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Dear Codemasters 

I speak in the name of my online F1 League, as a member of its staff. We are a large community of over 100 simracers, our name is "F1CS", and we organize 2 races per week using your F1 2019.
Unfortunately, we notice that the more the time goes and the worst it gets with your game. We thought at the beggining that all the bugs reported right here on your forum would be considered by yourself, but nothing has changed and more problems came...

We are seriously considering about changing game to organize our league races for the future  if the same issues are repeating over and over again. 
There is a non exhaustive list of what we want to see in your F1 2020 to come : 

- Dedicaded servers, No more P2P hosting servers !!!!
- The possibility for the admins of this server to give penalties, and to cancel them, in the case of a non-fair penalty given by your game
- 4 more slots in those servers dedicated to the "stewards" who will give the penalties
- The possibility to have and save the full online session replay in every angles.
- To no longer be linked to the Steam servers plateform to play online sessions

- More realism in the gameplay, and setups
- More feedback realism fo those you are using a Steering wheel
- The possibility to use the Multiplayer car in Solo sessions (including Time Trial)

If there are no improvements in the future, we will have no choice but to give up with your game, and we will find another game who is more adapted to our requirements.

Thank you for your attention

[F1CS]Nebu
Ligue F1CS






 

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Posted (edited)

Thank Nebuloose
You have our full support.
We have been organizing races on this platform for three years (F1 2017-2018-2019) and each time the services deteriorate from February-March.
And I notice that even when professional drivers organize a Grand Prix it turns into a disaster.
Hopefully we will find an attentive ear this time.

Cln_Coyote-administrator of F1CS

Edited by F1CSColonelCoyo

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9 hours ago, NebuLoose said:

- To no longer be linked to the Steam servers plateform to play online sessions

..Why? Steamworks is such an amazing tool that I cannot understand why would anyone want to remove it.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features

 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, UP100 said:

..Why? Steamworks is such an amazing tool that I cannot understand why would anyone want to remove it.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features

Because Steam is slow to fix issues / vulnerabilities, has occasional outages. It also extends support to older OSes. It should not be supporting W7, but Vista support was only discontinued when there were no longer a significant proportion of gamers using the OS. I feel this decision to drop support will take longer with W7. 

It is still 32-bit compatible (many games are not), there is no good reason for this. 64-bit W7 was mainstream long before the end of support. Pure 32-bit CPUs ended production around 2006 (Intel Core 2 and higher, discounting Intel Atom variants which was around 5 years later, not that anyone would game on them - AMD earlier in 2004 went 64-bit with K8 and higher) and here we are still straddling architectures in 2020.

Edited by steviejay69
bit more logic for Atom
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5 minutes ago, steviejay69 said:

Because Steam is slow to fix issues / vulnerabilities, has occasional outages.

RaceNet on the other hand is down every week 😛

Codies will most likely be unable to benefit from reinventing the wheel. That's why there are frameworks and APIs that can be used.

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17 minutes ago, UP100 said:

RaceNet on the other hand is down every week 😛

Codies will most likely be unable to benefit from reinventing the wheel. That's why there are frameworks and APIs that can be used.

Doesn't really alter the fact that Steam should improve.

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Steam has frequent outages. 
all too often league races get interrupted because steam dies. sometimes even for a short while. but after 24 laps in a league race that is the most enoying thing. 
Especially with games like this where you usually race about once a week with a league and dates are set months in advance, It's just very sloppy and a sign of not taking your own game seriously enough to just be dependant on steam. Steam doesn't care about our little league races. Codemasters should. Because it is what's keeping the online community turning right now. Cross-platform is long overdue anyway. 

"codies" make their sub-par product even more sub-par by making its functioning dependant on a not very reliable service like steam. So when steam dies 20 drivers, commentators, stewards and viewers alike are within a split second staring at their reflections with a "lost connection to steam" error on their screen.  (some people might have had the pleasure of driving around a bit longer seeing everybody disconnect and doing a few more turns with that sinking feeling knowing the fun is over)

Of course it's not a disaster if it goes down every now and then as long as it gets announced in advance. (or in the middle of the night...)  

And @UP100 Does zealously defending trash come with the moderator function? 
I just don't understand how you can defend the ABYSMAL state the multiplayer is in. it is NOT okay. it needs fixing YESTERDAY and if they don't there really is no more hope for this game. 
They don't need to reinvent the wheel they need to massively improve on the wheels already invented and become the pinnacle of e-sports like f1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. 
Their lack of ambition with one of the biggest licenses in the gaming world is staggering. 

@BarryBL if i may be allowed to ask 1 question today. You usually don't answer my questions but this is one that concerns a lot of us: 

-Does Codemasters indeed feel that the place that online multiplayer (in f1 2019) is in right now is all fine and dandy? 

Just a simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice, as to not steal any more of your time. I think there's still some 9 month old bugs that everybody has seen a million times already that you can ask people for a video about..

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, UP100 said:

..Why? Steamworks is such an amazing tool that I cannot understand why would anyone want to remove it.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/features

 

Ok, let's talk a little about steam since you are apparently very fan.
What is the interest for Codemaster at present in using steam?

- Microtransaction: Understandable on the part of the publisher to use a platform grouping the majority of games and for which players have got into the habit of buying products, frankly no worries, we can't blame them to use it, however a detached version of steam would be welcome, as most other editors do. Why will you tell me? In order not to be completely dependent on steam, some players are tired of being in the steam boot constantly, an internet cut, a communication problem with the authentication server and your game is inaccessible, it is lamentable of our days.
- Multiplayer server made available by steam: It is only for a cost issue, if Codemaster lets this part manage by steam, it is only so as not to devote development time and therefore money at the expense of players who are tired of this instability. We don't care to be able to play with Japanese or West Americans, give us real servers, or the possibility of renting them, and give us a netcode worthy of the name, you are not amateurs!
-Steam Input: As before, it takes development time and money since the peripherals are APIs and drivers provided by steam. But tell me? Are you programmers or just assemblers?
-DRM Steam: As before, programming time and therefore less money to spend during development. So that in the end the game is still hacked.
-Steam Voice: Completely useless, if at least it was team channels. Apart from hearing idiots screaming at cheats or crying at each touch, I don't see what you like in it.
-User authentication and possession: You do not want us to modify and steal your game, it is completely understandable and honorable, but in fact, cheaters, mods and thieves are there, it's a fact, you just have to see the CLM tables.
-Anti-cheat valve: As before, useless and non-functional, a joke.

We want servers worthy of the name, we are ready to rent them, and that does not prevent to keep your current P2P system, but as for serious leagues (even if we are only amateurs) we do not we can't afford it anymore, it's a matter of leagues survival.

Edited by F1CSColonelCoyo

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Posted (edited)

I doubt I'm talking to a programmer, so I'll most likely be unable to satisfy you with any of my answers.

Next to no game is made with 100% self made technology. Even just creating a window on Windows requires you to use WinAPI for example.

Reinventing the wheel isn't always for the good. Usually it's something that's just "cool" to do, and not actually something viable.

Those paragraphs are something you shouldn't reply to. Only something that could make you think about something 🙂

Edited by UP100

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Posted (edited)

I have never presented myself as a programmer, maybe I am one, or maybe not. 🙂
By cons this is not your case it is obvious. You are currently unable to prove me wrong or right, the only argument you put forward is that of authority in a condescending tone and it absolutely does not work with me.
Indeed, some games do not use 100% proprietary tools, since to work on the desired platform, you need a few elements on the operating system on which you want to sell your game, a detail that has obviously escaped. 🙂
Reinventing the wheel may be useful if the benefits are greater than the previous version, imagine that the first wheel was made of wood! Do you still ride in a carriage? 🙂
Ignore the problems do not solve them, and I do not have the impression that the people who browse this forum are of the same opinion as you.
This is what you made me think of. 🙂

PS : A little email has been sent to "custservice@codemasters.com" because I'm curious to see what codemaster thinks of the way you respond to people. 🙂

Edited by F1CSColonelCoyo

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8 hours ago, F1CSColonelCoyo said:

You are currently unable to prove me wrong or right, the only argument you put forward is that of authority in a condescending tone and it absolutely does not work with me.

It's actually more about the fact that rarely people understand how tough game development is, and why these decisions are made. Take a look at something like r/gamedev which has become the place to try and make your ambitious first game with no chance of ever getting even 10% through. Welcome to the wall of text.

Let's start with this, play with it for a second: yourgameideaistoobig.com It's basically off about what we should be talking about, but it's a fun page. Also check the "but...!" link at the bottom of the page!

I think I want to point out that on Windows, the first ever code you're going to write if you start from C++ level with no dependencies, is WinAPI code. If you don't use it, you're most likely stuck with commandline interfaces (which also run on WinAPI). This is not some little addition that you add to your game to sell it or anything. Here is the code required just to create a window (doesn't include windowproc and the loop may be a bit broken, no one should ever use this code 😛)

int WINAPI wWinMain(HINSTANCE hInstance, HINSTANCE unused, PWSTR pCmdLine, int nCmdShow) {

	std::wstring CLASSNAME = L"TestClass";

	WNDCLASS wc = { };
	wc.lpfnWndProc		= WindowProc;
	wc.hInstance		= hInstance;
	wc.lpszClassName	= CLASSNAME.c_str();

	RegisterClass(&wc);


	// Create window
	HWND hwnd = CreateWindowExW(
		0,
		CLASSNAME.c_str(),
		L"TestWindow",
		WS_OVERLAPPEDWINDOW,
		CW_USEDEFAULT, CW_USEDEFAULT, CW_USEDEFAULT, CW_USEDEFAULT,
		NULL,
		NULL,
		hInstance,
		NULL
	);

	if (hwnd == NULL) {
		// Fail
		return 0;
	}

	ShowWindow(hwnd, nCmdShow);

	// Game loop
	MSG msg = {};
	while (msg.message != WM_QUIT) {
		while (PeekMessageW(&msg, 0, 0, 0, PM_REMOVE)) {
			TranslateMessage(&msg);
			DispatchMessageW(&msg);
		}

		// Game Update

	}


	return 0;
}

Not to mention all the input, audio and D3D stuff you probably get yourself into if you want to make a game. Also this code will fail to run on anything else than Windows without additional software like Wine. That's why people use dependencies like SDL or GLFW to hide all of that code.

Steamworks is the equivalent of Xbox Live API and Sony's Unknown API (I have no clue about the name). These exists as the service (Steam in this case) wants to make it as easy for developers to use otherwise complicated code in their games with the benefit of not being required to staff and pay for the upkeeping of that project. You did something I never realized someone would do when I'd link them to a quite complicated documentation, which is why I wanted to give up 😁

Here are some of the reasons why a developer of a game would want to use the API of the service (in this case Steamworks)

Free Matchmaking
This is what basically everyone of the Big 3 supports. Why would you create your own matchmaking servers that you'd have to create an account for just to make more inefficient version of this? Not to mention you still have to keep supporting it, causing the loss of time and money which could be used to improve the networking of the game.

Support for client features such as joining a game through Steam
Once again there should be no reason why this wouldn't be used. Almost every player out there has used the "Join friend's game" button at least once.

Valve dedicated server hosting
Having problems hosting dedicated servers for all of the regions of the world? Apparently Valve is now willing to use their data centers to host some servers for you. With the requirement of SDR, which is something I couldn't really explain properly.

Here I go with a list that'd just make me get to something I actually enjoy I bit quicker

  • Apparently offline notifications!? I didn't know that was a thing, like with the SDR stuff
  • Literally everything about billing, makes it easier for all of us.
  • Steam server browser
  • P2P networking through steam, which is especially useful for indie developers
  • Statistics and Achievements, no need for a custom implementation that'll just take your time and give you complaints about the achievements not working with Steam
  • Steam Cloud, made it possible for me to switch from F1 2017 on Windows to F1 2017 on Linux with no issues! (Thanks Feral and Steamworks!)
  • "Easy" implementation of web pages to your game
  • Steam Input -> Player will setup their custom controller through Steam -> no need for you to worry about it! You just use the values you get. A bit more player friendly than other input methods.
  • Steam Inventories/Trading/etc, would take ages to create yourself! ...and it wouldn't even be worth it!
  • Steam Keys, Beta testing, retail copies etc.
  • The new soundtrack possibility that was introduced by Valve some months back. Allows you to purchase a soundtrack of a game you don't own
  • Workshop, which is used in thousands of Steam games, and it's probably one of the features that players can appreciate the most. For example Space Engineers on Xbox has to use mod.io which just doesn't feel as good as Steam Workshop.
  • Sign-in through steam, that's what I do when I accidentally log off the forums! 😁
  • SteamVR, people like it.

Developers want to use many of these features as it'll save them for a lot of headaches. If you'd want to implement all of these features and more yourself, it'd probably be some couple of years of work to get it to work decently... and then you realize you have to SUPPORT it. Which means now you have like 10 good programmers competing against Valve's 12 good programmers, and only one of you actually earn something from this, as Valve benefits from supporting their features because it'll make developers more happy with Steam and drive up sales etc. etc.

This is such a big wall of text that fails to address basically anything, so feel free to ask whatever you may have in mind (as long as you don't make it overly long like I did!) 🙂 Also I don't know what you're talking about with your custservice@codemasters.com email, but I doubt it'll even reach Barry as the support is most likely in Southam, and they have no clue about what moderators Birmingham has recruited.

 

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I get it, steam is nice and all but where dat dedicated servers tho? 
If codies want to step up their (online) game, this is the very first step they should take and I fully agree with OP.

I'm not a (good) programmer myself, but seeing as so many other racing games have good and working online components, this is just embarrassing. 

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On 3/21/2020 at 11:31 AM, Bicarda said:

Steam has frequent outages. 
all too often league races get interrupted because steam dies. sometimes even for a short while. but after 24 laps in a league race that is the most enoying thing. 
Especially with games like this where you usually race about once a week with a league and dates are set months in advance, It's just very sloppy and a sign of not taking your own game seriously enough to just be dependant on steam. Steam doesn't care about our little league races. Codemasters should. Because it is what's keeping the online community turning right now. Cross-platform is long overdue anyway. 

"codies" make their sub-par product even more sub-par by making its functioning dependant on a not very reliable service like steam. So when steam dies 20 drivers, commentators, stewards and viewers alike are within a split second staring at their reflections with a "lost connection to steam" error on their screen.  (some people might have had the pleasure of driving around a bit longer seeing everybody disconnect and doing a few more turns with that sinking feeling knowing the fun is over)

Of course it's not a disaster if it goes down every now and then as long as it gets announced in advance. (or in the middle of the night...)  

And @UP100 Does zealously defending trash come with the moderator function? 
I just don't understand how you can defend the ABYSMAL state the multiplayer is in. it is NOT okay. it needs fixing YESTERDAY and if they don't there really is no more hope for this game. 
They don't need to reinvent the wheel they need to massively improve on the wheels already invented and become the pinnacle of e-sports like f1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. 
Their lack of ambition with one of the biggest licenses in the gaming world is staggering. 

@BarryBL if i may be allowed to ask 1 question today. You usually don't answer my questions but this is one that concerns a lot of us: 

-Does Codemasters indeed feel that the place that online multiplayer (in f1 2019) is in right now is all fine and dandy? 

Just a simple 'yes' or 'no' will suffice, as to not steal any more of your time. I think there's still some 9 month old bugs that everybody has seen a million times already that you can ask people for a video about..

Hi @Bicarda,

Just to clarify this one quickly. We both know that, in fact, we've had PM conversations and I always try to answer what questions and involve myself in discussion when I feel I can, much like this one. So, I personally don't understand why you've chosen the "You usually don't answer my questions" as a way to interact with me when this isn't accurate. 

@UP100 is a moderator here but, much like @1512marcel, is encouraged to also be critical and share their opinions of the game. That has been the stance since the F1 forums have had moderators. This has not changed. If you look at other threads and conversations, this has never been an issue and I will always want the moderators to be themselves too.

To answer your question, we are always looking into improving experiences for the player moving forward, including the online multiplayer. If you can give us feedback (methods of reproduction, how often this happens to you) I can take this to the developers for discussion. I would need the regular format, as this is the best way to report a technical issue.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

Hi @Bicarda,

Just to clarify this one quickly. We both know that, in fact, we've had PM conversations and I always try to answer what questions and involve myself in discussion when I feel I can, much like this one. So, I personally don't understand why you've chosen the "You usually don't answer my questions" as a way to interact with me when this isn't accurate. 

@UP100 is a moderator here but, much like @1512marcel, is encouraged to also be critical and share their opinions of the game. That has been the stance since the F1 forums have had moderators. This has not changed. If you look at other threads and conversations, this has never been an issue and I will always want the moderators to be themselves too.

To answer your question, we are always looking into improving experiences for the player moving forward, including the online multiplayer. If you can give us feedback (methods of reproduction, how often this happens to you) I can take this to the developers for discussion. I would need the regular format, as this is the best way to report a technical issue.

The abysmal state the game is in it is just undoable to make a video and report for every single bug in the game.
EVERY RACE you will discover a new bug, and this forum is not big enough for all of them. 

What Codemasters needs to do, is test their own game, and stop using us as betatesters that pay 60 euro's to test your broken game. 

IT is not our job to help you fix your game and make it semi-decent.
YOU guys need to make sure it's decent before you ******* put it on sale for  60 euro's 

Honestly. I will make a video today containing as many bugs as possible. cause i have all the coronatime in the world, but the disdain that Codemasters shows us by not fixing anything even though the faults are SO SO obvious..
GET PEOPLE IN-HOUSE TO RACE EACHOTHER ON A REGULAR BASIS AND FIX ALL THE ISSUS YOU ENCOUNTER HOW HARD CAN IT BE? 


And no you usually don't answer to questions regarding Codemasters view on bugs and if we may have any hopes of improvement in the future. 
And this time i also count it as no answer. becuse you didn't answer the question. Just gave me some PR ******** again. 
REPLY and ANSWER are not the same thing... 

If you were really looking to improve the experience you would have done so by now. 
The conversation From Lando and Max yesterday was how almost everyone that plays your game feels about this and i really hope you guys are as ashamed as you should be. 
But my guess is, sadly, that you guys will remain in denial as you've always been. 

Edited by Bicarda

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Posted (edited)

@BarryBL

So i went through the effort of making a video for you. 
This is just a tip of the iceberg kinda thing, most of them just issues from the last few weeks because twitch doesn't save the clips for longer for most people. 
On the other hand, this means that most of these issues occurred within a small window of time. And shows how often things like this occur. 

I also hope it makes you appreciate the scale of this problem 
And how weird your claim that we should go out of our way to fix YOUR product. 

These are not bugs that occur very rarely and need some pointing out or even a calculator to notice. 
This is just the reality of playing your game that you have claimed e-sports ready time and time again. You're still nowhere near delivering on that promise
and i feel that until you do, selling this game based on lies was and is nothing short of thievery. 

We got promised the world (2 years development, official graphics, a working league mode, fixed bugs) 
Instead we got a 90% recycled game with some new filter, a worse driving model, MORE bugs, and a league mode that everybody is (rightfully) afraid to use. 

But please. Watch the video and tell me again why Codemasters as a company doesn't feel the need to address these issues and fix them themselves. Instead waiting for us to point each and every one of them out individually. 
 

 

Edited by Bicarda
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Does anyone remember "the list" I bring back every now and then? 😁

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1 minute ago, UP100 said:

Does anyone remember "the list" I bring back every now and then? 😁

It's here. 
It's a good list. 
With which Barry and Codemasters decided not to do anything after all. 
 

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1 minute ago, Bicarda said:

It's here. 
It's a good list. 
With which Barry and Codemasters decided not to do anything after all. 
 

Well you don't seem to remember the all and mighty list at least 😛 

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2 minutes ago, UP100 said:

Well you don't seem to remember the all and mighty list at least 😛 

Tell us about the all and mighty list

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22 minutes ago, Bicarda said:

Tell us about the all and mighty list

👁️ It shall be only revealed to the chosen ones... 👁️
...who'll then react with 'disagree' 😁

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@BarryBL

I want to feedback in as constructive and helpful way possible about the current state of the game and things I think are necessities rather than quality of life updates.

Business Critical Issues

- Game stability: This is by far the most important one as demonstrated yesterday in F1 virtual race. The game fails far too often and has so many issues with keeping itself going that we've had to create our own "workarounds" to sustain a degree of stability.

- Lobby glitches: This one is much harder to repeat although I can probably force the issue again if I had my community repeatedly leave my session. We've named this one the host lobby glitch and it is caused by people leaving the session. At certain points the FPS seems to just drop severely and becomes unplayable. The only way we've found to make it stop is to leave session, rejoin and then retake control of my car. (Thank you for this feature btw, without this, the whole situation would be so much more painful)

- Lobby glitches pt2: Just following on from the previous one really but as demonstrated in @Bicarda's video there seems to be a major issue with starts. This varies between lights going out for some before others and in other occassions it can be the whole grid being stuck because some people are able to start whilst the rest are also waiting for the lights to even appear. This seems as though there's some sort of validation that the game has built into it where it's waiting for a "ready" message to be sent from the client to everyone else in the server but they're not receiving it despite the client sending it. If that makes sense.

These are what I feel are business critical issues to Codemasters. These are the things that will affect future sales of the game and in turn may affect the bidding of the F1 licensing contract later on. 

I could start with Quality of life fixes but honestly I feel the above are far too important to ignore.

I wish I could get involved somehow in the fixing of the above issues.

One question I am very keen to get the answer on is regarding the UAT of these updates. 

To me it looks like Codemasters are working in the agile project format which I think is great with a product that is being used by the consumers such as this one. My issue though is that it seems the UAT on these updates doesn't seem to be thorough enough. 

Finally, I want to thank everyone at Codemasters for giving us a game that brings us closer to the sport and I hope this is taken constructively with the hope of one day getting a product that feels and plays as good as we want/need it to be. 

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On 3/23/2020 at 2:09 PM, UP100 said:

👁️ It shall be only revealed to the chosen ones... 👁️
...who'll then react with 'disagree' 😁

When it comes to the list, the genuine desire of the community to improve the game, and codemasters (allegedly) new transparent attitude, words fail me.

I appreciate that BarryBL is doing his best, however it seems his hands are tied and the sentiment behind his role is the appeasement of forum members at best. It would appear that, in truth, there is very little genuine desire within the company to address the issues with the game raised by the community.

Comments like the above, said in jest no doubt, only serve to highlight the truth and push customers away.

 

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29 minutes ago, ChasteWand said:

When it comes to the list, the genuine desire of the community to improve the game, and codemasters (allegedly) new transparent attitude, words fail me.

I appreciate that BarryBL is doing his best, however it seems his hands are tied and the sentiment behind his role is the appeasement of forum members at best. It would appear that, in truth, there is very little genuine desire within the company to address the issues with the game raised by the community.

Comments like the above, said in jest no doubt, only serve to highlight the truth and push customers away.

 

You don't seem to remember "the list" either 😛

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