive well on both controllers and wheels without making compromises to the realism of the game. With keyboards I'm not so sure though.

I surely hope you're right that future titles with continue to be challenging. And I hope future titles will go further in the direction of realism, developing that as far as possible. Perhaps with the boom in sim racing even the suits could be convinced it's a good direction to take. Otherwise things often go in the opposite direction, where they get watered down.

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16 hours ago, Gregow said:

I surely hope you're right that future titles with continue to be challenging. And I hope future titles will go further in the direction of realism, developing that as far as possible. Perhaps with the boom in sim racing even the suits could be convinced it's a good direction to take. Otherwise things often go in the opposite direction, where they get watered down.

Given that there are now two DIRT studios and one is going very much in the opposite direction, I think there's a bright future ahead when it comes to Rally 🙂 

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On 12/14/2020 at 8:45 AM, ToMythTo said:

 

I think going in the opposite direction will not work that much, number don’t lie 😄

D30A529B-7953-4C54-8375-933CFD5557B9.webp

I guess that's promising. I don't mean to hate on Dirt just because it isn't my cup of tea but it's good to see more serious sims making financial sense. Seems like it could be the way the market is headed as well, which is great for everyone who loves sims.

2 hours ago, ZipZapKaZoom said:

Driving on ice in Monte Carlo is unrealistic. 

In real life, spinning your tires on ice brings your car to a smoking standstill, you need to slow down and get grip and focus on momentum. 

 

In the sim, the faster you spin, the faster you go. 

 

Not to say that Monte Carlo is realistic but it's an old myth that you shouldn't spin your tires on ice. That's in fact exactly what you should do, especially with AWD or RWD (FWD is trickier as you understeer a lot). Sure, you need momentum as well but if you don't spin the wheels you're not going to generate much force to push the car anywhere. 

I used to work at an airport many years ago. We were driving trucks, lorries and different machinery with trailers and heavily loaded wagons every day. In winter you always got stuck. Not like once in a while, but all the time every day. The old wisdom of feathering the throttle just doesn't work, at all. What you do is you floor it and when you get a little movement going you let up, so you rock back and forth - getting a little momentum going - while digging the wheels down until you find enough grip. 

Having driven on frozen lakes and many winters with a RWD car you pretty much find a sweet spot where you get the most speed, going comfortably sideways. 

Though I suppose patches of black ice on tarmac, like some places in Monte Carlo, would be more like "keep it steady and pray". 

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5 hours ago, Gregow said:

Not to say that Monte Carlo is realistic but it's an old myth that you shouldn't spin your tires on ice. That's in fact exactly what you should do, especially with AWD or RWD (FWD is trickier as you understeer a lot). Sure, you need momentum as well but if you don't spin the wheels you're not going to generate much force to push the car anywhere. 

I used to work at an airport many years ago. We were driving trucks, lorries and different machinery with trailers and heavily loaded wagons every day. In winter you always got stuck. Not like once in a while, but all the time every day. The old wisdom of feathering the throttle just doesn't work, at all. What you do is you floor it and when you get a little movement going you let up, so you rock back and forth - getting a little momentum going - while digging the wheels down until you find enough grip. 

Having driven on frozen lakes and many winters with a RWD car you pretty much find a sweet spot where you get the most speed, going comfortably sideways. 

Though I suppose patches of black ice on tarmac, like some places in Monte Carlo, would be more like "keep it steady and pray". 

The science for this is pretty clear for a uniform ice surface under rubber tyres.  And that is that you get very slightly more friction if you don't completely spin the tyres on ice but stay close to the optimal slip ratio.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Friction-coefficient-versus-wheel-slip-curves-for-various-surfaces-with-exaggerated_fig1_267941440

another reference under braking (similar to rally cars accelerating)  https://gyazo.com/e9af34c279668f4f7dca113b9e480104

However in reality several factors come into play, in most situations in the following order:

1. The surface will likely not be perfectly smooth hard ice.

2. The surface will likely not be uniform and icy under every wheel.

3. With a partially locked differential (s) the above 2 are bigger factors.

 

While driving a regular road car with an open diff, onto a small patch of ice you will be best served not to completely floor it, especially FWD, the story changes with partially locking diffs and varying road surfaces under each wheel.

What is true however; is that the ice in Monte is not slippery enough by a long shot, I think I've mentioned this in the past and it should be corrected/improved if it should be realistic.

 

Edit: If you look at all the slip ratio studies and charts, it is clear that the only place where significant slip ratio is helpful is on very loose surfaces like gravel or loose snow.  Otherwise you always lose grip if you exceed your optimal ratio.  So the initial post was basically correct, especially for older historics with open diffs, and 2wd if the wheels are on pure ice.

Edited by bn880
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* After crossing the finish line, it would be great if player stays in full control.  If player does something unreasonable, runs into stewards or does not stop - disqualify him/her, but it would be great if there's no AI control/"guiding hand" ever.  EDIT: F2C corrected me - this works exactly as I want it to  if "Time Control Braking" set to off.  Amazing stuff.

* Codriver shouldn't praise driver, especially after 2 roll overs.

* VR: allow mouse

* VR: allow moving UI closer/further and curving

Greaty enjoying DR2, pleasant surprise.  Huge thanks.

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1 hour ago, TheIronWolf said:

* After crossing the finish line, it would be great if player stays in full control.  If player does something unreasonable, runs into stewards or does not stop - disqualify him/her, but it would be great if there's no AI control/"guiding hand" ever.

.....

That's how it is in DR2.....

Except in time trial, because, hot lapping.  Though i much prefer the way it was done in DR for the time trial, allowed for some nice exterior shots - it's so rare you see the beautiful car exteriors during normal running unless you're running chase cam.  Any way i can see my car from the outside (as i would if i were really driving it) during the rally experience is a plus.  Hopefully that can be worked in without extending the time you're waiting (it's why i liked the end of the time trial in DR as it switched to a slow-mo external view while it displayed your time)

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38 minutes ago, F2CMaDMaXX said:

That's how it is in DR2.....

 

No it is not.  In freeplay, my own championship, once I cross the finish line car is braking on its own (AI takes over, not entirely but to some extent).  All assists are off, hardcore damage on.  I know how to stop and properly park the car myself. Maybe I am missing some setting?  Are you saying that's how game works after finish line in offline sessions only?

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8 hours ago, TheIronWolf said:

No it is not.  In freeplay, my own championship, once I cross the finish line car is braking on its own (AI takes over, not entirely but to some extent).  All assists are off, hardcore damage on.  I know how to stop and properly park the car myself. Maybe I am missing some setting?  Are you saying that's how game works after finish line in offline sessions only?

It's an option in the menus.

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On 2/5/2020 at 12:43 PM, caerphoto said:

Stats, stats, stats! (@Mike Dee, @Philigula)
All the numbers! How many miles we’ve driven (in each car, and in total); how many times we’ve rolled the car, most popular stage, most popular car, how many posts we’ve knocked over, how many spectators we’ve killed avoided at the last second. And so on. Related to this, per @michaelf, is UDP support on consoles. It’s already on PC, and allows for cool things like bass shakers, external dashboard displays, and @bn880’s RDA application, so having it on consoles would be great too.

I love time trials. My wish would be that all driven miles / km with all cars used would be counted. Even if I restart a run because I had an accident or was just too slow.

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Hi,

We are now in the "sim age" with games always more realistic on all aspects. For the future, I would suggest a rally game that is more realistic than ever. 

So I guess the most important feature to have need to be related to physic engine and dynamic of the cars. Force feedback on different grounds is something that on rally games has been always too "simple" and games resulted too "arcade" oriented.

All other improvements are just details. I loved dirt rally 2.0 and only thinking to have a new one in the future with more realistic dynamics and physics of cars and with realistic force feedback it's just amazing. 

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1 hour ago, Trenissimo77 said:

All other improvements are just details. I loved dirt rally 2.0 and only thinking to have a new one in the future with more realistic dynamics and physics of cars and with realistic force feedback it's just amazing. 

I was with you until you said this bit.  It's discounting the importance of gameplay and also thousands of players and that's not really kosher.  The fact is that it needs to be a sim but also needs a lot of feature improvements and fixes.  The first post in this topic has the list of features people have requested/suggested and if they ignore 99% of that and hit only physics, well, that's going to lead to very poor reception and client dis-satisfaction.

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2 hours ago, bn880 said:

I was with you until you said this bit.  It's discounting the importance of gameplay and also thousands of players and that's not really kosher.  The fact is that it needs to be a sim but also needs a lot of feature improvements and fixes.  The first post in this topic has the list of features people have requested/suggested and if they ignore 99% of that and hit only physics, well, that's going to lead to very poor reception and client dis-satisfaction.

Yes probably you are right. The meaning of my message is that I noticed on dirt rally 2.0 very poor use of feedback even if I think to have a good hardware (fanatec DD1) and a physics that need to be improved.So let’s say that physics and force feedback feeling is the top priority (from my point of view) and all other suggestions and improvements are obviously welcome and appreciated. But I don’t know how many improvements codemaster can put on future release. The more the better.

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49 minutes ago, Trenissimo77 said:

Yes probably you are right. The meaning of my message is that I noticed on dirt rally 2.0 very poor use of feedback even if I think to have a good hardware (fanatec DD1) and a physics that need to be improved.So let’s say that physics and force feedback feeling is the top priority (from my point of view) and all other suggestions and improvements are obviously welcome and appreciated. But I don’t know how many improvements codemaster can put on future release. The more the better.

Sure, I agree that the physics/handling/realism is top priority to me as well.  I think that quite honestly most dedicated DR2 players (and possibly most overall) want the next version to be as realistic as possible, with some options to back things off to their liking. (so for example ability to use a gearbox without a clutch, or use sequential in a car that had manual h box, or to be able to use low DOR, keyboard, etc etc etc)

I have no doubt that this time they have the ability to flesh out a lot of the features we had in DR2.0.  And definitely hope they listen to at least the majority of the points made in this thread and prioritize it somehow.

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For me the biggest drawback of dirt rally 1.0 and 2.0 is the career and the custom championships offline.

For example starting the carreer with some R2 cars owned by the player or make a contract as paid driver then get contracts for a higher much faster categories! Make teams with overall points that could go up and down forwarding seasons! the AI drivers will switch teams and make contracts. Add historic categories that you can take part and need to have your owned team and bought car.

As for the custom championships offline: make it possible to make a fantasy one, for example i could make a championship with cars from different categories like having a EVO X N4 categorie, a subaru impreza from 2000' and a ford fiesta  from 2010 and pick teams and drivers from career or anything we want! Adding 4 player hot seat mode in custom championship (passing the controller to another person) is always a good thing!

Last thing i would love to see is: make it more simulation to other things except driving! Example: Flipped car can not respawn just like that! make it like a scene that crowd comes and flip it like in real life and get more time penalty both player and AI! Add more random problems and situations from the past from real life wrc seasons for both the player and the AI ! transmission failures, constructor car parts failure and such. Make the cars start the stage every 1 minute and actually see the cars on stage if you catch up or they catch up to you due to problems. Or make it so that you can watch the entire drivers line-up before you and after your time. Not bad simulations and impossible times!

Racenet clubs: Add more specifications on rules of the championships like past dirts limiting cars choice by horsepower and the ability to have AI in the championship.

Personal wish! adding more WRC cars from 90's and 2000's

those things could take time to become reallity on a game ..... but i am sure that the fans could wait for a better game that will sell good!
Thanks, a DiRT Rally Fan

Edited by Clockman
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After getting an Oculus Quest 2 I have joined the "No VR, no buy"-gang. Considering pervious games have VR support I'd be surprised to see it dropped for future titles, but nonetheless I want to add it here. For me there's no way of going back to a flat panel, and I've entirely stopped playing driving games without VR (like WRC 9, which I think is an otherwise excellent title, up there with DR2). 

As for the VR-support itself though, VRSS would be a welcome addition and it would be nice if the interiors didn't glow.

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1 hour ago, Gregow said:

 and I've entirely stopped playing driving games without VR (like WRC 9, which I think is an otherwise excellent title, up there with DR2).

I think this is an interesting point for developers.  I have a similar story, not about VR, but I stopped playing WRC9 almost immediately because they don't offer a narrow enough (realistic) FOV, at least on a super ultrawide monitor.   Complete deal breaker to me, and they don't even have a support forum so, hear no evil see no evil for them.

 

Point is sometimes stuff that seems small, blocks certain people from using the product. (not that VR is that small 😄 )

Edited by bn880
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On 1/8/2021 at 1:13 PM, Trenissimo77 said:

Yes probably you are right. The meaning of my message is that I noticed on dirt rally 2.0 very poor use of feedback even if I think to have a good hardware (fanatec DD1) and a physics that need to be improved.So let’s say that physics and force feedback feeling is the top priority (from my point of view) and all other suggestions and improvements are obviously welcome and appreciated. But I don’t know how many improvements codemaster can put on future release. The more the better.

 

Handling and feeling are clearly the most important thing to get right, and DiRT Rally 2.0 almost nailed it; I am sure (because it's been discussed at length) the dev team is aiming to get that 100% spot-on in future projects.

That being said, you can have the best physics in the world but if there's nothing to do in a game then it's all for naught; GRID (2019) had this problem as the driving was great but activities were lacking.

 

On 1/8/2021 at 2:06 PM, bn880 said:

I have no doubt that this time they have the ability to flesh out a lot of the features we had in DR2.0.  And definitely hope they listen to at least the majority of the points made in this thread and prioritize it somehow.

 

People know this thread exists, have done for a while 😉 

That doesn't mean that every single post = thing that comes in a future game, but if there are trends or minor tweaks that line up with what the game designers have planned for a future title, then lots of people are going to be happy 🙂 

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Exactly, you still need to have stuff to DO , and that's the Game aspect that needs to exist and be fleshed out to make even the best simulation fun to use.

 

On the features:  Hopefully yeah;  there are a lot of very common requests in here (like tyre deg and management just as a small example) , and a few really good contributions on what is missing or can be improved on the physics side. 

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