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List of our physic sugesstions!!

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Lot of guys are posting the new topics about their physic ideas and problems,  and I'd like to collect our suggestion and create a list of them!

If you have some ideas about physic or the list, send my message or comment this discussion!

The list:
  • Grip improvment, too much grip (At the begining i would like to say, i dont want to make it like ice, just needs to be brought down a tad imo. The back end is almost totally planted and overall it could be a little looser.  more on this and this topics(I recomend you to read this topics), and some real vs game examples)
  • Proper modelling of tire spin ("Currently in game there is rudimentary traction control being applied to traction loss (even with TC turned off) This issue becomes especially noticable on RWD vehicles. In real life (and other racing sims) when a vehicles tires break traction due to power over at WOT the RPM of the engine will increase rapidly as the vehicles ceases to accelerate.. In Dirt Rally this is not the case.  The game engine is not allowing the tires to break free and spin properly free of load.", "..RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained..", more on this topic),
  • Too good engine brake, too smal braking distance ("It is possible to engine brake using gears in real life. But, I think Codemasters might have overdone this in the game...", "All you do is downshift before the corner and the engine slows the car. The moment I hit the brakes I start to lose time on the stages...", "The gravel might have a tad too much friction. The cars slow down too much while you just let go off the throttle. Almost like you are applying some brakes..", some examples, real/game, quattro),
  • Too much grip on the monte carlo ("Monte Carlo is totally off, it feels like there is no grip change, dry tarmac all over the place: With everything turned off in the driver assistance,  It still is nearly impossible to powerslide a good old Gr.4 or Rwd Gr.A ... which with about 250 bhp or more is  a real shame - and for me takes the fun away -.  At the moment, you can just drive them like 4wd cars, even when it snows (so the road should be wet..)..I think the change of  grip should be a lot stronger when you hit snow or ice, the cars should just ... lose grip....  wag their tails -still for rwd's-..." some examples: loeb, ogier),
  • Replay telemetry ( "Watching replays is great way to learn from better drivers than us. However You could get even more from a footage if telemetry was included showing speed, gear, throttle and brake play (analogue axis display when appropate) and clutch work, on top of handbrake indicator. G- metter would be also nice.." more on this topic.),
  • Selectable tyres, tyre wear ("Tyres strategy plays major role in rallying, especially in Monte Carlo. Sometimes that means compromise, sometimes that means risk. If tire wear is not present at the moment, we should get it, so tire conservation comes into play as well on longer legs. Whatever the circumstances tyre choice is a must in rally game." more on this topic.),
  • Not enought mass and suspension movement (inertia and mass control etc) ( example, "Weight distribution is non existent at the moment (as is any kind of inertia). Left foot works well in FWD, but AWD doesn't benefit from it at all..." i think this is the result of to high grip value,bad tire spin modeling and too good engine brake).

Edit 04.06: added "Proper steering degrees" to the list, deleted more setup option (I didn't know abou that, btw nice work codies !),
Edit 05.06: changed "No weight controll, no inertia" to "Not enought mass and suspension movement" and "New tire spin modeling" to "Proper modelling of tire spin".
Edit 17.06: deleted "FBB improvments" and "Proper steering degrees" from the list!

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Good list. We already have more setup option tho trough the advanced setup. There is also wheel damage that you can repair but I don't know if thats the tires or rims or bearings or whatever.

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It would be awesome to see devs opinion about all this topics ("Too much grip", "Does the game have too much grip", "Proper tyre spin model" etc), our suggestion and ideas for the physic, like that was in Assetto Corsa forum or Project Cars. 

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First, ive been playing this game and i think is reaching the level of  Richard Burns Rally or colin mcrae rally (which is quite impressive already), but still have some "flaws". Please Developers take into account this list of  suggestions, i know for a fact that this list goes accordingly with the general opinion of the community of this game.
Everybody who agrees with this list, please leave a comment supporting this list of  modifications, to highlight this thread in this forum.

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.PiotrAS191 said:
Lot of guys are posting the new topics about their physic ideas and problems,  and I'd like to collect our suggestion and create a list of them!

If you have some ideas about physic or the list, send my message or comment this discussion!

The list:
  • FBB improvments (This is the main issue, but I know the devs are working on this)
  • Grip improvment, too much grip (At the begining i would like to say, i dont want to make it like ice, just needs to be brought down a tad imo. The back end is almost totally planted and overall it could be a little looser.  more on this and this topics(I recomend you to read this topics), and some real vs game examples)
  • New tire spin modeling ("Currently in game there is rudimentary traction control being applied to traction loss (even with TC turned off) This issue becomes especially noticable on RWD vehicles. In real life (and other racing sims) when a vehicles tires break traction due to power over at WOT the RPM of the engine will increase rapidly as the vehicles ceases to accelerate.. In Dirt Rally this is not the case.  The game engine is not allowing the tires to break free and spin properly free of load.", "..RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained..", more on this topic),
  • Too good engine brake, and too smal braking distance ("It is possible to engine brake using gears in real life. But, I think Codemasters might have overdone this in the game...", "All you do is downshift before the corner and the engine slows the car. The moment I hit the brakes I start to lose time on the stages...", "The gravel might have a tad too much friction. The cars slow down too much while you just let go off the throttle. Almost like you are applying some brakes..", some examples, real/game, quattro),
  • Too much grip on the monte carlo ("Monte Carlo is totally off, it feels like there is no grip change, dry tarmac all over the place: With everything turned off in the driver assistance,  It still is nearly impossible to powerslide a good old Gr.4 or Rwd Gr.A ... which with about 250 bhp or more is  a real shame - and for me takes the fun away -.  At the moment, you can just drive them like 4wd cars, even when it snows (so the road should be wet..)..I think the change of  grip should be a lot stronger when you hit snow or ice, the cars should just ... lose grip....  wag their tails -still for rwd's-..." some examples: loeb, ogier),
  • Replay telemetry ( "Watching replays is great way to learn from better drivers than us. However You could get even more from a footage if telemetry was included showing speed, gear, throttle and brake play (analogue axis display when appropate) and clutch work, on top of handbrake indicator. G- metter would be also nice.." more on this topic.),
  • Selectable tyres, tyre wear ("Tyres strategy plays major role in rallying, especially in Monte Carlo. Sometimes that means compromise, sometimes that means risk. If tire wear is not present at the moment, we should get it, so tire conservation comes into play as well on longer legs. Whatever the circumstances tyre choice is a must in rally game." more on this topic.),
  • More setup options (Like: gears ratios should be gear by gear  with final drive & diff setting setting of their own, same goes for steering ratios, tyre compounds & types, springs dampers, roll bars, toe in toe out, camber plus & minus, castors setting, brake balance etc. ).
  • No weight controll, no inertia (example, "Weight distribution is non existent at the moment (as is any kind of inertia). Left foot works well in FWD, but AWD doesn't benefit from it at all..." i think this is the result of to high grip value,bad tire spin modeling and too good engine brake).
Totally agree with you!!

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Absolutely agree with the thread starter.
I just got this game and first impression was unfortunately not whoa. More like, sigh it's another codies rally game. Weird linear back tires grip and front tires that goes on rails. NOTE: have only tried RWD cars so far.
 Graphics aside this is not on the same level as the old but still vastly superior Richard Burns rally. 
Too bad because I REALLY LIKE the idea and car choices. It's still in early access so a lot can happen. I just worried that the issues can't be fixed with some tweaking. Tire model, weight transfer, inertia are the  fundamentals to get right.
Sorry for sounding so negative but I had got my hopes up and was really excited about this after reading all the fantastic previews. 

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Alwert said:
.PiotrAS191 said:
Lot of guys are posting the new topics about their physic ideas and problems,  and I'd like to collect our suggestion and create a list of them!

If you have some ideas about physic or the list, send my message or comment this discussion!

The list:
  • FBB improvments (This is the main issue, but I know the devs are working on this)
  • Grip improvment, too much grip (At the begining i would like to say, i dont want to make it like ice, just needs to be brought down a tad imo. The back end is almost totally planted and overall it could be a little looser.  more on this and this topics(I recomend you to read this topics), and some real vs game examples)
  • New tire spin modeling ("Currently in game there is rudimentary traction control being applied to traction loss (even with TC turned off) This issue becomes especially noticable on RWD vehicles. In real life (and other racing sims) when a vehicles tires break traction due to power over at WOT the RPM of the engine will increase rapidly as the vehicles ceases to accelerate.. In Dirt Rally this is not the case.  The game engine is not allowing the tires to break free and spin properly free of load.", "..RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained..", more on this topic),
  • Too good engine brake, and too smal braking distance ("It is possible to engine brake using gears in real life. But, I think Codemasters might have overdone this in the game...", "All you do is downshift before the corner and the engine slows the car. The moment I hit the brakes I start to lose time on the stages...", "The gravel might have a tad too much friction. The cars slow down too much while you just let go off the throttle. Almost like you are applying some brakes..", some examples, real/game, quattro),
  • Too much grip on the monte carlo ("Monte Carlo is totally off, it feels like there is no grip change, dry tarmac all over the place: With everything turned off in the driver assistance,  It still is nearly impossible to powerslide a good old Gr.4 or Rwd Gr.A ... which with about 250 bhp or more is  a real shame - and for me takes the fun away -.  At the moment, you can just drive them like 4wd cars, even when it snows (so the road should be wet..)..I think the change of  grip should be a lot stronger when you hit snow or ice, the cars should just ... lose grip....  wag their tails -still for rwd's-..." some examples: loeb, ogier),
  • Replay telemetry ( "Watching replays is great way to learn from better drivers than us. However You could get even more from a footage if telemetry was included showing speed, gear, throttle and brake play (analogue axis display when appropate) and clutch work, on top of handbrake indicator. G- metter would be also nice.." more on this topic.),
  • Selectable tyres, tyre wear ("Tyres strategy plays major role in rallying, especially in Monte Carlo. Sometimes that means compromise, sometimes that means risk. If tire wear is not present at the moment, we should get it, so tire conservation comes into play as well on longer legs. Whatever the circumstances tyre choice is a must in rally game." more on this topic.),
  • More setup options (Like: gears ratios should be gear by gear  with final drive & diff setting setting of their own, same goes for steering ratios, tyre compounds & types, springs dampers, roll bars, toe in toe out, camber plus & minus, castors setting, brake balance etc. ).
  • No weight controll, no inertia (example, "Weight distribution is non existent at the moment (as is any kind of inertia). Left foot works well in FWD, but AWD doesn't benefit from it at all..." i think this is the result of to high grip value,bad tire spin modeling and too good engine brake).
Totally agree with you!!
Very nice list. I've already asked for official response regarding all that issues more than once.

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yup yup ........................please implement weight transfer and inertia................................fix grip..................................and please if we drop the clutch give us the wheelspin that would happen in real life on gravel

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My honest insights (i have no expertise in any of these areas, so it's just my opinion)
  • FFB improvements   -Much needed, but it's being worked at, so not to worry now anymore.
  • Grip improvement, too much grip   -I don't think things are this simple, i think they need to work more on the terrain physics than just reduce general grip on the tyres, car tyres are behaving realistically, i just feel something is impeding the tyres to loose traction somehow, too much surface friction would cause this.
  • New tire spin modeling   -This doesn't make any sense, tyre spin modeling would mean you need to model it, but you don't, you "just" model the tyres physics properly and tyre spin will happen when it receives too much power for it to handle.   "..RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained.." ...and this do happen in game already, easily dismissed as a problem when you go over a jump and the revs go up to the rev limiter, although differential and transmission settings will still influence this a lot, fixing the "too much grip" problem will make the RPM rise due to traction loss way more noticeable. 
  • Too good engine brake, and too small braking distance   -Maybe also related to the "too much grip" issue, and i think the brakes are a bit underpowered, in fact, none of these problems are present in Pikes Peak w/ Hillclimb cars, and since you can only drive there with these specific cars, i can't assume if the problem is in the cars physics or track terrain physics
  • Too much grip on the Monte Carlo    -Yes, i do agree with this one, tarmac is quite good, but needs to have less friction, now the ice/snow is a curious thing in this game, you loose quite some grip and have massive understeer, but you don't loose much traction, could be too much surface friction and too low surface general grip (feels like it's quite into the extremes on both sides)
  • Replay telemetry    -Not really useful to me, this would be very useful to modding and real drivers/teams i guess, will not comment any further here.
  • Selectable tyres, tyre wear   -Agreed, it's a must have in a game like this, and it will benefit a lot from the changeable weather settings, and would make surface type differences more noticeable, it's a win-win situation.
  • More setup options   -I just want to choose tyre compound and have steering related settings (caster and steering lock), the rest i think it's already adjustable in the game if you have the advanced setup upgrade in career mode.
  • No weight control, no inertia   -Another pointed "issue" that doesn't make much sense, saying you have "No inertia" is a quite stupid thing to say when you can easily see that the body moves around the suspension, i agree that it's not enough movement, i think if i could somehow ramp up the car body inertia values by 15-25% would be a great starting point to see if this make weight transfer more natural/intuitive or not.

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I think rbr had it almost right with the grip level. The way u were able to slide the car on the braking was very close to the real thing

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Advanced setup is already in the game. Just press enter when you're on the slider and you get more options.

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If you want RBR go and play RBR. As I've said before, and will keep saying until people understand this. THIS IS NOT RICHARD BURNS RALLY. This is DiRT Rally, it's not trying to be RBR 2 or anything else, it's trying to be DiRT Rally. Stop comparing the 2 games. 

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If you want RBR go and play RBR. As I've said before, and will keep saying until people understand this. THIS IS NOT RICHARD BURNS RALLY. This is DiRT Rally, it's not trying to be RBR 2 or anything else, it's trying to be DiRT Rally. Stop comparing the 2 games. 

Maybe folks just want "Dirt Rally" to have a more detailed/realistic/in-depth physics engine applied to it just as RBR has.  Nothing wrong with comparing the 2 games as RBR was king for so many years.  In fact let's hope Dirt Rally surpasses RBR in ALL aspects not just graphics and sound design.

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If you want RBR go and play RBR. As I've said before, and will keep saying until people understand this. THIS IS NOT RICHARD BURNS RALLY. This is DiRT Rally, it's not trying to be RBR 2 or anything else, it's trying to be DiRT Rally. Stop comparing the 2 games. 
Where on my list its written I want RBR 2 ??
   
rvprice123 - said the grip level on richard burns rally is close to real.. Not  that he want another rbr!  

We want SIMULATOR  not anothe arcade and not another Richard Burns Rally!
We are comparing it to the RBR, beacuse it was the best rally simulator (esspecially with mods)! 

In Dirt Rally there are some elements in the physics, which are not perfect and we want they to change them, to do a better rally simulator!

BTW: Why you don't like RBR ? Original physic is little sh-t, compare to the mods like ngp, but i that time it was the best rally sim !
In the making of this game, helped them Richard Burns, so the game was really good, but not perfect, esspecialy on lower speeds and the grip level was little too low.. In mods like NGP or RBR Real Physic, helped them real rally teams with tellemtry and the data from rally cars, with making this mods took part many real rally drivers! When I first drove a rally car, I was driving like on RBR, this game helped my a lot, I've been using mass control and left foot braking, just like on this game. I've learned from this game a lot, my reactions to the sliding and other things compared to the other people who never have been riding on simulator was a lot faster and better! 

BTW2: Check out some new edits on the list.

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.PiotrAS191 said:
Lot of guys are posting the new topics about their physic ideas and problems,  and I'd like to collect our suggestion and create a list of them!

If you have some ideas about physic or the list, send my message or comment this discussion!

The list:
  • FBB improvments (This is the main issue, but I know the devs are working on this)
  • Grip improvment, too much grip (At the begining i would like to say, i dont want to make it like ice, just needs to be brought down a tad imo. The back end is almost totally planted and overall it could be a little looser.  more on this and this topics(I recomend you to read this topics), and some real vs game examples)
  • New tire spin modeling ("Currently in game there is rudimentary traction control being applied to traction loss (even with TC turned off) This issue becomes especially noticable on RWD vehicles. In real life (and other racing sims) when a vehicles tires break traction due to power over at WOT the RPM of the engine will increase rapidly as the vehicles ceases to accelerate.. In Dirt Rally this is not the case.  The game engine is not allowing the tires to break free and spin properly free of load.", "..RPM's rise when traction is broken...engine does not bog down until traction is regained..", more on this topic),
  • Too good engine brake, and too smal braking distance ("It is possible to engine brake using gears in real life. But, I think Codemasters might have overdone this in the game...", "All you do is downshift before the corner and the engine slows the car. The moment I hit the brakes I start to lose time on the stages...", "The gravel might have a tad too much friction. The cars slow down too much while you just let go off the throttle. Almost like you are applying some brakes..", some examples, real/game, quattro),
  • Too much grip on the monte carlo ("Monte Carlo is totally off, it feels like there is no grip change, dry tarmac all over the place: With everything turned off in the driver assistance,  It still is nearly impossible to powerslide a good old Gr.4 or Rwd Gr.A ... which with about 250 bhp or more is  a real shame - and for me takes the fun away -.  At the moment, you can just drive them like 4wd cars, even when it snows (so the road should be wet..)..I think the change of  grip should be a lot stronger when you hit snow or ice, the cars should just ... lose grip....  wag their tails -still for rwd's-..." some examples: loeb, ogier),
  • Replay telemetry ( "Watching replays is great way to learn from better drivers than us. However You could get even more from a footage if telemetry was included showing speed, gear, throttle and brake play (analogue axis display when appropate) and clutch work, on top of handbrake indicator. G- metter would be also nice.." more on this topic.),
  • Selectable tyres, tyre wear ("Tyres strategy plays major role in rallying, especially in Monte Carlo. Sometimes that means compromise, sometimes that means risk. If tire wear is not present at the moment, we should get it, so tire conservation comes into play as well on longer legs. Whatever the circumstances tyre choice is a must in rally game." more on this topic.),
  • More setup options (Like: gears ratios should be gear by gear  with final drive & diff setting setting of their own, same goes for steering ratios, tyre compounds & types, springs dampers, roll bars, toe in toe out, camber plus & minus, castors setting, brake balance etc. ).
  • No weight controll, no inertia (example, "Weight distribution is non existent at the moment (as is any kind of inertia). Left foot works well in FWD, but AWD doesn't benefit from it at all..." i think this is the result of to high grip value,bad tire spin modeling and too good engine brake).
Totally agree with you!!

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Spot on suggestions to the physics model,  agree completely!  You should post it in the suggestion box so the devs see it:

http://forums.codemasters.com/categories/suggestion-box

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It would be nice if devs took a look at their physics engine and figured out what the cause of these silly flips/barrel rolls are. Also probably about 9 times out of 10 if you roll the car it's going to wind up on it's wheels.

As for replay telemetry. It would be nice, but it would serve it's purpose a whole lot better if replays were in a more manageable format to begin with. You know, a small file that could be uploaded automatically by the game, or easily shared manually. Not sure why people seem quite content with the current replay system.

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Don't quote on this but I believe in one of the codemasters pike peak videos. It was said that the aero had not been implemented yet or not properly implemented & that should  put a stop to the peculiar physics in the air and also help the driving  physics also.  However I'm not sure if this has been put in game yet or not?

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