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So, How much of a Simulator is DR2.0...? Interesting old interview

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Flykas said:

So... no body actually knows what Dirt Rally actually simulates compared to RBR or other sims? For me Dirt feels like the movement of the car is faked and not a result of many calculations it doesn't actually feel rolling on wheels. While they did a really great job of making this into a quite realistic game the feeling is very different when compared to sims where you can feel the car and be way more precise and understand the physics. Some things in Dirt just happens and it is hard to understand why. While RBR feels more like other simulators, where you have more precise control. 

I dont think anyone except codemasters themselves knows what simulated in the game, as far as i know they havent officially said anything about that. 😞

Edited by somethingthing

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Myrvold said:

It's not that he is critical though, it is how it is presented.
And quite a lot other reasons.

Speed isn't everything.

It's both I guess. But when I get attacked, called a conspiracist, insulted, and banned from the AC forums for having the gall to say that Forza looks better and AC felt to have a smidge of understeer and little body roll, it's more that he's critical of it. Sim fans are nuts and their communities are toxic, which is why I only stick on the Dirt forums. Everyone here is generally pretty fun and we all give negative feedback.

A further point to it not being how it's presented, but just that it is presented is there was an actual Mercedes/Porsche test driver with extensive knowledge of the vehicles present in AC. He very politely chipped in and said the values aren't very realistic and they don't handle correctly. Lord Kunos (That's actually his name) himself descended and called the man an idiot, said he didn't know what he was talking about, probably told him to read a book, and I think banned him because he said AC wasn't that accurate.

They also shut down the modding section of their forum, which immediately killed a bunch of mods because "People were using it to inflate their ego." I assume they mean Fonsecker saying the game sounds terrible and making new+better audio packs from YT videos because Kunos don't know what they're doing.

There's a lot more examples from a lot more games, but I'll leave it there.

15 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

Oh man, this Austin character really is the Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons of racing.

He may seem to have a point regarding hidden assists in DR2.0, but it's overlooking that CM are aiming for a 'playable simulator'. And there's no criticism of the underlying physics. 

His adherence to RBR also seems to ignore that it feels somewhat primitive now compared to DR2.0

Why does he have to talk about the physics? I think he also did one on Need for Speed, which obviously isn't a sim. He also doesn't have an adherence to RBR, but whatever. He also compares it to SLRE, but because he said RBR+mods his point is invalidated.

Ironically everything he mentions in the video is what all of us early testers said behind closed doors when we got access to the final build, because it was WAY different from the early build we had access to that we all liked. Then the game came out and literally everyone started trying to figure out what went wrong, including Dgeesio. Pretty much everyone else at this point has gotten bored with the game and haven't been very active on the forum.

 

4 hours ago, BayouRally said:

So, bottom line is, the physics model is pretty simple and has inherent weaknesses.  HOWEVER, it has been carefully optimized for a specific set of circumstances (car right-side up and moving along the road), so it does a pretty good job there.  It's close enough to expectations based on reality to be quite believable and fun.  But its flaws show when you get the car outside those circumstances.  Still, on the balance, it's a good system IMHO.

I remember playing NFS3:HP and there were a few major jumps. Your car would start to rotate based on where the engine was, which at the time I thought was pretty freaking cool. A Porsche would end up nose up, while a front engine would point down, and mid engines staying flatter. Forza also has a decent weight balance system that moves the active COG depending on where the weight is. It also shows the weight on each wheel.

 

1 hour ago, Flykas said:

So... no body actually knows what Dirt Rally actually simulates compared to RBR or other sims? For me Dirt feels like the movement of the car is faked and not a result of many calculations it doesn't actually feel rolling on wheels. While they did a really great job of making this into a quite realistic game the feeling is very different when compared to sims where you can feel the car and be way more precise and understand the physics. Some things in Dirt just happens and it is hard to understand why. While RBR feels more like other simulators, where you have more precise control. 

It's hard to really know what any of them actually simulate. As far as I'm aware every game uses the same tire model since at least 2003. Some games just use different variable inputs. Which is why most games feel pretty much identical. Also again AFAIK, every sim uses the system described by BayouRally. 4 tire contact points, 1 COG point that carries a LUT for aerodynamics. The only one I know that isn't like that is BeamNG.

It's also important to note that computers are quick, but only do one calculation at a time, so it literally can't calculate all 4 tires all the time. I could also be wrong, but I think tires are also based off just a few points of contact, if not just 1. I'm thinking Forza has 3 zones per tire, LFS has tire flex, so maybe? And BeamNG simulates every "physical" point on the tires.

Edited by JZStudios

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Posted (edited)

So I managed to find a really good video describing how sim game tire models work, and why it's so limited along with why every game uses it.

People seem to think the tire models in games works like this;

 

 

Whereas in reality it works like this:

That thumbnail actually says it all. That curve surface is the tire slip angle, which literally every game uses. They just slightly change a few variables.

 

*Edit, there's also this, showing how much of a "sim" The Crew 2 is, which actually simulates just about as much as other racing sims... just not with the same values.

 

Edited by JZStudios
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Posted (edited)
On 4/4/2020 at 4:45 AM, JZStudios said:

Ironically everything he mentions in the video is what all of us early testers said behind closed doors when we got access to the final build, because it was WAY different from the early build we had access to that we all liked. Then the game came out and literally everyone started trying to figure out what went wrong, including Dgeesio. Pretty much everyone else at this point has gotten bored with the game and haven't been very active on the forum.

Sorry JZ, but I do not believe quietness on a forum is any evidence whatsoever of a handling or physics model that is lacking in some way. It could be because we are near the end of the game's cycle, and the end of new content for it. So people know there are no more changes they can suggest. It could be because they are busy playing the game but are bored talking over the same discussions they've already had. For example, the only 'life' still had with RBR in forums rests purely on the modding scene, which DR2.0 does not support.

But I am genuinely enjoying your other comments and the discussion here, I hope it continues.

As for our friend Austin, I do believe he's a troll. He cites SLRE as being 'not sterile' compared to DR2.0. Have you played that game recently? Not a bad game, but bouncing balloon physics, and overall a slow, sluggish and unresponsive handling and physics model. There is nothing in that game that DR2.0 doesn't do much better. DR2.0 is just so far ahead in both looks and handling it's like it's from a completely different era.

But I've worked out who Austin Ognogolski is! It's not the Comic Book Guy, it's this dude!

 
 
Edited by Jake Cushing

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jake Cushing said:

He cites SLRE as being 'not sterile' compared to DR2.0. Have you played that game recently? Not a bad game, but bouncing balloon physics, and overall a slow, sluggish and unresponsive handling and physics model. There is nothing in that game that DR2.0 doesn't do much better. DR2.0 is just so far ahead in both looks and handling it's like it's from a completely different era. 

Well, I'd argue that tarmac in SLRE is miles ahead of DR2. Take a modern WRC car out on a track in San Remo in SLRE and you're going to have a blast. Transistions between tarmac and gravel in Australia or Finland are also much more realistic and satisfying, you really have to mind your angle and throttle because of grip difference.

Also also, the way the tracks were recreated when compared to real life is quite impressive. They were much more diverse as well.

 

Yes, collisions and audio-visual quality were **** for the most part in SLRE, but I always defend this game as it's really underrated IMO.

 

Edited by danielofifi
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5 hours ago, danielofifi said:

Well, I'd argue that tarmac in SLRE is miles ahead of DR2. Take a modern WRC car out on a track in San Remo in SLRE and you're going to have a blast. Transistions between tarmac and gravel in Australia or Finland are also much more realistic and satisfying, you really have to mind your angle and throttle because of grip difference.

Also also, the way the tracks were recreated when compared to real life is quite impressive. They were much more diverse as well.

 

Yes, collisions and audio-visual quality were **** for the most part in SLRE, but I always defend this game as it's really underrated IMO.

 

There's lots of issues in SLRE, but nobody can say any Dirt game has better tarmac. 

What they have managed to do with the old Ego engine to make things feel and behave authentic is pretty darn impressive but there are bad traits that just carries over from game to game that they can't seem to get rid of. It's time for a complete overhaul imo. New engine, new tech. With new consoles coming up this next step is surely taking place. 

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On 4/5/2020 at 5:09 AM, Jake Cushing said:

Sorry JZ, but I do not believe quietness on a forum is any evidence whatsoever of a handling or physics model that is lacking in some way. It could be because we are near the end of the game's cycle, and the end of new content for it. So people know there are no more changes they can suggest. It could be because they are busy playing the game but are bored talking over the same discussions they've already had. For example, the only 'life' still had with RBR in forums rests purely on the modding scene, which DR2.0 does not support.

As for our friend Austin, I do believe he's a troll. He cites SLRE as being 'not sterile' compared to DR2.0. Have you played that game recently? Not a bad game, but bouncing balloon physics, and overall a slow, sluggish and unresponsive handling and physics model. There is nothing in that game that DR2.0 doesn't do much better. DR2.0 is just so far ahead in both looks and handling it's like it's from a completely different era.

But I've worked out who Austin Ognogolski is! It's not the Comic Book Guy, it's this dude!

 
 

It wasn't quiet. They were all active to begin with. I don't understand where that was lost. And even in the slow periods between games before the other guys were still relatively active. No one was particularly pleased with the changes that were made, especially the tarmac physics, and in our private forum section there was a lot of discussion. Also within that private section (and a little in the gossip thread) a few of them said they just weren't super enamored by it and got bored and stopped playing it. They haven't come back because no physics updates have happened.

You're also entirely missing his point, but whatever. I'm not going to argue further. DR2 is not that great on or off road in terms of realism. As a bonus fun fact, he's been successfully doing actual racing for a number of years now, while also consistently getting record lap times in "sim" games, but yeah, he's a troll and doesn't know anything and just ***** on games.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/5/2020 at 5:15 AM, Flykas said:

Well this is an interesting read regarding tyre model in new games https://www.racedepartment.com/threads/assetto-corsa-competizione-the-5-point-tyre-model-blog.171148/

"Unfortunately, while still acceptable in AC, the more advanced physics engine of ACC put in evidence the limitations of the above solution. Our tyre model started to have issues and downright buggy behaviour under certain conditions over curbs."

Noo... you mean to tell me that after 10 revisions and "Lord Kunos" himself calling anyone who mentioned those limitations and inaccuracies an idiot that should read a book they finally understand they were using really basic **** the rest of the market had moved past?

And now they claim they made entirely new code and tire model. Yeah, I'm pressing X to doubt. This new system seems pretty much the same as what (Granted, I assume) Forza has had for years. It has 3 heating zones on the tire, outer, middle, and inside, so logic would dictate it also has 3 contact points being influenced by those zone temperatures.

 

I also like this tidbit, which I'm sure they argued against as being realistic;

"As an example, many people see in real life the left inner curb of Eau Rouge being dirty from tyres and think real drivers abuse the curb. They try to do so in ACC and get an instant spin."

23 hours ago, bogani said:

There's lots of issues in SLRE, but nobody can say any Dirt game has better tarmac. 

What they have managed to do with the old Ego engine to make things feel and behave authentic is pretty darn impressive but there are bad traits that just carries over from game to game that they can't seem to get rid of. It's time for a complete overhaul imo. New engine, new tech. With new consoles coming up this next step is surely taking place. 

Is it though? They've had Ego since the 360 and didn't make a new one for the current gen.

Edited by JZStudios

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2 hours ago, JZStudios said:

"Unfortunately, while still acceptable in AC, the more advanced physics engine of ACC put in evidence the limitations of the above solution. Our tyre model started to have issues and downright buggy behaviour under certain conditions over curbs."

Noo... you mean to tell me that after 10 revisions and "Lord Kunos" himself calling anyone who mentioned those limitations and inaccuracies an idiot that should read a book they finally understand they were using really basic **** the rest of the market had moved past?

And now they claim they made entirely new code and tire model. Yeah, I'm pressing X to doubt. This new system seems pretty much the same as what (Granted, I assume) Forza has had for years. It has 3 heating zones on the tire, outer, middle, and inside, so logic would dictate it also has 3 contact points being influenced by those zone temperatures.

 

I also like this tidbit, which I'm sure they argued against as being realistic;

"As an example, many people see in real life the left inner curb of Eau Rouge being dirty from tyres and think real drivers abuse the curb. They try to do so in ACC and get an instant spin."

Is it though? They've had Ego since the 360 and didn't make a new one for the current gen.

Well, it needs to happen sooner or later, don't you think? 

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19 hours ago, bogani said:

Well, it needs to happen sooner or later, don't you think? 

Well, sure, but it also should've happened 3 games ago and didn't. Even after acquiring Evo Studios who I believe made their own engine for Onrush.

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