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Lando Norris and Max Verstappen ceremoniously uninstall Codemasters F1 2019

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7 hours ago, maumarti said:

I agree about Sony exclusive contract and how it has been BAD. But, just to be sure... did you used both EA F1, Sony F1 and Codemasters games? Because I used them, and in graphics, physics, environment IMHO CM is quite better than EA, and REALLY better than Sony. I think there’s a lot of room for enhancements, but there’s also a lot of good content. I think the game reproduces the F1 CONTEST better than others, and even if probably to improve the physics engine it should be re-written, this one should not be completely forgotten during his re-building. This is just to share the opinion from one of the F1 fans who does not criticize the product at all (as already said, nor sure about net code side, that I agree is a crucial point)

I have GP4 and EA Challenge and Ubisoft games  - I would agree with you in term of graphics without question, general environment as well, but physics not at all, given the setup adjustments both in terms of elements that CM covers (using unrealistic scales) and the lack of complete setup items (bumpers as an example) and of course telemetry! I never played any of the Sony games (showing just how bad the F1 decision was) but have many of the Codemasters versions - because I like F1 - but the games, while graphically good, fall way short of what it is like to be an F1 driver. Unfortunately, this is the only option given those who really like F1, by F1 management. 

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On 4/17/2020 at 10:46 AM, pachedupdemon said:

Condescending and sarcastic mods, oh how refreshing, this is a clear sign of someone not fit for purpose, and is only here to defend codemasters. 

GG

Beats members who downvote everything as opposed to responding..

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, thatsfine said:

Beats members who downvote everything as opposed to responding..



I've been trying to improve this series for the past 10 years.
 

Edited by codexas
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Posted (edited)

 



More on the way

Edited by codexas
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Posted (edited)
On 4/18/2020 at 9:54 PM, dwin20 said:

They were doing OK financially, and there were competing games - EA F1 and Ubisoft F1. The reason they shut down - like EA F1 was that F1 did a multi-year exclusive contrast with Sony that started with the 2003 season. Another example of an inept decision from F1 management. 

And proving exactly why they will never be Sim. F1 wants a mainstream market they don't want a niche market as that does not generate the revenue they want. Especially now in the current climate when Liberty media are taking a bath with the finances over this season. 

F1 drivers may complain but those handful of drivers aint the market audience for sales. Im not saying any side is right im just pointing out the reasons why it is what is. Incidentally it will be interesting to see what F1 management/legal team does with some of the drivers bashing an 'officially licensed product' I wonder if their F1 contracts have a clause about that?

It is also funny listening to the same drivers who bash the game saying its unrealistic, then in the actual esports race are running about half a mile wide on most corners abusing track limits. Just watch how those same drivers were taking the final corner on Sundays live race etc LOL

Edited by TomAAA
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Why should you choose between simcade and sim?

Is it that difficult to add a simulation mode? I mean, You have the tracks , you have the grapics etc. Is it that hard to make a real sim of the current game? 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, aartstyle said:

Is it that difficult to add a simulation mode? I mean, You have the tracks , you have the grapics etc. Is it that hard to make a real sim of the current game? 

I agree but it's not that easy as that. If you have ever managed a company you would understand expenditure vs reward. Does spending 'X' amount of money to please 'X' number of customers justify the profit that would be made by those same customers vs expenditure? Im sure the accountants/managers have already looked into this scenario im afraid. 

Edited by TomAAA

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, TomAAA said:

I agree but it's not that easy as that. If you have ever managed a company you would understand expenditure vs reward. Does spending 'X' amount of money to please 'X' number of customers justify the profit that would be made by those same customers vs expenditure? Im sure the accountants/managers have already looked into this scenario im afraid. 

The amount of effort required to make a separate sim physics model would probably not be financially worth it, considering the small amount of people who fall into "I'd buy this game only if it had a more realistic simulation" would barely show up in the sales charts of the Codemasters F1 games.

Not to mention that these "proper simracing games" often get the cars wrong too, despite their much more sophisticated physics simulation. With cars that are so heavily reliant on complex aero and tyres that not even the teams themselves fully understand, there'll always be a lot of extremely simplified guesswork involved. 

I obviously wouldn't say no to Codemasters doing these things, but other than repeated snide comments from simracing enthusiasts, there's not really much pressure to work on that.

I'd rather have them fix all the long-standing bugs and issues so I can play the game without getting angry, not invest tons of work into a new system that will just introduce thousands of new bugs.

Edited by RaceMyZaru
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On 4/19/2020 at 6:41 AM, dwin20 said:

I have GP4 and EA Challenge and Ubisoft games  - I would agree with you in term of graphics without question, general environment as well, but physics not at all, given the setup adjustments both in terms of elements that CM covers (using unrealistic scales) and the lack of complete setup items (bumpers as an example) and of course telemetry! I never played any of the Sony games (showing just how bad the F1 decision was) but have many of the Codemasters versions - because I like F1 - but the games, while graphically good, fall way short of what it is like to be an F1 driver. Unfortunately, this is the only option given those who really like F1, by F1 management. 

Oh yes! I didn’t mentioned GP4, and neither 3 and 2 because I consider Crammond’s work absolutely great. I can't imagine what we could have today if he continued to work... To be honest, I remember Ubisoft and EA titles giving the annoying sensation to have the cars “rotating” around a central point when steering (if I’m not wrong probably EA reduced this issue in last titles). I agree that about 20 years after last Crammond GP, in the official F1 game are still missing some setup parameters, and telemetry is available only with 3rd party tools (these were available even in GP2).

I love F1 too, and I love playing a game that makes me feel a little bit close to F1 experience.

From my feeling, after several “dark” years especially with Sony exclusive and the first Codemaster’s titles too, starting from probably 2016 CM gives me something “similar” to GP series; I don’t feel the cars so “bad”, and the environment is pretty good. I mean: lots of improvements could be done, but I suppose the most of the customers don’t search the real simulation, but a good compromise.

Ok, I’m pretty sure it does not simulate a real contemporary F1 car. But I’m also petty sure neither other consumer games give a real feedback... that’s why I think CM should improve sim features, but it is not so “Mission  critical” for the company. I do not “defend” CM... 🙂 I have no reason for this ... I just guess any game is pretty far from reality, as I recently read that even the Scuderia Ferrari’s simulator has troubles in computing the real tyre consumption....

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Posted (edited)

I think most people here are under 35 years of age and have never run anything by Geoff Crammond. 

If they had they would know it is perfectly possible to create a program and fidelity model that is scalable to both the complete novice to the expert driver using intelligent aids.

"It's either SIM, ARCADE or SIMCADE and nothing else! And CM has to cater to everyone! So no SIM!"

That sentence has become a mantra of sorts while it is a complete fallacy.

People must think I'm speaking Klingon or something, or talking about unicorns. 

Just load up GP2/3/4 (even though it is 25 years old and looks archaic at this point), and see how it scales with aids from the complete novice to the sim player.

Then again these are the same people who say: "what do you mean single car replay?" what else could they have done?"

Then again you can't ask someone to imagine what it is like to walk on the moon if they are born on a planet without one.

Their mind simply can't go to that place. 

But more than a lack of imagination, it is laziness. Simply a lack of looking at what has been done before.

Edited by codexas
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6 hours ago, maumarti said:

Oh yes! I didn’t mentioned GP4, and neither 3 and 2 because I consider Crammond’s work absolutely great. I can't imagine what we could have today if he continued to work...

Couldn't agree more! I just wish CM could have at least been close to where he had been - not even where he could have gotten the game too. Sort of a bad take on the Gretzky line - I think we would have been happy in this case if they had at least skated to where the puck was...

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10 hours ago, RaceMyZaru said:

The amount of effort required to make a separate sim physics model would probably not be financially worth it, considering the small amount of people who fall into "I'd buy this game only if it had a more realistic simulation" would barely show up in the sales charts of the Codemasters F1 games.

Not to mention that these "proper simracing games" often get the cars wrong too, despite their much more sophisticated physics simulation. With cars that are so heavily reliant on complex aero and tyres that not even the teams themselves fully understand, there'll always be a lot of extremely simplified guesswork involved. 

I obviously wouldn't say no to Codemasters doing these things, but other than repeated snide comments from simracing enthusiasts, there's not really much pressure to work on that.

I'd rather have them fix all the long-standing bugs and issues so I can play the game without getting angry, not invest tons of work into a new system that will just introduce thousands of new bugs.

I dont think its a niche. If u Look at Real Sims and so on the market is booming... So im sure it would be the Right direction for the game. They can easily add assists even with a hardcore Simulation. It's not that easy to drive without but therefore there are assists

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42 minutes ago, codexas said:

Just load up GP2/3/4 (even though it is 25 years old and looks archaic at this point), and see how it scales with aids from the complete novice to the sim player.

They had 5 different levels going from arcade to sim. The arcade had auto brakes, auto gears, auto-righting of the car if it spun out, being indestructible in terms of crashing, ideal line on track, suggested gear, throttle help, and steering help. You could turn a mix of these on or off so you could fine tune the arcade experience or go for driving unaided. 

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3 hours ago, codexas said:

I think most people here are under 35 years of age and have never run anything by Geoff Crammond. 

If they had they would know it is perfectly possible to create a program and fidelity model that is scalable to both the complete novice to the expert driver using intelligent aids.

"It's either SIM, ARCADE or SIMCADE and nothing else! And CM has to cater to everyone! So no SIM!"

That sentence has become a mantra of sorts while it is a complete fallacy.

People must think I'm speaking Klingon or something, or talking about unicorns. 

Just load up GP2/3/4 (even though it is 25 years old and looks archaic at this point), and see how it scales with aids from the complete novice to the sim player.

Then again these are the same people who say: "what do you mean single car replay?" what else could they have done?"

Then again you can't ask someone to imagine what it is like to walk on the moon if they are born on a planet without one.

Their mind simply can't go to that place. 

But more than a lack of imagination, it is laziness. Simply a lack of looking at what has been done before.

These are good points. However, at least on my part, it is not laziness. I struggle to have the ability to run old games. I also have limited experience transitioning from arcade, to simcade, to sim. I have also said I think the F1 game needs to be clearer in what it is offering if it is not a good sim physics experience. I was aware of the complaints ten years ago. However, I am also aware that there are lots of complaints everywhere about everything. So unless an F1 driver says something like "rFactor is an exact sim experience", then them saying, "F1 2019 is nothing like the real thing", doesn't help educate me at all or point me in any direction other than to hate on the best option available.

For the record it is actually very hard as a beginner casual race fan. If, for example, I am running the game on a laptop with a gamepad and gradually transitioning to a wheel and PC etc., then 110% AI and Elite assists are going to be too hard anyway. I may achieve 60% AI with assists or 20% AI without assists, after 400-500 hours, but the point is no, I am not going to spend that time trying to still make a 25 year old game work that doesn't want to work, even if the physics are better and ought to be implemented. For the record I am in agreement that it should be implemented. I am just saying I have never been in an F1 car or played many sims with many rigs so I am none the wiser if the game does implement better physics under Elite assists or not.

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8 hours ago, Exodium said:

I dont think its a niche. If u Look at Real Sims and so on the market is booming... So im sure it would be the Right direction for the game. They can easily add assists even with a hardcore Simulation. It's not that easy to drive without but therefore there are assists

Oh, Sims in general are definitely really popular right now, considering there's room for multiple games sharing that market and content creators playing them can draw in hundreds of thousands of fans.

I'm just saying the amount of people who are NOT buying the game specifically because it doesn't have F1 cars in sim racing quality is likely very small, so there's little sales potential here. Remember, most of those other sims have a wide variety of cars to appeal to many different types of fans and players. F1 games will always just have F1 (and slightly slower junior series like F2) cars.

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There are a lot of racing drivers F1 e sports at the moment.

Codemasters, do you talk to the drivers about their feedback?

You won't get better statements than from real F1 drivers and other racing drivers.

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It is in fact a Massive Opportunity for CM to get Real F1 Feedback from the Drivers themselves , much the same as Dirt also have real Rally Drivers on board to assist.

If they dont use this opportunity , I dont know when again they will have so much info at hand from the real drivers , bearing in mind their "Normal" Work Schedules.

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6 hours ago, RaceMyZaru said:

...

I'm just saying the amount of people who are NOT buying the game specifically because it doesn't have F1 cars in sim racing quality is likely very small, so there's little sales potential here...

 

I think this is the point: I keep saying I’m pretty sure that what is fascinating for the most F1 game “buyers” is the whole environment, including names, sponsor, carshape, rules, circuits, daylights (and nightlights), weather... 
To be honest, I don’t think Verstappen, Leclerc, Albon and so on do care about it... don’t them? They ARE who F1 fans like imitating, so they don’t need imitating themselves 😉 And probably is reasonable if they try a racing game they focus on car realism...  But I suspect there is more gap between a very good sim game and the truth than between a very good sim game and the actual official F1 game...: real F1 teams have issues with their own simulators (and they are more expensive than 50-60$$ also because of the simulation software, not just for the mechanical infrastructure...) That’s why it should be great if CM would implement a better physics model (maybe with next gen consoles...? Not sure, anyway...) but probably is not so “mission critical”: for the average gamers, car physics is good enough even if far from perfection. And I agree it’s true that creating a scalable model from arcade to sim is possible, but I guess also getting closer to the “edge” of the “very real simulation” increases the development costs exponentially, and if this is for a few amount of customers, then no margin = no feature... 😉

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I wonder if the Official Reply from Codemasters regarding the Norris/Verstappen Debacle is ever going to materialise, as per @BarryBL

 

Or will they just wait for the storm to blow over....

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On 4/21/2020 at 4:33 PM, maumarti said:

I think this is the point: I keep saying I’m pretty sure that what is fascinating for the most F1 game “buyers” is the whole environment, including names, sponsor, carshape, rules, circuits, daylights (and nightlights), weather... 
To be honest, I don’t think Verstappen, Leclerc, Albon and so on do care about it... don’t them? They ARE who F1 fans like imitating, so they don’t need imitating themselves 😉 And probably is reasonable if they try a racing game they focus on car realism...  But I suspect there is more gap between a very good sim game and the truth than between a very good sim game and the actual official F1 game...: real F1 teams have issues with their own simulators (and they are more expensive than 50-60$$ also because of the simulation software, not just for the mechanical infrastructure...) That’s why it should be great if CM would implement a better physics model (maybe with next gen consoles...? Not sure, anyway...) but probably is not so “mission critical”: for the average gamers, car physics is good enough even if far from perfection. And I agree it’s true that creating a scalable model from arcade to sim is possible, but I guess also getting closer to the “edge” of the “very real simulation” increases the development costs exponentially, and if this is for a few amount of customers, then no margin = no feature... 😉

I agree with the point that even F1 teams have issues with their sims but I also agree with sim racers when they say some basic things should be implemented that could have been ten years ago. The problem I have is with sim racers hounding the only F1 game to be a better sim, and meanwhile never hounding better sims to get an F1 license. If it is that simple then create a rival game or mod even if the names and sponsors and graphics are all slightly incorrect. Basically if cosmetics is the only thing then why aren't sim racing companies being pursued to get an official F1 license. Lando etc. could sort that out.

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On 4/21/2020 at 5:39 AM, RaceMyZaru said:

Oh, Sims in general are definitely really popular right now, considering there's room for multiple games sharing that market and content creators playing them can draw in hundreds of thousands of fans.

I'm just saying the amount of people who are NOT buying the game specifically because it doesn't have F1 cars in sim racing quality is likely very small, so there's little sales potential here. Remember, most of those other sims have a wide variety of cars to appeal to many different types of fans and players. F1 games will always just have F1 (and slightly slower junior series like F2) cars.

I totally agree with you.  Business is business, and this isn't a big enough "golden egg" to throw any resources at right now.

But imagine if Codemasters did create a proper Simulation mode.  It would be the only proper F1 simulation racer on the market.  How many of the Sim racers would become customers?

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With the amount of real life pro drivers sim racing atm due to no irl racing happening, it is not just CM F1 games handling and physics being criticised. There are real life IndyCar drivers who are just as critical of iRacings lack of realism too.

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18 minutes ago, chen255 said:

With the amount of real life pro drivers sim racing atm due to no irl racing happening, it is not just CM F1 games handling and physics being criticised. There are real life IndyCar drivers who are just as critical of iRacings lack of realism too.

Yeah, iRacing's tyre model was getting bashed as totally unrealistic by Indycar reigning champion Josef Newgarden 

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Posted (edited)

I saw that video, and also read that Scott Dixon didn’t think the IndyCar felt real at all.

I doubt that any sim/game is very realistic, they all just vary in their lack of realism in different ways. I think they are more a virtual nod to their real life counterpart, they do some things quite well but not others.

I don’t really mind, I have a great time on them anyway. I get a buzz piloting a virtual F1 car about some of the worlds most iconic tracks and corners and I have literally whooped with delight in some of them. Any game that can bring out the smiles and those types of emotions while I’m sitting on the couch playing is a winner. For me it’s about the fun and the challenge. Thank-you to Codemasters F1 games for those moments I have experienced.

I always loved the triple left hander at the Turkish Grand Prix that was in previous iterations of the CM F1 series always looked forward to that one. Such a shame that track was dropped from the calendar but there are so many others to be enjoyed.

I hope the producers of racing games keep striving for more realism though, and that we always have improvements in the physics and handling as the years go by.

Edited by chen255
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15 hours ago, chen255 said:

With the amount of real life pro drivers sim racing atm due to no irl racing happening, it is not just CM F1 games handling and physics being criticised. There are real life IndyCar drivers who are just as critical of iRacings lack of realism too.

While that's true i think there's a difference, while the critiques they are making towards Iracing(never tried it myself) are no doubt accurate and fair there isn't a sense of "i've seen this done much better in a different game" behind it like there is with the F1 series.

That's what i want, i want the F1 series to be as good as the good ones(or at least in the conversation), right now it isn't. 

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