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#WishlistWednesday - 20/05/2015


justbiglee

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My wish:
- Physics revamp. (more here http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/6029/does-the-game-have-too-much-grip/p1). Also please read my post from here: http://forums.codemasters.com/discussion/5760/dirt-rally-feedback-list , here it is:
SamRWD said:
OK I've tried to stay away from a RBR discussion here, but I need to adress this topic. I will actually start with another example to begin with:

I've been "playing" flying simulators (rotary wing is my thing, fixed wing aircrafts are boring for me) since I got my first computer. Actually, there were helicopter "simulators" made for Amiga before, so it began even earlier for me. I've been playing pretty much RBR since it's release date (I was enjoying CMR series before). Now there is one common issue with all true, realistic simulators that makes them enjoyable for simulators enthusiasts, and makes them unnaproachable for everyone elese unless certain features are introduced. The term is:

LEARNING CURVE.

It takes a lot of time to learn how to fly (controll) a virtual helicopter. It is actually arguably more difficult than driving a car in RBR. It is certainly much more difficult than flying a real thing (as was mentioned by all real life helicopter pilots I came across). It takes just as much time to learn all the aircraft systems, instruments, procedures. It takes time to learn how to communicate with other pilots, air traffic control guys, etc. It takes time to be fluent with all above separately. Imagine how much time and effort it takes to get You to the point where You can do all of them at once.

1How to approach learining curve, so casual players are attracted? Simplify each step (control, system, communication), make them automated, or remove something alltogether. If You don't, casual player will leave since they are not willing to spend time learning. They want to experience something that is extremally difficult and complex without much effort. They don't want 1/1 representation, they want an illusion. Example of such product: Microsoft Flight. Project dead and studio closed about two month after release (?) despite a great support from simulation crowd on a conceptual stage of game development. Developers did not listen/ care, casual players bought the game, but since their attention spawn is short, they moved over to other casual games. Dedicated simulation crowd did not care since the product did not appeal to them.
2How to approach learning curve, so simulator enthusiasts are attracted? Make a realistic representation of each system, and let player explore and learn each one as the learning part is what simulator fans enjoy. Take that away, and customer will leave. This crowd wants 1/1 representation even, if it makes the experience more difficult than real life (since in a simulator You don't feel any forces with Your body, You get only visual imput i.e. when hovering a helicopter). They don't want any simplification, assists etc. They know that initially they are going to struggle, and they don't mind. The profficency progression is what they are about, that's the sattisfaction they're after. Example product: Microsoft Flight Simulator series, X- plane. Both products are still alive, both developers are still making money from simulator extensions (extension= pretty much a proffesionally made mod) made by independent studios via licence agreements.

3How to approach learning curve, so both casual, and dedicated players can enjoy a product, and developer makes money? It is difficult, but can be done. First let's look what doesn't work- making a casual game and trying to add realistic features that are not 100% accurate since the platform was not ment to support those (complex) systems in the first place. There are multiple examples of those. Also making a 100% realistic platform won't work in a long perspective, since simmulation crowd is dedicated, but much smaller than casual players. I will expand on finantial aspect of this topic later on. There are two ways to provide both above principles:

a) make two separate games
b) make single realistic simulator, and add assists/ difficulty option

It is easy to understand how a) will work. It is the most common approach. What is difficult about making a simulator is complexity of all the systems and features. In DiRT, that'd be mainly phyiscs. What's easy is- if You can make a realistic representation, You've succeeded. Casual games provide other challenges- game balance (You don't use real life data, but use a simplification that needs to be balanced, designed the right way). What is easy- all the features are simplified, less complex, and after right design choices are made, they don't take as much time to develop.

 As for b), there is a very important factor to understand- simulation crowd will stay away from casual games, since they hate the whole concept (I am sorry, but RBR crowd hates previous DiRT titles). On the other hand casual players not only don't mind a simulation approach if initial game options include "easy mode" (even by default), but will actually feel more immersed, since they are looking for an illusion. The whole concept of "I am driving a simulator, and I am good at it" is part of that illusion they are after.

How does the whole thing transfer over to DiRT Rally?
Make a realistic simulator, and THEN add an easy option on top of that. Does it mean the game will be "more difficult than real life" on realisic mode? YES, because You cannot experience any clues about what's going on with Your car other than visual clues and FFB. Getting a G force input with Your body is one of most important clues for real life drivers that we are missing in simulation.

Now, let's talk money.
We all must understand, that those products are not made "for fun", but those studios are running a business. They want money, so if they can release DiRT 4, and make a lot of $ from casual players, they will go down that road rather than making a simulator called DiRT Rally which will not give them as finantial benefits. Simulation crowd is dedicated, they are hungry for 1/1 simulator, but the initial revenue will not compare with DiRT 4 predictions. Combining both "realistic" and "easy" modes is a good way to combine $ income from both crowds. Since this board doesn't want to use subscribtion model (I expected dedicated simulation crowd will be willing to go down that road especially given current market situation in rally simulation departament, but I was wrong), that's the only realistic way for Codemasters to make it worth their time.

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My main wish for this game is to have an open Custom Event mode, in which everything is available from the start and you have freedom of choice in that specific mode. What I mean is, basically, have all cars(fully upgraded, as they should be to represent their real-life counterparts), have all locations unlocked and it would be nice but not essential to have a good default repair team on that mode too. The idea would be to make custom event a simplified way of getting to the racing.
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my lap times and others in the world shown with positions.i want to compete for the fastest times .i even have a video now which could be the fastest ever on one track but no one answers or clarifies the times ;( . people want to go fast,see where they place.

can some simple table be knocked up updated real time or link to here with times for tracks and cars used. 
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Why can't you see your position after finishing a race? I can see where I placed overall. During the replay Press B, when the stage results screen appears Press Y. That shows you your world position, as well as your friends world position
117
This. I've seen that table when playing Career.


My one wish...  Dynamic stage conditions
- roads would change over time depending on number of cars that passes
- previous weather would have an effect on how and how quickly the stage conditions would change
- a bit of randomly generated holes and ruts
- feedback from safety crews to help the player gauge how much to push
- pace note additions to cover safety crew findings
- mud dragged onto tarmac
- gravel cleaning, less grip for the first car on the road, gradual increase in grip levels if you stay on the line

(when it comes to updates to the physics and car handling I only see a need for some tweaks, no overhaul is needed in my opnion)
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Msportdan said:
Apart from the obvious handling fux on tarmac etc. Replays available at any point not just after a race. I ask because these during a stage learning process, can be useful to help you figure your lines.
When I first started playing racing games I learned so much from watching my replays and comparing them to what you see in real world rally footage
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zenatez said:
physics!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vByLmmLqEZE
This is a good comparison with real life and the game. less grippy and more power, harder to master but in the end more control. :smile: 
Thank You for this video!!!!!!!
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Greetings Codies,

first of all, the game is awesome! I think you are going/driving in the right direction :)

There are 2 tweaks I`d like to be changed in the game:

1. driver view "camera shake" to be shaking (a tiny) little bit more - current 100% on slider still feels somehow bland to me

2. I am a wheel user and in-game wheel acts way too sensitive around +- 10° - hopping left/right 25°-30° all the time even tho my wheel is (almost) stationary. I have linearity set on 0.

Thanks. Best
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1. Clutch - In Sequential mode... Very important!

2. Leaderboards from anywhere! - Those leaderboards we see at the end of each stage to compare with our friends/community, let us access them from the main menu!

3. More FOV options, seat adjustment etc! Let us get dialled into the car the way we like.


That's it for now, I put more hours into Dirt Rally in 2 weeks than I have in Dirt 2 after 5 years, and I considered Dirt 2 one of my favourite rally games. The simulation aspect is the way forward, I'm just waiting for that improved FFB.


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physics patch please 

zenatez said:
physics!

physiscs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!FTLOG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ShoMV said:
2. I am a wheel user and in-game wheel acts way too sensitive around +- 10° - hopping left/right 25°-30° all the time even tho my wheel is (almost) stationary. I have linearity set on 0.
https://www.dirtgame.com/uk/blog/4610

"Aside from the work we have been doing with v0.4 we also had a visit from Hyundai WRC driver Kevin Abbring last Friday. Many of you will know that Kevin has been setting some impressive times on the DiRT Daily Events but it was great to get him in and have him giving feedback directly to our simulation team.

His experience driving pretty much every car we have in the game meant that he was able to give us plenty of insight into areas where we can refine the simulation and we’ll be working on these improvements over the coming months. He was also able to get hands on with our new Force Feedback systems and he has helped us dial in some base settings that have got things weighted correctly based on his real world experience. Next on the list is to tie up that hard work, make some improvements to our settings screens and hopefully get in your hands for some testing in the next few weeks.”


;)



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Clearly modding (open the soft for modding + modding tools available).

You've done a great job, clearly in the right direction (simu orientated, excellent graphics, great rally environment, ...). Would be a shame to reduce the soft to existing content (even including the great upcoming features). There is a real passionnate community looking after sharing tracks, 3D models, skins, .... on next gen rally soft.

You can see how many contents have been done on RBR, Rfactor and Assetto.
This way Dirt Rally would definitely become THE reference for rally fans :)

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My one wish...  Dynamic stage conditions
- roads would change over time depending on number of cars that passes
- previous weather would have an effect on how and how quickly the stage conditions would change
- a bit of randomly generated holes and ruts
- feedback from safety crews to help the player gauge how much to push
- pace note additions to cover safety crew findings
- mud dragged onto tarmac  <<< THIS
- gravel cleaning, less grip for the first car on the road, gradual increase in grip levels if you stay on the line

(when it comes to updates to the physics and car handling I only see a need for some tweaks, no overhaul is needed in my opnion)

Really hope they have mud on some parts of the tarmac stages in Germany, especially at the edges where theres overhanging trees that would cause mud build up from leaves collecting etc. And mud or gravel coming onto the tarmac where a dirt track joins from the side etc, little touches like this would make it extra special!
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zenatez said:
physics!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vByLmmLqEZE
This is a good comparison with real life and the game. less grippy and more power, harder to master but in the end more control. :smile: 
The one on the right has better graphics :open_mouth: lol
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FFB, physics and menus etc are being worked on, there's more cars, stages etc due down the line... I would really like to see dynamic weather within the stages. However, my wish is Modding, for cars, tracks and liveries :smile:


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I would REALLY like to see a free camera mode. Instant replay would also be very very nice. Also, I'd like to see the opponents on the starting order, and to be able to follow their tracks when I drive on the SS. One more thing apart from a customizable name on the car would be a recce option about a stage, similar to the option in DiRT.
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Stages, stages and more stages. For me this is the most important thing in a rally game content wise. If I remember correctly, there's currently two longer stages per location and ten different configurations of them. In my opinion in the final game there should be at least two or three more of these longer 7 minute stages and I wouldn't mind if there were even longer stages (10-15 minutes long). 

Currently there is so few original parts of road per location that I'm starting to remember them and I'm starting to get away with ignoring the co driver more and more often, that isn't ideal in a rally sim. Of course it's forgivable now when the game is two weeks old but in the long run I'd like to see the current locations getting more content.

I kinda got bored to the championships already because they get really repetitive when you're basically driving the same six stages over and over. 

Still good work CM and best of luck! The game is really enjoyable already and I really like the direction you've taken.
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Juppo126 said:
Stages, stages and more stages. For me this is the most important thing in a rally game content wise. If I remember correctly, there's currently two longer stages per location and ten different configurations of them. In my opinion in the final game there should be at least two or three more of these longer 7 minute stages and I wouldn't mind if there were even longer stages (10-15 minutes long). 

Currently there is so few original parts of road per location that I'm starting to remember them and I'm starting to get away with ignoring the co driver more and more often, that isn't ideal in a rally sim. Of course it's forgivable now when the game is two weeks old but in the long run I'd like to see the current locations getting more content.

I kinda got bored to the championships already because they get really repetitive when you're basically driving the same six stages over and over. 

Still good work CM and best of luck! The game is really enjoyable already and I really like the direction you've taken.
I'm afraid we are stuck with the shorter stages because Codemaster's said that the engine just can't take longer stages as the engine is at its maximum capability for stage lengths.
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AI driven spectators. Having runners like in DiRT 3 would be good. What would even be better is if you gave spectators the ability to attempt to avoid the player's out of control car. Especially in open areas in Wales where you can actually hit the spectators, having them run for their lives is a lot more interesting than just resetting the player.
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My wish (sorry for english):
if is possible to save two different settings wheel profiles (one with h shift clutch and one with sequential  p.ex like assetto corsa)
My.wheel system: g25, sequential shifter homemade, h shifter thrust th8a
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My sole wish remains the same as before:

Hotseat rallying

This is something that I'm sure many old Rally Trophy and Richard Burns fans miss, myself included ofc.
The hotseat mode in RBR was a little slim, not including a proper championship, but individual rallies.
Rally Trophy however had a championship mode for up to 8 players to play locally, and you could even save your progress and continue later.
I sorely miss the times when 2-6 of my friends got together and we'd play RT for a day or a whole weekend, often very competetively!
We even had a tv screen set up with a duplicate of the picture, so those waiting for their turn to drive could spectate the rally.
I understand that online racing is the thing these days, but when it comes to rallying, it's nowhere near as fun as local racing with the added social aspect and excitement.
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gfRally said:
zenatez said:
physics!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vByLmmLqEZE
This is a good comparison with real life and the game. less grippy and more power, harder to master but in the end more control. :smile: 
The one on the right has better graphics :open_mouth: lol
Haha, Indeed xD
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1) Better FOV and seat adjustments.
2) Let me drive the car before and after the stage proper. At least give me the option to do that
3) Clutch pedal available regardless of configuration I should be able to switch from H-pattern shifter to sequential without having to change the entire setup
4) Better livery management 
5) Give the por co-driver more volume, please.
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