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7 minutes ago, UP100 said:

Using data to construct a world in this case is definitely not programming. In fact it could be the exact opposite as many programmers are horrible with modelling and such actions. Sure literally everything is programming in the end as everything has to tie into the game somehow.

Tracks are created by artists and level designers that use the data they have try and have the most accurate assets as is possible with the data they got.

For example: The rF2 guys laserscanned the Nürburgring track in 2018 but they were only able to release it in September of 2019. Shows that creating all the assets to an acceptable standard takes time.

I'm not sure why you are so hard pressed to defend this, but it seems you feel that it's an absolute impossibility that Codemasters will ever use laser scanned tracks, and you seem to have lots of reasons for that.

Again, I know it takes resources.  You and I have no idea what rF2 did with that data for that period of time.  For all we know, the track was designed and ready to go, but they had problems integrating it into their systems.  Or maybe they had completely unrelated problems that delayed the release.  They will surely never tell their secrets to the likes of you and me.

In the end, none of that matters.  We, the players, are hoping to see laser scanned tracks in the future.  If Codemasters wants to do that, they will surely be able to figure out how.

(PS: Nürburgring  is one of the longest and most complicated tracks on the planet, and more than 4 times longer than any F1 track on the calendar.)

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3 minutes ago, DrDraken said:

I'm not sure why you are so hard pressed to defend this, but it seems you feel that it's an absolute impossibility that Codemasters will ever use laser scanned tracks, and you seem to have lots of reasons for that.

Again, I know it takes resources.  You and I have no idea what rF2 did with that data for that period of time.  For all we know, the track was designed and ready to go, but they had problems integrating it into their systems.  Or maybe they had completely unrelated problems that delayed the release.  They will surely never tell their secrets to the likes of you and me.

In the end, none of that matters.  We, the players, are hoping to see laser scanned tracks in the future.  If Codemasters wants to do that, they will surely be able to figure out how.

(PS: Nürburgring  is one of the longest and most complicated tracks on the planet, and more than 4 times longer than any F1 track on the calendar.)

I'm just "managing your expectations" 😁

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29 minutes ago, UP100 said:

Using data to construct a world in this case is definitely not programming. In fact it could be the exact opposite as many programmers are horrible with modelling and such actions. Sure literally everything is programming in the end as everything has to tie into the game somehow.

Tracks are created by artists and level designers that use the data they have try and have the most accurate assets as is possible with the data they got.

For example: The rF2 guys laserscanned the Nürburgring track in 2018 but they were only able to release it in September of 2019. Shows that creating all the assets to an acceptable standard takes time.

But rf2 devs, S397 are a tiny team compared to codemasters and have a tiny budget compared, so pls stop using S397 and rf2 as an example, because it does the opposite than confirm your reasoning

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4 minutes ago, pachedupdemon said:

But rf2 devs, S397 are a tiny team compared to codemasters and have a tiny budget compared, so pls stop using S397 and rf2 as an example, because it does the opposite than confirm your reasoning

I think the example fits perfectly into the fact that someone said that creating assets for a track is programming 🙂 

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I'm sure most of you have noticed it at some point anyways, but if you haven't, you shouldn't be surprised with all of this... after all Codemasters still hasn't realised the addition of the 3rd DRS zone in Singapore.

Some tracks change from year to year. Have they ever implemented a resurfaced circuit, removal of bumps, changes to the kerbs, DRS changes, pitlane changes (and many more things) in time for the correct game either at launch or post-release (France pitlane took them a while)

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1 minute ago, GestirnZinker97 said:

Have they ever implemented a resurfaced circuit, removal of bumps, changes to the kerbs, DRS changes, pitlane changes (and many more things) in time for the correct game either at launch or post-release (France pitlane took them a while)

They had the DRS zones at Silverstone correct for the release of this years game.

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3 minutes ago, UP100 said:

I think the example fits perfectly into the fact that someone said that creating assets for a track is programming 🙂 

That would be me, and you yourself admitted that it was indeed programming - though maybe not the type you are familiar with.  Sorry, but if it involves telling a computer what to do, that's called programming.  If may involve an existing engine for creating the world, but it's still programming.  Split all the hairs you want, and pass all the bucks you want.  You are desperately trying to be right, and keep Codemasters from looking bad in any way.  As for "managing my expectations" that's just another way of trying to be right.  It's condescending.  Just stop, please.

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Just now, DrDraken said:

That would be me, and you yourself admitted that it was indeed programming - though maybe not the type you are familiar with.  Sorry, but if it involves telling a computer what to do, that's called programming.  If may involve an existing engine for creating the world, but it's still programming.  Split all the hairs you want, and pass all the bucks you want.  You are desperately trying to be right, and keep Codemasters from looking bad in any way.  As for "managing my expectations" that's just another way of trying to be right.  It's condescending.  Just stop, please.

So currently we are programming, as we are typing a post on the forums?

I don't see what you mean. The only concept of programming I've ever seen is a case in which someone is programming. Doing something that doesn't involve programming is not programming, even if it's using something that was programmed.

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1 minute ago, UP100 said:

So currently we are programming, as we are typing a post on the forums?

I don't see what you mean. The only concept of programming I've ever seen is a case in which someone is programming. Doing something that doesn't involve programming is not programming, even if it's using something that was programmed.

You are the most condescending "moderator" I've ever dealt with. Period.

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1 minute ago, DrDraken said:

You are the most condescending "moderator" I've ever dealt with. Period.

I apologize for the way I write english but alternatively you could've replied with your view about what we are talking about 🙂 

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Posted (edited)

Here is actually a quite a nice video of showing how much asset creation goes behind the scenes

Also because @pachedupdemon didn't like my previous example as it's the tiny Studio-397, the art & production vice precident on the video estimated the production to take 6 months!

Edited by UP100
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4 minutes ago, UP100 said:

I apologize for the way I write english but alternatively you could've replied with your view about what we are talking about 🙂 

I've been replying with my views, and you've been insulting me, both directly to me (in your responses) and to other forums members about my posts. If you are interested in having a discussion about the game, improvements, changes, fixes, etc, then you need to knock off the condescending attitude and constant defence of Codemasters' shortcomings.

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2 minutes ago, DrDraken said:

I've been replying with my views, and you've been insulting me, both directly to me (in your responses) and to other forums members about my posts. If you are interested in having a discussion about the game, improvements, changes, fixes, etc, then you need to knock off the condescending attitude and constant defence of Codemasters' shortcomings.

Please PM me the insulting parts so I can read them over and try to understand how they can be viewed as insulting 🙂 

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Posted (edited)

What is insulting is that the official FIA products do not feature laser scanned tracks or even correct DRS zones. That's before we get to such things as relative driver/team performance, car handling and setup model, saftey car etc. The games are far from what I would expect official licensed products to be, and from what is advertised.

Maybe I expect too much, but the games in my opinion have become a bit of a joke. Recent comments by F1 drivers like that at the beginning of the thread only seve to back this up.

The whole game(s) could be viewed as an artist's impression! 🤔

Edited by ChasteWand
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I don't care of having laser scanned tracks in F1 games, I'd love them, but looking at the tracks now I'd be happy even with an accurate model from scratch. Reiza didn't scan most of their tracks, but they're extremely good, because they did their homework, they cared to give us a great track to race on.

A laser scanned track is welcome, a good model should be a must in the first place. We still have Suzuka with a non existent bump at the last corner. It would probably take them a couple of minutes to fix it, They didn't, they just copy paste everything

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15 minutes ago, TheWalker17 said:

A laser scanned track is welcome, a good model should be a must in the first place. We still have Suzuka with a non existent bump at the last corner. It would probably take them a couple of minutes to fix it, They didn't, they just copy paste everything

My guess with this is that it's not the track layout that's wrong, but instead it's the physics engine derping for some reason in that corner.

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3 hours ago, DrDraken said:

But isn't that the whole reason a company brings another company on board?  To use their expertise?  I don't mean they should up and command them to halt all production, but if that's something SMS is known for, it would stand to reason to have them do it.

Another major reason to take over a company is to STOP competition in its tracks. Instead of being embarrassed by a smaller company doing a better job with some of their assets you take over the company and take those assets for yourself. Or discontinue those assets as they don't fit in with your project plans. Project Cars for example had the cars, tracks and weather nailed down but contained in a poor package overall, with a poor career mode that just connected a series of different races together. I dont think well ever see another public released sim from sms now, except maybe in the corporate sector as has already been mentioned as a goal.

If a developer buys out ALL its competition it no longer needs to even try to improve its own project. In this case though there is no reason why track licensing and creation that is already completed cannot be assimilated into future F1 games. If it isn't then what a lost opportunity that is.

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16 hours ago, UP100 said:

My guess with this is that it's not the track layout that's wrong, but instead it's the physics engine derping for some reason in that corner.

The bump exists in the last three versions of the game (as far as I'm aware) and has been pointed out several times by the community. Why were no changes made? 

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1 hour ago, SAL_LippiArsenal said:

The bump exists in the last three versions of the game (as far as I'm aware) and has been pointed out several times by the community. Why were no changes made? 

Do you know that the bump exists, or that the car jumps/bounces/whatever? I've been asking this from so many different people, but none seem to actually know the answer.

If there is a bump, I don't have any guesses on why it hasn't been fixed. If it's the physics engine derping, I guess they'd want to fix it properly instead of having an employee botch something together.

I didn't spot this problem in F1 2017 but I know it was in F1 2018 at least.

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15 minutes ago, UP100 said:

If there is a bump, I don't have any guesses on why it hasn't been fixed. If it's the physics engine derping, I guess they'd want to fix it properly instead of having an employee botch something together.

This game has a physics engine? Are you sure, have you seen the code? 😁

Botching things together is a codemasters specialist skill, fixing properly however is not in their vocabulary. Legacy bugs, saftey car, online, r+d, driver transfers, time based vs frame based animation/calculation...

How many times has patch had unseen consequences even after testing?

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51 minutes ago, UP100 said:

Do you know that the bump exists, or that the car jumps/bounces/whatever? I've been asking this from so many different people, but none seem to actually know the answer.

If there is a bump, I don't have any guesses on why it hasn't been fixed. If it's the physics engine derping, I guess they'd want to fix it properly instead of having an employee botch something together.

I didn't spot this problem in F1 2017 but I know it was in F1 2018 at least.

I'm fairly sure it's on the track and not just an invisible glitch. You can see the elevation change of the road from cockpit view, although it doesn't look half as drastic as it feels. Visually It's more like a small crest that shouldn't be a problem unless going around 300 km/h.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, DrDraken said:

That would be me, and you yourself admitted that it was indeed programming - though maybe not the type you are familiar with.  Sorry, but if it involves telling a computer what to do, that's called programming.

I can tell you, from the perspective of an artist (mainly drawing and painting) with previous freelance experiance in 3D asset creation, it is indeed not programing on the art department side of things. You clearly have no idea the process it takes to create a track, car, or other 3d asset in a 3d modelling program. My experiance is with a program called 3d studio max, and you have to create the assets manually, by hand. Using referance photos, measurements. And so forth. Having a laser scan of a track or car can help speed up this process and make it more accurate, but even with that, it is still a hard and time consuming process of manually editing faces, vertices and lines (simple explenation). You may want to actually research that sort of thing before commenting on it, because it is far from as easy as "telling a computer what to do". A 3d artist will do very litte programming work, because that isnt what they are hired for. They are hired for asset creation. At most, they will enter numbers for measruments here an there, and use mapping co-ordinates for applying textures and materials to the 3d assets. "Some" staff from the art deparments may help with putting the assets in game, but usually they are handed off to a different part of the dev team for that process. Thats pretty much it. A 3d artist for motion pictures and TV may go more in depth with the creation of particle effects and such, which does add in a "bit" of programming, to a point. But in terms of making a 3d asset or 3d enviroment for a video game, not so much.

Here is an example of someone 3d modelling a car, I believe they are using Autodesk Maya, judging by the logo in the bottom left corner of the program window -
 


Even with laser scan data, it can take months to make a single car, and usually longer still to make a race track.

Edited by Ialyrn
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On 4/19/2020 at 3:53 PM, UP100 said:

Do you know that the bump exists, or that the car jumps/bounces/whatever? I've been asking this from so many different people, but none seem to actually know the answer.

If there is a bump, I don't have any guesses on why it hasn't been fixed. If it's the physics engine derping, I guess they'd want to fix it properly instead of having an employee botch something together.

I didn't spot this problem in F1 2017 but I know it was in F1 2018 at least.

What I know for sure is that we have pointed out this "issue" very often in the past and nothing has changed.

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On 4/18/2020 at 12:18 PM, UP100 said:

Just because SMS is part of Codies, doesn't mean they have any kind of significant effect on the Birmingham based F1 team. They could as well go help Southam or even Cheshire, if they'd help anyone at all.

Different studios do help each other out from tim et otim though so that's not strictly true as I know of 2 specific occasions wher ethis has happened. The first is  EA when they were making the Journey for Fifa's 17-19 they got Bioware to help with the RPG mechanics in that mode. The secondoccasion is with ME Andromeda where the NFS teams helped Bioware develop the driving physics for the Nomad (your land vehicle) in the game. We'll haveto wai tand see though as to whether SMS do have an impact though.

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On 4/19/2020 at 11:48 AM, Ialyrn said:

I can tell you, from the perspective of an artist (mainly drawing and painting) with previous freelance experiance in 3D asset creation, it is indeed not programing on the art department side of things. You clearly have no idea the process it takes to create a track, car, or other 3d asset in a 3d modelling program. My experiance is with a program called 3d studio max, and you have to create the assets manually, by hand. Using referance photos, measurements. And so forth. Having a laser scan of a track or car can help speed up this process and make it more accurate, but even with that, it is still a hard and time consuming process of manually editing faces, vertices and lines (simple explenation). You may want to actually research that sort of thing before commenting on it, because it is far from as easy as "telling a computer what to do". A 3d artist will do very litte programming work, because that isnt what they are hired for. They are hired for asset creation. At most, they will enter numbers for measruments here an there, and use mapping co-ordinates for applying textures and materials to the 3d assets. "Some" staff from the art deparments may help with putting the assets in game, but usually they are handed off to a different part of the dev team for that process. Thats pretty much it. A 3d artist for motion pictures and TV may go more in depth with the creation of particle effects and such, which does add in a "bit" of programming, to a point. But in terms of making a 3d asset or 3d enviroment for a video game, not so much.

Here is an example of someone 3d modelling a car, I believe they are using Autodesk Maya, judging by the logo in the bottom left corner of the program window -
 


Even with laser scan data, it can take months to make a single car, and usually longer still to make a race track.

Thanks for this. I had a vague idea of how it was done, but I didn't realize that, even with the data from laser scanning, it would still need to be done by hand.  In that case, my hat's off to all such people.

 

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