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Britpoint said:
Remember that Flashbacks are not the only thing that determines how a race will play out online. GRID 2 had a very different handling model, different reactions to collisions, split routes on the city circuits, a more severe off-track penalty system. All of these things and more made GRID 2's online what it was - things that are different in Autosport. You may well find that because of the changes between the games, the inclusion of flashbacks doesn't have the same detrimental effect that you found in GRID 2.

And as ever, once the game is out and people are actually playing with the new system, the designers will be keeping an eye on things and listening to the feedback, and they'll go from there.


But have the Griefers change? If they find out they can use the flashbacks to their advantage like they did in GRID 2, they will be out causing trouble again.
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There will be "griefers" regardless of flashbacks or full damage. 

Flashbacks will enable you to cause a crash, and then escape out of it, before you smash into the wall and wreck your car. 

That is not fair.  

People will always crash,  it happens in real life racing.  So let it happen on a game, its still fun without flashbacks.  

Codemasters you DONT need to cater for noobs.  They really will buy the game regardless. Then you have their money.  If they cant get the hand of the game, they can trade it in, and go back to mario kart.  But that will still be too difficult.  Some people just dont get better at games.  Just because someone cannot complete a game on easy setting, doesnt mean the game needs to be made super easy.  

Please tell me any other racing game for xbox 360 or PC, that has flashbacks in the online mode. Any from the dawn of time will do. 

@Gor  Not sure which part I didnt understand, I found myself in agreement with your good self. 
:)>-
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Loore said:
Still no further comment from CM........... 8-}

You have to remember that for the most part everyone will pile into playlists and not everyone is a great driver, we have to give people a helping hand along the way or sooner or later you're going to run out of drivers to race against. Some people might not be as naturally gifted at racing games as you are, some might not know the track, while others may have a small blip of concentration. 



This paragraph alone proves It is these devs who treat the "newcomers" as idiots, although I have to admit they do well when blaming what they so contemptuously refer to as the "hardcore", making newcomers think we are the ones who despise them.

Why don't you make their cars auto-repair too after taking damage ala CoD?, men go ahead don't by shy; and auto-pilot too of course, cause hey CM, according to your logic they may not be able to even take corners without assist.

Useless unfair handholding like this destroy a game CM. You just won't learn.
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Yes to autopilot.  PMSL

No, seriously, Dont even joke about such an assist.  You will find it in the next game they make, on Xbox One.  They will say, "due to community feedback".  

Autopilot is a joke CM.  So are flashbacks. 

DEVS -- Just because you need a flashback or 5, doesnt mean your CUSTOMERS do.   

I am a customer, I am always correct.  Flashbacks NO.  

Good game  = with flashbacks.
Best Racing  game on Xbox 360 EVER....= No flashbacks           

Such potential for this game.  But you guys really dont seem to grasp the wants of the community...YOUR CUSTOMERS.  


Im really enjoying reminiscing over this list of games that contained flashbacks online..... 

For those of you that dont know the list....here it is:  

1.................................GRID 2
2.................................
3.................................
4.................................
5.................................
6.................................

Wow, not many games there.  

Is that perhaps due to the FACT, flashbacks have NO place in a racing game.  If you think they do then you simply need to grow up, and MAN-UP.   

Honestly I dont understand whats wrong with you.  Is the oldest person on the GRID 2 and Autopsport team 18? 
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@ RTAnoskills
you forgot to mention a few games with flashbacks in it.
Grid, Dirt 2, dirt 3.

And yes even grid had flashbacks, not sure if it was online aswell.
Its just to long ago for me to remember but it deffently had it in SP.
I believe grid was the game they introduced flashbacks
Now I am against flashbacks aswell but they have it in their games for a long time and I dont see them removing it.
But it is deffently a codemasters thing.




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There was no Flashbacks with GRID 1 online!!!!!! But GRID 1 I believe was first Codemasters game to use flashbacks offline.

Assie, you sure DIRT 2 and 3 had flashback online? I ended up passing on DIRT 2 and 3 thanks to GFWL, so I can not confirm flashbacks were use online or not with DIRT.



Im really enjoying reminiscing over this list of games that contained flashbacks online..... 

For those of you that dont know the list....here it is:  

1.................................GRID 2


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As I said above, this is something we're looking at and will be watching closely when online opens up to everyone. It is something we'll be monitoring and if need be, will react. At the moment we're discussing a mode that very few people have played and while we all have ideas as to how it's going to play out we'd still rather see it in the wild first.

That said, please don't start going down the route of throwing out insults. We're quite open and honest with you but if the insults to the team continue we'll start re-evaluating the approach. Our way of working can only continue with a two way approach, we don't ask you to agree with everything we say but at least talk to us / about us without throwing insults around.
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I know it was about online.
Like I said grid online was to long ago for me to remember if it was online aswell.

My memory was wrong about dirt2 having flashbacks online, just checked the settings of custom sessions and it wasn't there.
Couldn't try the playlist as I was the only one in the game I believe.    :D

But I was correct about dirt 3 though in custom lobby you do have flashbacks for the pro tour I cant say right now as I run into the same problem as with dirt2.  :D

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@Loore and the Team, I apologise for the insult. 

Its just that the whole idea of a flashback seems childish, As a gamer from the 80's it was me that had to "beat" the game.   

There was no way for me to moan that the game was too hard,and no way for developers to hear the complaints from players, But that meant games were not made for noobs. They took playing for weeks to complete. (not talking specific games, just games of old in general) 

Playability was a big part of old games, they were simple, but fun, and on hard mode, could be damn hard to do.   Because of playing these games, I quickly realised I have to get better at it. Or just stop playing it.

Thats why when I play games today, and I see these things added to help out the "lesser" player it annoys me.  

Why does the game have to be made easy for people?

 I have no doubt I will be good on autosport, I may not be the best in the world, but I will be a good and quick racer. But this will take time and practise. I will have to get used to the cars, Get a competitive tune etc.  But thats the fun.  

Where is the fun with being about to get a game on day 1 and its soooooo easy its complete within a few hours? I know autosport will take more than a few hours to complete, but Im just talking in genral.   

I dont generally buy a game unless I intend to get my moneys worth from it.  Im going to play it to death, untill I cant get any better at the game, or untill a newer and hopefully better game comes out.  

When you put flashbacks into online play, it just ruins the whole racing experience.  If a player isnt good enough to race online with real people, dont give them flashbacks, suggest they go on single player and improve. 

When this game come out, Im going to find out exactly how nasty you can be with a flashback, Ill do with friends as not to ruin someones day,  and Ill record it, then you can see.  


On a lighter note, The latest touring car gameplay done by the lead car developer (sorry if their title is wrong) I have to say, he has some interesting overtaking techniques, LOL  Good job it was only single player, a few of those overtakes on the inside of turns would have left a real person feeling a little disgruntled.  

But didnt see any corner cutting penalties, can the next vid not be on Hokenheimring or Jarama please. 

Get rid of online flashbacks before the game is out, and I will defend CM till the end of time. 
:D
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@Loore and the Team, I apologise for the insult. 

Its just that the whole idea of a flashback seems childish, As a gamer from the 80's it was me that had to "beat" the game.   

There was no way for me to moan that the game was too hard,and no way for developers to hear the complaints from players, But that meant games were not made for noobs. They took playing for weeks to complete. (not talking specific games, just games of old in general) 

Playability was a big part of old games, they were simple, but fun, and on hard mode, could be damn hard to do.   Because of playing these games, I quickly realised I have to get better at it. Or just stop playing it.

Thats why when I play games today, and I see these things added to help out the "lesser" player it annoys me.  

Why does the game have to be made easy for people?

 I have no doubt I will be good on autosport, I may not be the best in the world, but I will be a good and quick racer. But this will take time and practise. I will have to get used to the cars, Get a competitive tune etc.  But thats the fun.  

Where is the fun with being about to get a game on day 1 and its soooooo easy its complete within a few hours? I know autosport will take more than a few hours to complete, but Im just talking in genral.   

I dont generally buy a game unless I intend to get my moneys worth from it.  Im going to play it to death, untill I cant get any better at the game, or untill a newer and hopefully better game comes out.  

When you put flashbacks into online play, it just ruins the whole racing experience.  If a player isnt good enough to race online with real people, dont give them flashbacks, suggest they go on single player and improve. 

When this game come out, Im going to find out exactly how nasty you can be with a flashback, Ill do with friends as not to ruin someones day,  and Ill record it, then you can see.  


On a lighter note, The latest touring car gameplay done by the lead car developer (sorry if their title is wrong) I have to say, he has some interesting overtaking techniques, LOL  Good job it was only single player, a few of those overtakes on the inside of turns would have left a real person feeling a little disgruntled.  

But didnt see any corner cutting penalties, can the next vid not be on Hokenheimring or Jarama please. 

Get rid of online flashbacks before the game is out, and I will defend CM till the end of time. 
:D
Thing is, you do have the option of turning off flashbacks in the custom, so why is this such an issue ?

The odds are that if you are a good racer you won't be wanting to race with people who would want to use flashbacks anyway, so moving into a custom allows you to filter those people out.

Different people learn in different ways. Some want to bash their head against a wall until the wall breaks (you and me) others want less stick and more carrot. Remember they are supposed to be having fun, and what is fun varies from person to person.

By allowing flashbacks you stand a chance of keeping learners in the game and progressing them on to a stage where they might be good enough to race without flashbacks. And that's what everyone wants isn't it ? More people in the game. If flashbacks are not where the best racers are then eventually people wanting to continue will move from flashbacks to no flahsbacks as they become good enough to challenge the elite.

In the meantime the custom helps you stop the newbies from ruining your race while they get up to speed.

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dirt3joe said:
@Loore and the Team, I apologise for the insult. 

Its just that the whole idea of a flashback seems childish, As a gamer from the 80's it was me that had to "beat" the game.   

There was no way for me to moan that the game was too hard,and no way for developers to hear the complaints from players, But that meant games were not made for noobs. They took playing for weeks to complete. (not talking specific games, just games of old in general) 

Playability was a big part of old games, they were simple, but fun, and on hard mode, could be damn hard to do.   Because of playing these games, I quickly realised I have to get better at it. Or just stop playing it.

Thats why when I play games today, and I see these things added to help out the "lesser" player it annoys me.  

Why does the game have to be made easy for people?

 I have no doubt I will be good on autosport, I may not be the best in the world, but I will be a good and quick racer. But this will take time and practise. I will have to get used to the cars, Get a competitive tune etc.  But thats the fun.  

Where is the fun with being about to get a game on day 1 and its soooooo easy its complete within a few hours? I know autosport will take more than a few hours to complete, but Im just talking in genral.   

I dont generally buy a game unless I intend to get my moneys worth from it.  Im going to play it to death, untill I cant get any better at the game, or untill a newer and hopefully better game comes out.  

When you put flashbacks into online play, it just ruins the whole racing experience.  If a player isnt good enough to race online with real people, dont give them flashbacks, suggest they go on single player and improve. 

When this game come out, Im going to find out exactly how nasty you can be with a flashback, Ill do with friends as not to ruin someones day,  and Ill record it, then you can see.  


On a lighter note, The latest touring car gameplay done by the lead car developer (sorry if their title is wrong) I have to say, he has some interesting overtaking techniques, LOL  Good job it was only single player, a few of those overtakes on the inside of turns would have left a real person feeling a little disgruntled.  

But didnt see any corner cutting penalties, can the next vid not be on Hokenheimring or Jarama please. 

Get rid of online flashbacks before the game is out, and I will defend CM till the end of time. 
:D
Thing is, you do have the option of turning off flashbacks in the custom, so why is this such an issue ?

The odds are that if you are a good racer you won't be wanting to race with people who would want to use flashbacks anyway, so moving into a custom allows you to filter those people out.

Different people learn in different ways. Some want to bash their head against a wall until the wall breaks (you and me) others want less stick and more carrot. Remember they are supposed to be having fun, and what is fun varies from person to person.

By allowing flashbacks you stand a chance of keeping learners in the game and progressing them on to a stage where they might be good enough to race without flashbacks. And that's what everyone wants isn't it ? More people in the game. If flashbacks are not where the best racers are then eventually people wanting to continue will move from flashbacks to no flahsbacks as they become good enough to challenge the elite.

In the meantime the custom helps you stop the newbies from ruining your race while they get up to speed.

I agree @dirt3joe and exactly for that reason is why we have different lobbies and sections to try to cater for everybody's needs at least those that wish to play online newbie/experienced alike. I don't play online personally but that's my choice but I have watched others play online so I do know how the system works so I can still form an opinion based on my observations.

My observations and comments CM are coming out with suggest to me that they want to create an atmosphere that is good for everyone whether they be casual players or experienced racers which is a good thing all round as it makes casuals feel welcome and earns CM more money from increased sales..

I know from experience that if I knew Grid was a full blown sim I would most certainly stay away as I generally have enough challenges in my life being disabled to frustrate myself to that extent. I also know I wouldn't be the only one that would do that and they know it would cost them a lot of respect as well as money if they chose to drop the flashback system given the way these games handle. I agree  that CM have made mistakes in previous years with their games but I don't think there is a games developer who hasn't at one point or another. In my opinion however I have to say the introduction of flashbacks in their games is not one of them.;

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My problem with custom lobbies is filling them up.  I dont want to race a couple of friends, I want a 12 person race.  

Easiest way to get that.....online playlist.  

If flashbacks are wanted, YOU go into a custom lobby.  

Who knows maybe on Autosport, many more people who are good at racing games will play it, and hopefully stick around.  Then custom lobbies might be an option, but right now, I cant get 12 people who can race properly into a custom lobby.  

There is maybe 10 people on xbox live who can and do race cleanly and fairly, the majority of people, are considered clean racers by many players, However I dont consider them to be "clean" just because they say they are sorry after crashing you.  Then they say sorry to everyone else in the lobby at some point.  They are constantly making mistakes and causing crashes, not pressing flashback quick enough etc. 

Clean racers, do not constantly bump people all over the place,  They are patient, they wait for the chance to overtake without making contact, and without forcing someone off the track. 

Currently GRID 2 on xbox live doesnt have enough people that are capable of doing this, many think they are, but they really are not.  

Hardcore mode is dead, apart from the odd time, when normal race mode is just toooooo crazy.  But then they kill their cars most of the time. 

If you can attract lots of forza 4 players, and I think you may with the tuning aspect, I know its not as indepth as forza tuning, but its still a nice addition. Then maybe the game will have a clean and fast community and maybe Ill be able to go into a custom lobby.  

The attraction of online playlist racing, is you dont know who your are going to meet. People from all over the world, that I dont know.  They may be dirty, they may be awesome, enemies will be made and so will good friends.  

If you hide away in a custom lobby with just your friends, your diminishing your xbox live experience.  


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My problem with custom lobbies is filling them up.  I dont want to race a couple of friends, I want a 12 person race.  

Easiest way to get that.....online playlist.  

If flashbacks are wanted, YOU go into a custom lobby.  

Who knows maybe on Autosport, many more people who are good at racing games will play it, and hopefully stick around.  Then custom lobbies might be an option, but right now, I cant get 12 people who can race properly into a custom lobby.  

There is maybe 10 people on xbox live who can and do race cleanly and fairly, the majority of people, are considered clean racers by many players, However I dont consider them to be "clean" just because they say they are sorry after crashing you.  Then they say sorry to everyone else in the lobby at some point.  They are constantly making mistakes and causing crashes, not pressing flashback quick enough etc. 

Clean racers, do not constantly bump people all over the place,  They are patient, they wait for the chance to overtake without making contact, and without forcing someone off the track. 

Currently GRID 2 on xbox live doesnt have enough people that are capable of doing this, many think they are, but they really are not.  

Hardcore mode is dead, apart from the odd time, when normal race mode is just toooooo crazy.  But then they kill their cars most of the time. 

If you can attract lots of forza 4 players, and I think you may with the tuning aspect, I know its not as indepth as forza tuning, but its still a nice addition. Then maybe the game will have a clean and fast community and maybe Ill be able to go into a custom lobby.  

The attraction of online playlist racing, is you dont know who your are going to meet. People from all over the world, that I dont know.  They may be dirty, they may be awesome, enemies will be made and so will good friends.  

If you hide away in a custom lobby with just your friends, your diminishing your xbox live experience.  


I think it's done this way for ease of use though experienced players know what options to select for them  so they know where to go in the menu's to select what they want new players don't have that experience yet and need to learn their way around and this takes time. Making thing easier to learn at first in my opinion leads to a general better gaming experience I think and that is what CM are aiming for I think in the longer term
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My problem with custom lobbies is filling them up.  I dont want to race a couple of friends, I want a 12 person race.  

Easiest way to get that.....online playlist.  

If flashbacks are wanted, YOU go into a custom lobby.  

Who knows maybe on Autosport, many more people who are good at racing games will play it, and hopefully stick around.  Then custom lobbies might be an option, but right now, I cant get 12 people who can race properly into a custom lobby.  

There is maybe 10 people on xbox live who can and do race cleanly and fairly, the majority of people, are considered clean racers by many players, However I dont consider them to be "clean" just because they say they are sorry after crashing you.  Then they say sorry to everyone else in the lobby at some point.  They are constantly making mistakes and causing crashes, not pressing flashback quick enough etc. 

Clean racers, do not constantly bump people all over the place,  They are patient, they wait for the chance to overtake without making contact, and without forcing someone off the track. 

Currently GRID 2 on xbox live doesnt have enough people that are capable of doing this, many think they are, but they really are not.  

Hardcore mode is dead, apart from the odd time, when normal race mode is just toooooo crazy.  But then they kill their cars most of the time. 

If you can attract lots of forza 4 players, and I think you may with the tuning aspect, I know its not as indepth as forza tuning, but its still a nice addition. Then maybe the game will have a clean and fast community and maybe Ill be able to go into a custom lobby.  

The attraction of online playlist racing, is you dont know who your are going to meet. People from all over the world, that I dont know.  They may be dirty, they may be awesome, enemies will be made and so will good friends.  

If you hide away in a custom lobby with just your friends, your diminishing your xbox live experience.  


Seems like a rock and a hard place to me.

If you don't allow then maybe not enough people will want to carry on playing the game online and learn enough not to use flashbacks.

On the other hand if you do allow by making the custom room then you don't get people feeding into the custom rooms.

My guess is though that if you enter racing leagues etc you can find enough people to go into the custom rooms right ? And if you race in playlists you can contact the people who race the way you want and get them to move into the custom rooms as well ?

To me the base level should be as inclusive as possible, and then groups such as hardcore split off from that ?

I think it is worthwhile giving the game ago as stands at the moment and then asking for mods if it isn't seen to be working. To me getting more people into the game is important thing and if flashback helps that then it is a good thing, because the guy using a flahback today might be the guy giving you an exciting no flashback race in 2 months time.


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And I cant remember my last Grid 2 session not on the hardcore playlist, purely because I dont want to be casually trashed by flashback users.
The flashback playlists are not used by a lot of people, please have a playlist (or two) without flashbacks, for the more 'serious casual !'  :)  players to jump in and race. 
See the playlists have changed the way I and a lot of others go online, I have done only a dozen or so of my 3.5k+ Grid 2 online races in custom lobbies,  flashbacks are not required here.
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Loggy said:
And I cant remember my last Grid 2 session not on the hardcore playlist, purely because I dont want to be casually trashed by flashback users.
The flashback playlists are not used by a lot of people, please have a playlist (or two) without flashbacks, for the more 'serious casual !'  :)  players to jump in and race. 
See the playlists have changed the way I and a lot of others go online, I have done only a dozen or so of my 3.5k+ Grid 2 online races in custom lobbies,  flashbacks are not required here.
You may well be onto something here Loggy maybe what we need is maybe having a kind of half sand half situation where some will allow those that haven't got the idea yet to still race with flashbacks and for those that don't feel they need them can go onto the alternative ones just prompt the player to select which group they wish to join before going in. Don't know if it woulfd be done but it could be a halfway house measure that would suit everyone
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Let turn this around, have just one playlist that has flashbacks available and have this playlist be a smorgasbord of the the different tracks and cars so the "new" player get expose to what GIRD A has to offer if newbie did not take the time to do career mode first to learn the tracks before going online?

Also GRID 1 online was very successful for 3 years before the online servers were turn off, with no flashback options. I don't see how having flashbacks would make online racing with GRID A stronger.

From what we saw with GRID 2, flashbacks hurt the health of the online community!  :(

I'm curious how flashback going to effect the damage to the cars. Codies say griefers will damage their cars and then will have to pay to repair them. Codies says this will discourage the griefers. But, if griefers get to use flashbacks, will that not fix the damage to their car? Then the griefers will not have to pay to fix their cars? So with flashback being use online, whats to stop the griefers from causing trouble?


I want to race in 10-12 PC player lobbys, On a Saturday, being a US player, odds are I will see a good selection of custom hosts to join if there no region lock. But the rest of week, custom hosts will be harder to fine and more likely only have a few players. So if want to get to race in a full lobby, the playlist will probably be your best bet.

In GRID 2, I did most my racing online in the playlists. Mostly in Hardcore when it got patch in. And thanks to the pre-order bonuses and dlcs mess, about half the custom hosts I could not join anyway!!

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Purple44 said:
Let turn this around, have just one playlist that has flashbacks available and have this playlist be a smorgasbord of the the different tracks and cars so the "new" player get expose to what GIRD A has to offer if newbie did not take the time to do career mode first to learn the tracks before going online?

Also GRID 1 online was very successful for 3 years before the online servers were turn off, with no flashback options. I don't see how having flashbacks would make online racing with GRID A stronger.

From what we saw with GRID 2, flashbacks hurt the health of the online community!  :(

I'm curious how flashback going to effect the damage to the cars. Codies say griefers will damage their cars and then will have to pay to repair them. Codies says this will discourage the griefers. But, if griefers get to use flashbacks, will that not fix the damage to their car? Then the griefers will not have to pay to fix their cars? So with flashback being use online, whats to stop the griefers from causing trouble?


I want to race in 10-12 PC player lobbys, On a Saturday, being a US player, odds are I will see a good selection of custom hosts to join if there no region lock. But the rest of week, custom hosts will be harder to fine and more likely only have a few players. So if want to get to race in a full lobby, the playlist will probably be your best bet.

In GRID 2, I did most my racing online in the playlists. Mostly in Hardcore when it got patch in. And thanks to the pre-order bonuses and dlcs mess, about half the custom hosts I could not join anyway!!

I think @Loore said that Flashbacks would be limited so they can't  just be used willy nilly so that should prevent people doing it too much if at all
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GRID 2 had 5 flashbacks to use, people been guessing this will get lowered to 3 in GRID A. That be enough for greifers to still cause plenty of trouble, then if their car get fix, they still have a fresh car to go on and cause some more trouble until griefer wrecks his car.

And if griefer using a loaner car, would griefer even worry about wrecking the car? Will GRID A charge you $$ for the damage to a loaner car?

Here a compromise, 1 flashback for the ones that feel the need to use it and flashback should not gain you position on the track. Should cost you a few seconds, so there some kind of penalty for taking turn to fast or braking to late.

In a custom host, let host decide how many flashbacks can be use, 0-5.
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