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Power, upgraded vs non upgraded?


bogani

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Evilsmurf said:

SO. MUCH. BOOST!

https://youtu.be/c71jDPRVyRU

Also worth noting the use of the handbrake... something that other people around her said was not possible on the group B cars and the fact it has so much grip it is unable to do celebratory dounuts at the end of his run.

http://tnij.org/bcngcy3
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I would be fine with the car progression being removed altogether or being much more subtle. It is sort of immersion breaking at the moment. Maybe just a system where you can fix the cars that you have raced more faster. This sort of makes sense since you will have a better idea of what commonly goes wrong with them.

You get a sense of progression from improving your times, perhaps they should put more focus on telling you your PB times in career mode.
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SamRWD said:
Evilsmurf said:

SO. MUCH. BOOST!

https://youtu.be/c71jDPRVyRU

Also worth noting the use of the handbrake... something that other people around her said was not possible on the group B cars and the fact it has so much grip it is unable to do celebratory dounuts at the end of his run.

http://tnij.org/bcngcy3

*sigh* sam...


https://youtu.be/oAKG-kbKeIo

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Evilsmurf said:
SamRWD said:
Evilsmurf said:

SO. MUCH. BOOST!

https://youtu.be/c71jDPRVyRU

Also worth noting the use of the handbrake... something that other people around her said was not possible on the group B cars and the fact it has so much grip it is unable to do celebratory dounuts at the end of his run.

http://tnij.org/bcngcy3

*sigh* sam...


https://youtu.be/oAKG-kbKeIo

If You claim I did anything wrong, please explain how handbrakes used to work in 80's AWD Group B cars, so we can be done with this topic. Thanks!
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@SamRWD I mentioned two topics in my post...

Granted, I'll accept that the handbrake on the 80's group B cars should not exist in a sim (I'll admit to just trying to wind you up on this subject) but I will point your attention to the following post

"Quote"

samekyo said:
"One other idea- I don't know about all Group B cars, but I am fairly sure Audi Quattro did not have handbrake avaliable (because of primitive differentials construction)."

The following is a post by NGP "WorkerBee"

"I do not think that the differentials back in the 80's were primitive, as this stuff indeed does exist a hundred years or so.
Actually there was no means to unlock the drive train from the rear wheels, that's correct.

The handbrake feature in the NGP group B cars is a tribute to the modern times, if you put it that way, and to have some more fun driving them.
Actually I was thinking about disabling the HB, but decided not to.
And, before you try to argument "that's not realistic!!", if I make these cars realistic like they were in the 80's, you would not reach the finish in every second stage, simply because them cars were quite fragile."

The source post can be found here (second post down in the thread)

 http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/next-generation-physics-ngp-plugin.92651/


But I see the "To Much Grip" problem does not exsist..in the wet or the dry in this you tube video.



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Evilsmurf said:

@SamRWD I mentioned two topics in my post...

Granted, I'll accept that the handbrake on the 80's group B cars should not exist in a sim (I'll admit to just trying to wind you up on this subject) but I will point your attention to the following post

"Quote"

samekyo said:
"One other idea- I don't know about all Group B cars, but I am fairly sure Audi Quattro did not have handbrake avaliable (because of primitive differentials construction)."

The following is a post by NGP "WorkerBee"

"I do not think that the differentials back in the 80's were primitive, as this stuff indeed does exist a hundred years or so.
Actually there was no means to unlock the drive train from the rear wheels, that's correct.

The handbrake feature in the NGP group B cars is a tribute to the modern times, if you put it that way, and to have some more fun driving them.
Actually I was thinking about disabling the HB, but decided not to.
And, before you try to argument "that's not realistic!!", if I make these cars realistic like they were in the 80's, you would not reach the finish in every second stage, simply because them cars were quite fragile."

The source post can be found here (second post down in the thread)

 http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/next-generation-physics-ngp-plugin.92651/


But I see the "To Much Grip" problem does not exsist..in the wet or the dry in this you tube video.



Hello! So I understand I was right from the beginning, and we wasted our time exchanging posts. All of that could be avoided by googling the issue. This is a major problem on this board actually. Whenever I start a discussion and back my statement with a fact (most times including some kind of video) other side doesn't even bother saying "You were right". Thank You for being honest here, it is much appreciated. 
On the side note- from now on I am happy do discuss any matter related to physics realism, but I am not willing to do a research for everyone anymore. In other words: if anyone here wants to discuss a Group B handbrake thing, I am up for it. If anyone want's me to explain how it works- sorry guys, do Your own research since no one said "Thank You" single time. It is as if I was writing all that long posts explaining stuff, and the person I am answering just dissapears after being proven wrong. Or worse: suggests I am driving with assists on, cannot drive at all or am using a gamepad. Now as for racedepartament post You've quoted. I am really well aware of how NGP works and did my own research regarding it's realism. Here is my quote from this board:

As for Quattro's performance- there is more than that. First of all there is a handbrake issue, then there is damage model which is too forgiving for entire Group B fleet within NGP, and then there is the fact, that those cars use tyres that are modeled after current spec tyres. NGP's group B doesn't use historic tyres and that's an issue. 

Actually I already exchanged PM's with one of NGP's creators regarding DiRT Rally. I am not going to post it since it was a PRIVATE messages, but let me say this: don't expect him to post here. This boards reaction to real life data and facts are not encouraging physics experts to participate in a discussion where one side of it is not interested in a real world based car behaviour but is living in a bubble of it's own imagination.
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SamRWD said:
Evilsmurf said:

@SamRWD I mentioned two topics in my post...

Granted, I'll accept that the handbrake on the 80's group B cars should not exist in a sim (I'll admit to just trying to wind you up on this subject) but I will point your attention to the following post

"Quote"

samekyo said:
"One other idea- I don't know about all Group B cars, but I am fairly sure Audi Quattro did not have handbrake avaliable (because of primitive differentials construction)."

The following is a post by NGP "WorkerBee"

"I do not think that the differentials back in the 80's were primitive, as this stuff indeed does exist a hundred years or so.
Actually there was no means to unlock the drive train from the rear wheels, that's correct.

The handbrake feature in the NGP group B cars is a tribute to the modern times, if you put it that way, and to have some more fun driving them.
Actually I was thinking about disabling the HB, but decided not to.
And, before you try to argument "that's not realistic!!", if I make these cars realistic like they were in the 80's, you would not reach the finish in every second stage, simply because them cars were quite fragile."

The source post can be found here (second post down in the thread)

 http://www.racedepartment.com/threads/next-generation-physics-ngp-plugin.92651/


But I see the "To Much Grip" problem does not exsist..in the wet or the dry in this you tube video.



Hello! So I understand I was right from the beginning, and we wasted our time exchanging posts. All of that could be avoided by googling the issue. This is a major problem on this board actually. Whenever I start a discussion and back my statement with a fact (most times including some kind of video) other side doesn't even bother saying "You were right". Thank You for being honest here, it is much appreciated. 
On the side note- from now on I am happy do discuss any matter related to physics realism, but I am not willing to do a research for everyone anymore. In other words: if anyone here wants to discuss a Group B handbrake thing, I am up for it. If anyone want's me to explain how it works- sorry guys, do Your own research since no one said "Thank You" single time. It is as if I was writing all that long posts explaining stuff, and the person I am answering just dissapears after being proven wrong. Or worse: suggests I am driving with assists on, cannot drive at all or am using a gamepad. Now as for racedepartament post You've quoted. I am really well aware of how NGP works and did my own research regarding it's realism. Here is my quote from this board:

As for Quattro's performance- there is more than that. First of all there is a handbrake issue, then there is damage model which is too forgiving for entire Group B fleet within NGP, and then there is the fact, that those cars use tyres that are modeled after current spec tyres. NGP's group B doesn't use historic tyres and that's an issue. 

Actually I already exchanged PM's with one of NGP's creators regarding DiRT Rally. I am not going to post it since it was a PRIVATE messages, but let me say this: don't expect him to post here. This boards reaction to real life data and facts are not encouraging physics experts to participate in a discussion where one side of it is not interested in a real world based car behaviour but is living in a bubble of it's own imagination.


Sam, you are clearly not pleased with the realism this game is offering, or in your case, the lack of it. I'm pretty sure I read in a post that you would stop posting on this forum as the community here thought everything was fine and you no longer "wish to educate people".

Maybe this is not the game for you after all?



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@bogani
Thank You for Your comment. I'd forward You to a pool result on this topic:
http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/6029/does-the-game-have-too-much-grip/p1
Clearly " community here thought everything was fine " problem is not longer an issue. Majority of Codemasters customers want realistic physics now.
On top of that I remember clearly being called "harsh", or even "rude" after saying "I won't educate people" anymore. My post above explains my thinking process behind it, so maybe thise offended by my previous way of putting it will understand. 
DiRT is supposed to be a sim. Maybe people used to DiRT 1, 2, 3 physics should look elsewere, not me.
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Sam, just cut it out. You aren't some martyr fighting a righteous fight. If you think you should be thanked for everything you post than clearly the internet may not be the right place for you. You dont get a single "thank you" because these are forums to talk in. This isn't some research project that you're pulling all the weight for. If you dont want to share knowledge, then don't, you won't be hurting our feelings. People call you rude because you come off like an elitist ass, saying the game should only be able to be played with wheels and no assists. Its tiresome seeing you act like you're the pillar of the community and the only one that knows anything, then whining about it.
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I think that @SamRWD's haeart is the right place, but he is being hampered because English isn't his first language. He wants what most of us here want, DiRT Rally to be the best it possibly can be.
No doubt his heart is in the right place, but his attitude can't be blamed on a language barrier. 
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FlakHound said:
Sam, just cut it out. You aren't some martyr fighting a righteous fight. If you think you should be thanked for everything you post than clearly the internet may not be the right place for you. You dont get a single "thank you" because these are forums to talk in. This isn't some research project that you're pulling all the weight for. If you dont want to share knowledge, then don't, you won't be hurting our feelings. People call you rude because you come off like an elitist ass, saying the game should only be able to be played with wheels and no assists. Its tiresome seeing you act like you're the pillar of the community and the only one that knows anything, then whining about it.
Hello! I am sorry, but I cannot discuss a topic that is based with false assumptions. You are welcome to have Your own opinion including calling me an "elitist ass", but at the same time moderators could see it as forum rules violation. I would forward You to forums rules topic, please notice following points:

A Thread, Comment or Posting must:

  • Be accurate (where it states facts).
A Thread, Comment or Posting must not:
  • Be defamatory to any person.
  • Be obscene, offensive, hateful or inflammatory (also known as "flame baiting" and/or "trolling").
  • De-rail the original topic of the Op (I admit being guilty of this, however only replying to already offtopic posts IMHO)
  • You will not partake in personal arguments with other members of the community on the forums. If you have problems with other members either resolve your issues in private via PM or email, or use the "Ignore" feature of the bulletin board system in order to ignore that person.
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FlakHound said:
No doubt his heart is in the right place, but his attitude can't be blamed on a language barrier. 
Yeah it can. If you are not 100% literate in a language you won't be able to convey your message with 100% accuracy. Add to that the fact that it is almost impossible to guess someones emotions based on a wall of text, and you get this problem.

A person unable to adequately express himself in a room full of people unable to guess his intentions.

Even natural English speakers have the unknown intention problem when using a net forum. I have a horrible writing style, it comes off as stiff, authorative and all knowing, but I'm none of those things in real life. And I know enough people that I've met through the net who will happily tell you that you used to think I was a jerk until they met me in person.

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Just to clarify- I recall writing one post that was harsh- admit it. I also would like to remind You, that I apologised the very next post. If anyone is offended by my English language abilities- I apologise.
I've started my activity on this board with assumption, that it works like all other rally releated boards I participate in. People are friendly, atmosphere is great, and the discussion is always worth my time. Please look what happened in this topic. Another user had other opinion than me. I forwarded him towards an information source that could end our post exchange followed by less than 120 second long research. If everyone would verify his information using the internet, we could resolve all questions and discussions here pretty much on the spot. Instead I've been looking up video footage, and writing up long posts all the time. After doing so people who I have had argument with could obviously not follow my posts with their proof, so they ignored facts and started throwing another posts, usually not releated to facts even remotely. Let me show how it works:

User X: Rally cars can deaccelerate from 100 km/h to 0 on wet gravel using 5 meters breaking distance.
Sam: Hello, thank You for Your input. Here is real life video showing otherwise LINKHERE. Also please notice unrealistic DiRT behaviour of this car here driving on wet mud and entering the corner full speed LINKHERE. Please notice how car deaccelerates in the corner instead of going out because of cars mass inertia.
User X: But it is an onboard of Colin McRae, You cannot accelerate a car to as high speed as he does, because only real life driver can press throttle and upshift. You cannot go faster than 3rd gear in DiRT. (I WILL ALSO GO SILENT REGARDING OTHER PROOF YOU HAVE PROVIDED, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO ADMIT BEING WRONG).
Sam: How about other proof I have provided in this topic?
User X: Maybe You should turn Your assists off, and also I am driving using steering wheel with clutch, so I can judge how breaking distances work.

I am a sim enthusiast since I remember. DiRT came out of nowhere (well, it actually came from even worse place: DiRT legacy) and it instantly became a very important thing for me. Developers stated, that they want to give us realistic experience. I did my research and experience is not realistic. I provided proof. I proposed tests, I challenged my opponents to show me wrong using the simplest method I could come with to make it easy. 
I am not an elite. I am far from being one. I am used to help people on other boards. I am used for users to be polite torwards each other. I cannot say this is what I've found there. If developers would follow more sim oriented boards, I'd leave on the spot. However developers are not aware of what sim enthusiast think, since that crowd is not willing to peak on DiRT forums. And if they do, they follow discussion on realism. What they find? Examples similar to one above. 

So, is expecting people to write "thanks", or "I was wrong" too much? How long does it take? I assure You writing my posts takes more than that. Usually proving some statement is wrong takes more than researching if it was wrong. On top of that writing "I was wrong" shows everyone that there is nothing wrong in admitting that, and shows developers that people who voted against facts in the pool, changed their minds. I AM NOT EDUCATING ANYONE AS "ELITHIST ASS". I AM SHOWING HOW REAL LIFE RALLYING WORKS SO ME, AND LIKEMINDED PEOPLE CAN GET A REALISTIC SIMULATOR.

ALSO MY INTENTION IS NOT TO BE RUDE. I VALUE FACTS AND THOSE ARE MY LANGUAGE. IF I OFFEND ANYONE, I AM TRULLY SORRY. I RESPECT YOUR OPINION, PLEASE FEEL FREE TO NOT RESPECT MINE, BUT AT LEAST HAVE RESPECT FOR FACTS. I HOPE WE ALL GET WHAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR IN DIRT RALLY, AND THAT IS MY HONEST WISH TO EVERYONE HERE. 
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Sam, a couple of days ago I read one of Your posts, which contained a message along the lines of - "if people respond like jerks to me, then I'll start responding like a jerk to them". My first, immediate thought after reading it was "And how's that going to help exactly?". That gave me an impression of You being a pompous, obnoxious ass, with a tendency of getting butthurt way too easily. Maybe that was the "harsh post" You've been referring to, don't remember which thread it was in. Using lmgtfy script above didn't help either, because it's universally known on the internet as a procedure for "member of Master Race" showing "dirty peasants" how moronic they are.

Mind You, after reading the reply above, my impression has changed (especially given the fact, that I absolutely agree with You on quest for realism part), but I'm not surprised that some guys started commenting on perceived bad attitude of Yours.
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@JellyDriver I am glad my explanation made You understand my reasoning a bit. The post You're refering to is the one I apologised for, or the one releated to it. My approach adjustment You question as "not helping" is not meant to help at all. I cannot change other peoples reaction to facts. It is meant to help me- I am not spending my time over certain things if these are not appreciated/ needed.

IMHO the use "lmgtfy" is nothing else than an expression of frustration that actually forwards to some kind of information. In other words I accomplished two things by choosing that form of information share. I backed up my statement, that I am willing do discuss, but I am not willing to research for others, and I researched for other person anyways. If it looked as if I was showing off as a "member of master race", then I'd refer to my previous, a bit longer post where I adress that issue. 

I cannot controll people mind. If showing someone wrong by using facts makes people feel "disrty peasants" that's not something I am guilty of. If anyone has any other doubts please feel free to ask me directly- I am more than happy to answer, since there is no research material about me on the internet for anyone to look for on his own. 

Cheers!
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Areyouben said:
Yeah it can. If you are not 100% literate in a language you won't be able to convey your message with 100% accuracy. Add to that the fact that it is almost impossible to guess someones emotions based on a wall of text, and you get this problem. =
Good thing we have these: :smile: :smiley: :love: 
Hello! I would like to make an observation. This very topic has 2 full pages and just started third one. It is around 40 posts, around 12 users (sorry, I don't have enough time to count it precisely). Exluding Your example emoticons, we can find about 6 emoticons. ONE OF THEM IS THE ONE I USED. Still the only person that is called rude is me, despite trying not to be rude at all, and despite other people using offensive words. Please, let's all just continue our discussions.
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Well, this topic can be closed. I now know that you see current BHP when you have purchased a car, and after that you see how much the upgrades deliver.

We all want the best possible game/simulation of the sport we love - Rally. Let's leave it at that.  :)
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Why on earth can cars in a sim be 'upgraded'? Surely the car is the car? Maybe a works team has better parts than a privateer, but I'll never understand 'unlocking' something that gives you a few % extra power or similar.
Works WRC teams are constantlydeveloping and upgrading their cars often from event to event chasing every small gain possible if they have a sniff at the champoinship. Not much different from F1 except maybe the budget lol
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sfcpaulo said:
Why on earth can cars in a sim be 'upgraded'? Surely the car is the car? Maybe a works team has better parts than a privateer, but I'll never understand 'unlocking' something that gives you a few % extra power or similar.
Works WRC teams are constantlydeveloping and upgrading their cars often from event to event chasing every small gain possible if they have a sniff at the champoinship. Not much different from F1 except maybe the budget lol
Yeah but they're not picking up an extra 40hp out of nowhere because they drove further is what bugs people
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FlakHound said:
Yeah but they're not picking up an extra 40hp out of nowhere because they drove further is what bugs people
This is going to sound silly, but data logged in competition is still data that can be used to improve a team's car. Granted the numbers are rather exaggerated, but if DIRT Rally has to have an upgrade system, I think it's much more "logical" (and fun, please don't kill me) to improve a car after observing how it performs in a few rallies rather than just throwing money at it.
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That's true, but somehow I suspect that the AI competitors in this game don't benefit or develop in the same way. If they did, and sometimes you were left behind by improvements to the competition then maybe, but I don't think that's how it's implemented here, it's intended to be more of a Forza/GT-esque grind.

To be honest, I thought the idea that RBR had with teams, managers and unique driver skills/personalities worked very well; it enabled me to create a very realistically tuned set of drivers to match real life championships. Could have done with some 1/2/3 car teams and a few more of them, but what was there worked really well.
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I think Carreer unlocks should not affect custom events. In other words- if You are into unlocking stuff, then do carrer. If You want to just practice, or do online event, then You should have all unlocks to be avaliable so You can choose which ones You want to use.
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That's true, but somehow I suspect that the AI competitors in this game don't benefit or develop in the same way. If they did, and sometimes you were left behind by improvements to the competition then maybe, but I don't think that's how it's implemented here, it's intended to be more of a Forza/GT-esque grind.

To be honest, I thought the idea that RBR had with teams, managers and unique driver skills/personalities worked very well; it enabled me to create a very realistically tuned set of drivers to match real life championships. Could have done with some 1/2/3 car teams and a few more of them, but what was there worked really well.

Maybe even implement budgets, put on new tires or save money running old tires with less grip. Burn the clutch, a new one will have to be fitted and that'll cost. I'm not that impressed by the percentage system when on service. How do you even repair a clutch 3 percent?
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