Simulation Light vs Full Sim

[doublethink 0]

Been really enjoying the game these past few weeks.  I have one suggestion.

There is a reason real life cars don't have thumbsticks.  The only way to satisfy the simulation people is to have a mode where you can take the physics and input systems and vehicle grip/weight transfer to its extremes.  At some point it will sacrifice the ability to play the game with a 360/xbone controller.  It has to, or you aren't taking it far enough to satisfy those people.

Currently the game feels great on a controller even with all the assists off.  This doesn't surpirse me since CM has always been good at this.  But deep down I know this is only possible because the physics aren't really accurate.  Still, plenty of players either can't afford, or simply won't ever have wheel setups.  So you have to cater to both.

Leaderboards can't have someone working their tail off in cockpit view with full sim settings on a wheel and pedal setup being compared to someone rocking a controller.  And theres no way the controller can hang with a wheel if the game is close enough to simulation to satisfy the people who want that.

Theres going to have to be a split.  I hope this is being discussed behind closed doors and you guys have a plan, because the people who want RBR v2 are very vocal, and they have a right to be that way.  But for the game to make money, and to get more people into Rally, it needs to have a pick up and play quality too.

Its a difficult position to be in, but if you divide the in game settings and make the UI be clear about the mode players are in, you can make a game that gives both these playebases what they want.  Its only a matter of coding it to do this.  Which you guys have always been excellent at.

My .02

[SamRWD 2]

doublethink said:

Been really enjoying the game these past few weeks.  I have one suggestion.

There is a reason real life cars don't have thumbsticks.  The only way to satisfy the simulation people is to have a mode where you can take the physics and input systems and vehicle grip/weight transfer to its extremes.  At some point it will sacrifice the ability to play the game with a 360/xbone controller.  It has to, or you aren't taking it far enough to satisfy those people.

Currently the game feels great on a controller even with all the assists off.  This doesn't surpirse me since CM has always been good at this.  But deep down I know this is only possible because the physics aren't really accurate.  Still, plenty of players either can't afford, or simply won't ever have wheel setups.  So you have to cater to both.

Leaderboards can't have someone working their tail off in cockpit view with full sim settings on a wheel and pedal setup being compared to someone rocking a controller.  And theres no way the controller can hang with a wheel if the game is close enough to simulation to satisfy the people who want that.

Theres going to have to be a split.  I hope this is being discussed behind closed doors and you guys have a plan, because the people who want RBR v2 are very vocal, and they have a right to be that way.  But for the game to make money, and to get more people into Rally, it needs to have a pick up and play quality too.

Its a difficult position to be in, but if you divide the in game settings and make the UI be clear about the mode players are in, you can make a game that gives both these playebases what they want.  Its only a matter of coding it to do this.  Which you guys have always been excellent at.

My .02

+1

[MJT 8]

Ah, the old "it's not a sim because controller users can compete."

Really, this needs to be raised for every sim that's ever been made?
Really?

It's probably the same user that posts it in sim after sim.

Name me 1 sim where controller users can't compete.
You can't.
The deficiency is not in the code, but in your lack of understanding of what an analog joystick is (regardless of the shape it comes in).

[doublethink 0]

MJT said:

Ah, the old "it's not a sim because controller users can compete."

Really, this needs to be raised for every sim that's ever been made?
Really?

It's probably the same user that posts it in sim after sim.

Name me 1 sim where controller users can't compete.
You can't.
The deficiency is not in the code, but in your lack of understanding of what an analog joystick is (regardless of the shape it comes in).

It's translated input, from the horizontal axis of the stick itself, to that of an angular value on the steering column of the vehicle.

There is no misunderstanding on my part.

And, yep, you got me.  I am part of a secret society that makes random forum posts about this exact topic,  We have a handshake and an underground lair with laser sharks guarding it.  You're not invited.

[Myrvold 85]

What should be possible to do, in online racing, is to force people to use H-shift, or manual gearing, or H+Clutch etc.

[RodgerDavies 990]

MJT said:

Name me 1 sim where controller users can't compete.
You can't.
The deficiency is not in the code, but in your lack of understanding of what an analog joystick is (regardless of the shape it comes in).

PCARS. Although I suspect that's not a great example of a sim, and it's mainly due to not working very well with pads.

However, AC, R3E, iR, rFactor and GTR2 all work fine with them, so they must not be proper sims.

[Evilsmurf 91]

It's generally accepted that Accetto Corsa is a sim and some of the fastest people use a xbox 360 pad.

to say that you can't play a sim on a pad is just narrow minded, elitist and stupid.

Just saying.

and before you say "oh look...another poor pad owner" I use a G27 attached to an Obutto Ozone and I'm more than happy to play along side and compeate with pad users. Each to their own.

[Rallycameraman 241]

What is it with some PC players that make them think they're better than everyone? If someone is quicker than me with a pad then well done, it must take some effort!

i just love using my wheel and pedals, it's great fun!

[NoOneNBA 0]

Rallycameraman said:

What is it with some PC players that make them think they're better than everyone? If someone is quicker than me with a pad then well done, it must take some effort!

That's always been my take on it as well.

All I care about is clean racing.
I don't care what you're using to achieve that.

I knew one guy who played MCLA for quite awhile using his blu-ray remote, and was setting Top-10 times with it.
His Dual-Shock broke, and he couldn't afford to buy a new one, so he used what he had.

[dirt3joe 0]

Provided a pad has the same input range available as a wheel and the same resolution there is no reason someone can't theroretically go as fast with a pad as with a wheel. The problem is whether the controller user can physically set the level of accuracy over the limited range that the control stick offers to achieve the best times. 

Its a bit like someone having a wheel which achieves full resolution over a -10 degress to +10degrees lock and someone who has one that goes -20 degrees to +20 degrees full lock. Theoretically the guy with the 20 degrees can achieve a higher level of accuracy.

[SkiddyMcCrash 312]

It depends on more than the accuracy of the pads thumbstick. I'm using the same pad that I've been using since DiRT2 on my 360.

I've never used the pad on shooter game (the mic doesn't work on it), it's only ever been used for racing. The left stick is loose and wobbly, sometimes the stick 'ghost walks' to the left when I'm not touching it. I've got 2 new pads as well, that I don't use. One is a bit twitchy, but the other has a perfect steering response.

The problem with both of them is that the right trigger is not as sensitive as the one on the really old, battered one.

The sloppier right triggers slow me down by around 3-5 seconds on the longer tracks, despite the better steering. It's the same with any racing game I try it it on, the old pad is always faster.

[doublethink 0]

I was really just trying to have a conversation about the game catering to both types of players. I didnt intend to make anyone flip out. I use a pad myself, as do many people.

[Evilsmurf 91]

Conversation is good :), but I still don't think it's necessary to segregate the community based on your choice of control input.

Besides @SkiddyMcCrash (who currently holds a good few fastest times over me), I also have other friends who regularly beat me with a pad. 

[SkiddyMcCrash 312]

No worries @doublethink no ones flipping out, I was just saying that throttle response is just as important as precise steering.

It doesn't really matter whether you use a wheel or a pad. I've got both (my wheels only a M$360 one, but it does the job), and I've been using both since for as far back as I can remember. I use a pad at the moment because my wheel isn't set up, and there's no point setting it up until the FFB patch is up and running really. The wheel is way more fun, but my pad is faster.

Evilsmurf said:
Besides @SkiddyMcCrash (who currently holds a good few fastest times over me), I also have other friends who regularly beat me with a pad. 

I enjoy seeing the Friends Results more than Stage Results. Even when I come first in the career, it's the FR scores that make me nervous. Did I win?... did I win?... did I...     balls.

You can add me on steam if you want, the more the merrier.

[Skunkmeister 0]

I agree make it as sim as possible but you can filter input from pads to make them fun to use too. Who cares if they can't compete on the leaderboards or if they can. Just make a good sim that lots of people can enjoy.

Why are there so many people that love to think that if you don't have a great PC racing setup you don't know anything and don't like sim? I use wheel and pedals but I don't think that makes me better than people who don't.

[gfRally 480]

I think people get confused between a simulation (software/game) and a simulator (hardware).  Might not be the exact technical terms to differentiate the two.  

Personally I can't put myself into a driving game without using a wheel, I feel detached like I am controling a RC car using a pad.  That doesn't make me better player, if you've seen my scores, you may think I need to toss my wheel and get a pad since it couldn't make me worse.  :wink: 

[Skunkmeister 0]

gfRally said:

I think people get confused between a simulation (software/game) and a simulator (hardware).  Might not be the exact technical terms to differentiate the two.  

Personally I can't put myself into a driving game without using a wheel, I feel detached like I am controling a RC car using a pad.  That doesn't make me better player, if you've seen my scores, you may think I need to toss my wheel and get a pad since it couldn't make me worse.  :wink: 

Well put, the pad is clearly not a simulator but that doesn't reflect the software at all. Maybe if the pads implicitly have more assists they could be easier to use than the wheel, who knows.

[RWB Charger 1]

I think it balances out, the thumb can move left to right a lot quicker than arms and a wheel can but the wheel gives the immersion and more of a sim feel, I know some really fast pad drivers in a few games.

I personally started out on a pad many years ago but since I got my wheel I just can't use a pad any more, I am slow with a wheel but just love the feel of it, I am not all about fast laps per se, I like bumper to bumper racing where I can compete.

I do the rally for my own enjoyment and it makes me a better driver in real life, even the other half has said so, my reaction times have speeded up.

Plus it's damn fun, looking forward to the rallycross online where I can race my mates.

By the way the leadboards in Project Cars show what input device was used to set the times, maybe Codemasters could implement something like that, would make some interesting stats and put the argument to bed?

[Ferrettank 0]

What if they simple have the leader boards separated by difficulty. For example people that have the game set on easy (catered to the arcade racer), compete and play with other "easy" players. Same with Medium and Hard (catered to the fans that want to see another RBR). If the controller people want to compete in hard, let them. They may be at a disadvantage, but it would keep things simple.

[doublethink 0]

I just feel like the game is MUCH more difficult in first person, for a somewhat related example.  The floating behind the car view is fun to use but you have a much better idea of the coming corner, and you know the exact clearances you have to slide around a corner. The game recognizing that might encourage more people to try it. It doesn't need to be segregating. Like a filter option on the leaderboards. 

[RickyMcHawk 0]

As much as I would agree that sims should be played with wheel, I believe that playing with pads / keyboard is not limiting at all.

IMO, it's more about how the developers are able to provide the closest immersion as possible regardless the controller. The perfect world would be a wheel that, when you turn 1, 0.99, 0.98, 0.97 to the left, the game would understand 1, 0.99, 0.98, 0.97 to the left instantaneously. What I see from videos is that a wheel always has that ~50 ms input delay.

With pads you still have some sensitivity, although instead of moving 1, 0.99, 0.98, 0.97 to the left with both your arms, as you would with wheels, you do it using your thumb. Far less precise.

With keyboard its trickier. You got only 1 or -1. Its up to the game to determine how fast your in-game wheels will turn with input and without input. Take CMR:Dirt 1, for instance: It's jerky. It would go from 1 to -1 in 10 ms. Now Dirt Rally, it will take say 300 ms. This gives keyboard more precision.

And we are only talking about steering inputs...

Me? I never had wheels. I play with keyboard since Nascar 1, Papyrus, circa ~1994. And I've played A LOT of RBR. Of course, I would enjoy the game much more if I had wheels, but I still have lots of fun this way. And I don't feel handicaped anyway. I'm currently 7th overall on the monthly event (McH4wk, without any restarts - c'mon, you know you can restart just by quitting and entering the event again). I'll never beat Ji1 and I would never mean to.

The point is Dirt Rally closes the gap among controllers so well that I feel confortable about playing against drivers who have wheels.

Replying the first post: No. There shouldn't be a split. This kind of game should be as sim as possible. The ultimate, true, pure, most immersive game of rallying probably would make me get a wheel. Dirt Rally is the one that comes the closest after RBR, and I would probably get one if I had the bucks right now.