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Codemasters sim or Arcade?

CODEMASTERS WHAT THE CUSTOMER WANTS.   

112 members have voted

  1. 1. YOU WANT F1 GAME TO BE SIM, ARCADE OR SIMCADE YOUR CHOICE! 😊



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@dwin20
 hey I actually agree with you but the race experience presented I was talking about is the one marketed at the paying customers, the casuals if you like. The casual gets what is advertised perfectly. If the race experience was advertised as accurate to REAL LIFE the game would tank. We both know what the REAL experience would actually be like so if the game was sold to us and other simmers as the real life experience we'd be pretty disappointed with what we got. Lots of flash but nothing in the pan lol.

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2 hours ago, MrDeap said:

Here an example:

 

I don't think anyone is going to argue that codemasters f1 games are not visually accurate. What they miss compared is accurate physics, car setup or tyre simulation and ffb. Didn't a current driver say that using medium traction control was more like the real throttle application and grip than without? This is because codemasters believe that difficult equals simulation, which is simply untrue.

The tyre simulation is an interesting point because again visually it looks credible but I very much doubt it is a simulation model akin to that used in the sims often quoted. Camber is used primarily in racecar setup to equalise the tyre temps across the inner, middle and outer parts of the tyre. Whilst camber and tyre temps are in codemasters game, it is a gross simplification, it cannot be seriously called a simulation model!

Also is ffb, again I doubt that it is is simulated model of the cars mass/downforce and tyre/suspension interacting with the steering and the track surface as in the true sim games. Turning at 60kph feels the same as turning at 160kph in codemasters games, in the sims they feel different due to tyre flex and downforce etc. Not to mention how suspension geometry effects the feel at the steering wheel.

The video also shows an imaginary car from ams, and I think the codemasters game footage was "cherry picked" for its accuracy, we all know how inaccurate the downforce levels are in the 19 game. I very much doubt if you chose race footage of Barcelona and put it against the 19 game you could get the same level of agreement.

Opinions no doubt, but as sloppysmusic says, the codemasters games are a simulation of a race series in a calendar year, not a simulation of driving race cars on a track!

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11 hours ago, yrek150 said:

About handling model... I have an idea - release standard "simcade" version, and option to change physics to simulation as dlc. It would be nice to anyone - of someone wants arcade - they have it now, sim? you have dlc. I think that would be a great option.

I said that (identical thing) in some of my posts.. If Codemasters introduce the "Assetto Corsa" gameplay in a realistic option available on the game and if they too can introduce the "Iracing" Penalty System the game stays perfect.. Everyone happy and everyone can enjoy the entire game as they wish.. Where they wish.. Simple like that 

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On 4/21/2020 at 7:17 PM, ChasteWand said:

Monaco is not a track that eats tyres so here is more evidence that, even when codemasters attempt "simulation", they fail. Let alone your other points. Sometimes I feel stupid even to entertain the possibility codemasters could prove a decent sim! 😁

Well i am here to try to help everyone including Codemasters too.. I am a F1 Fanatic since my 5 years old (currently i have 32).. I had the opoortunity to race some racing cars in trackdays and some events too.. We have the real proov that Codemasters can do and they done that properly in Dirt Rally séries.. So they know how to make a decent Sim game.. And in my opinion its too Simple.. They / we already have a amazing F1 game.. If they put the "Assetto Corsa" gameplay sensation of the car /behaviour /feeling in driving / physics etc etc this F1 Titles stays perfect in my opinion.. Its what is missing on this F1 series.. 

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8 hours ago, MrDeap said:

Here an example:

 

This is the most confusing video I've probably watched in my entire life...

First of all it's not fun to call people pathetic nerds for disagreeing with you and it's definitely not something you would want to say before trying to argue how F1 games are supposedly more accurate. It's also just weird comparison in itself. I don't think the speed compared to real life cars is what most care about, but how the car and everything around it feels. I picked rF2 as my game because the rF games have always felt to me like the game could handle whatever is thrown at it without looking clunky (though the entire game is clunky!)

I use this example over and over again as we have a limit on how many things we can upload that won't get affected by linking the same attachment over again. The clip is called smooth.mp4 and demonstrates how sometimes you don't need more serious damage.

Also obviously what if you'd be a quicker driver? Then it wouldn't be accurate anymore...? I'm still confused 😁

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Rfactor has more complexity in the calculation, but the more formula you input, the more it is difficult to get that accuracy, even down to the authenticity of the driving experience.

Players act like x game is better than the other. Even "The CREW" simulate suspension geometry.

I have a lot of experience in AC(ACC have same issue) & I can share you that trail braking is so wrong to the point to call it arcade. The car understeer so much that you have to turn the steering wheel before even releasing the brake pedal in order to be able to trailbrake. The sequence you interact with the brake & turn the steering is reversed. When you brake mid corner, you basically have to turn in while applying brake pressure mid corner.

As far as I look at telemetry, to be fast in simracing, you have to bounce the deceleration as hard as the physic allow you at the apex.

Listen to what Jacques Villeneuve tells you about bad habits at the end, but those bad habits is what make you fast in videogame in a nutshell.


The worst part of it... If you try to bounce the deceleration in GRID Autosport like on those reputable sim titles, you spin.

You know I like racing game, but people overbloat so much the realism that it's disgusting. 

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2 hours ago, MrDeap said:

Players act like x game is better than the other. Even "The CREW" simulate suspension geometry.

Well that's my problem with the video! 🙂 

He's saying that Codies F1 games are better because when he played the game it looked more similiar to a real life hotlap, while also calling others "pathetic nerds"

image.png

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I see nothing wrong in it, because it's a fact.

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8 hours ago, CarlosSantos87 said:

Well i am here to try to help everyone including Codemasters too.. I am a F1 Fanatic since my 5 years old (currently i have 32).. I had the opoortunity to race some racing cars in trackdays and some events too.. We have the real proov that Codemasters can do and they done that properly in Dirt Rally séries.. So they know how to make a decent Sim game.. And in my opinion its too Simple.. They / we already have a amazing F1 game.. If they put the "Assetto Corsa" gameplay sensation of the car /behaviour /feeling in driving / physics etc etc this F1 Titles stays perfect in my opinion.. Its what is missing on this F1 series.. 

This is getting heated! 😁

Sounds like we have similar experiences in life but I got another 50% of lived experience on you...

For the main part it would seem we agree, I would love for the f1 series to be more like Asetto Corsa in its driving experience. However in modern times at Monaco I have never heard a driver complain about his front left tyre. More often than not it's the rears that go first.

The Dirt series is pretty good but suffers in, my opinion, from some very frustrating level design. Obstacles are almost always put in the most difficult places, which makes the game maddening. The Dirt and F1 games are made at different studios (as far as I'm aware), though the do share the same game engine.

Possibly a controversial statement, WRC8 is better than Dirt 2. WRC8 is a little overly grippy in comparison but the level design and career are way better than in Dirt 2. It is true that Dirt has the better graphics and frame rate (on consoles at least). Codemasters should be ashamed of the sever issues that plague racenet and the career in Dirt 2. Why the career is online is frankly beyond comprehension.

If you haven't tried WRC8 and your on PC you should give it a go...

 

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There is a similiar thread on the DR2.0 forums

 

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It's very funny when people write how much Onogoski is a troll(according to the aka sim racing toxic community). When almost everything he point out are simply useful documentation & more esport friendly than everything else out there. 

Racing games are getting more & more realistic, but still are games at the moment. What is misleading & utterly toxic is when someone claim a game is more than a game & makes you suddenly different & special. 

You could play Initial D Arcade Stage or Rfactor, or whatever. You will end up to relearn the same way in the real thing anyway.

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@up100 I don't know how you could even watch that 'comparison' video. Comparing speed and lines has nothing to do with accurate handling physics! Plus way worse than that was that he had to pause the video like every second or even half second to talk some more garbage. I made it through just over 2 and half minutes before I instinctively stabbed the STOP button. He still hadnt got around the second corner!! Shown the whole lap real time let us get a feel for it THEN start breaking it down corner by corner if you must. Even better just don't lol. At least let me watch something moving on screen instead of freezing the action alll the time. This wasn't a video it was a sideshow... 🙄📹🤣

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8 hours ago, ChasteWand said:

This is getting heated! 😁

Sounds like we have similar experiences in life but I got another 50% of lived experience on you...

For the main part it would seem we agree, I would love for the f1 series to be more like Asetto Corsa in its driving experience. However in modern times at Monaco I have never heard a driver complain about his front left tyre. More often than not it's the rears that go first.

The Dirt series is pretty good but suffers in, my opinion, from some very frustrating level design. Obstacles are almost always put in the most difficult places, which makes the game maddening. The Dirt and F1 games are made at different studios (as far as I'm aware), though the do share the same game engine.

Possibly a controversial statement, WRC8 is better than Dirt 2. WRC8 is a little overly grippy in comparison but the level design and career are way better than in Dirt 2. It is true that Dirt has the better graphics and frame rate (on consoles at least). Codemasters should be ashamed of the sever issues that plague racenet and the career in Dirt 2. Why the career is online is frankly beyond comprehension.

If you haven't tried WRC8 and your on PC you should give it a go...

 

Exactly mate.. You have entire reason.. You are absoulutelly right.. In Mónaco its already well possible to make only One pit stop because isn t too agressive for the tyres like some anothers circuits are.. And if the drivers struggle they start struggling 1st with rear and some a lot of time After the fronts starts ending.. I agreed with you.. Assetto Corsa its the King of handling and imersion feeling of the car for Who races knows how realístic and close to real life is 😃😃

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2 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

@up100 I don't know how you could even watch that 'comparison' video. Comparing speed and lines has nothing to do with accurate handling physics! Plus way worse than that was that he had to pause the video like every second or even half second to talk some more garbage. I made it through just over 2 and half minutes before I instinctively stabbed the STOP button. He still hadnt got around the second corner!! Shown the whole lap real time let us get a feel for it THEN start breaking it down corner by corner if you must. Even better just don't lol. At least let me watch something moving on screen instead of freezing the action alll the time. This wasn't a video it was a sideshow... 🙄📹🤣

Exactly mate.. You talk in One biggest point.. Lap times its unrelevant here.. What we are all talking about its Just about the imersion/feeling/handling model of different games /sims available.. I would love it if Codemasters for having the oficial licence of Formula One Titles i love what they done and what we have today.. But if they put now the "Assetto Corsa" gameplay style /imersion /driving sensation etc etc.. The game doesn t need anything more and they make a perfect and the bestest F1 game ever of all the times.. I Don t doubt about it 

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Posted (edited)

If they would even begin with online lobbies stabilisation, and SPLIT RANKED lobbies for assist and non assist users, would be a huge step forward and would make me even consider going for it. 
 

but since online has never been something important to CM and just throws everyone in 1 lobby, not caring about the advantages people with assists have in so many ways. 
 

i decided to wait for a loooong time before even thinking of buying it. When it's like 5 bucks or so.

 

more than that isn't worth my money i think because of the quality beeing horrendous.

 

i don't care about pretty clouds, or a my team, or that ********. I want to be heard, and shown that they for ONCE do something with critisism, especially now the series is also beeing destroyed by real f1 drivers. I care about beeing able to race in a stable online lobby, without assist abusing people who use it as a form of cheating (especially when youre on wheel) just to believe and think they are fast and good. But hey how can you call it cheating when CM gives them all the tools to give them a fake feeling of what FAST really is.

 

and those people are all online with their so called "master" SKILL! There's no skill involved in using assists and people who use them shouldn't be even able to get 1 skill point whatsoever. 
 

you want ranked lobby? Fine, system turns assists off automatically. You want skill points? You have to earn them with actually showing SKILL.

Else the term SKILL points is USELESS AND WORTHLESS! Like it is now. All those so called masters. Don't make me laugh

Edited by AlexTT
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Posted (edited)

Interesting exchange!

With that I thought I would post this video called "How Realistic is Sim Racing?"

This was made by racing driver and coach - Scott Mansell

 

 

 

Edited by dwin20

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1 hour ago, AlexTT said:

and those people are all online with their so called "master" SKILL! There's no skill involved in using assists and people who use them shouldn't be even able to get 1 skill point whatsoever
  

I do agree with most of what you see but you're being a bit harsh on the beginners/learners. We were learners once and the first half of my f12017 career was done with medium fc and abs until it got so boring and repetitive I turned them off then the whole game came alive.

I definitely agree that NOT using assists should either get your more points faster or there should be a cap on points learned with assists say to bronze, then to get silver and gold you need to remove them all.

The big problem here and its a HUGE one is that the last 10 years in gaming has seen a huge increase in gamers who play games initially for some fun but then ONLY play to get trophies, achievements and the totally devalued PLATINUM awards. If you research game guides and tips these days you don't get guides and tips you get CHEATS. The fastest and easiest ways to get these (worthless except for bragging rights) so called achievements. It's a major reason why you get so many dodgy people in lobbies. They are either there to win at ANY cost to get a trophy or they are just adding to their race counts so they will mess around to make it more fun for them or drop out as soon as the race starts. So the problem with getting skill points changed to award actually ummm skill is that the majority of players, the casuals, will just quit and play something else. SOME might stick it out and learn no assists and get really good and appreciate that they HAD to turn assist off but most will say the games just to hard and not fair on gamers.

So yeh it would be nice if us machine heads got our own trophies but nah it ain't gonna happen mate. The moment you put a trophy, achievement or performance goal in game these days EVERYONE wants it.

Your best bet would be to beg Codies to add a multiplyer into the game so that the less assists you use the faster you earn points. This way everyone can still put the hours in and max out without having to 'get gud'. So you might get 1 point every lap of racing with every assist on and each one you turn off gets you 2 then 3 etc. Of course I count tcam as an assist plus the racing line lol.

I have only 2 platinum games in my Steam collection of around 400 games. I don't know the 2nd one (shows how much I care haha) but the first was in Xcom Enemy Unknown. They was a total *******to get and it was really ******* hard. I HAD to become an expert in strategy and know the games every mechanic to do that. No workarounds, no cheats, no short cuts. I'm damn proud of it too. Impossible Ironman. 😎

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On 4/27/2020 at 9:05 PM, sloppysmusic said:

Half good points but I wouldn't call iracing, assetto corsa, rfactor or project cars 2 obscure bug ridden messes! They just don't have official F1 cars is all. The open wheel racing is actually phenomenonal!

Only 2 of those above have physics that could be classed a realistic simulation, and if you don't think those two are bug ridden messes, you haven't played them enough

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On 4/27/2020 at 9:08 PM, MrDeap said:

Almost all current racing or car games are simulators. None of them including iracing, rfactor, acc use real value. The only difference is the amount of simulation value built within the game.

Some other game may have super advanced simulation value, but drive nothing like the real thing. That's why it's better not to look for the word simulation, but rather authentic driving experience.

Wow, thanks for showing that you really do not have any idea what rf2 tyre model and physics model is capable of, and how they are made. 

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11 minutes ago, pachedupdemon said:

Only 2 of those above have physics that could be classed a realistic simulation, and if you don't think those two are bug ridden messes, you haven't played them enough

Project Cars 2 is NOT a bug ridden mess. having completed every race and challenge and tuned about 100 cars including one in every class I know every bug and fault and they havent stopped me having a great time and making videos and writing articles to help people with career. Bugs in that for sure but only takes a search and you're good.

Seeing as Codies own SMS now I;m fine sharing a link. Would someone spend THIS much trouble on a bug ridden mess? Nope. The first game yes for sure a nightmare...\

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62938-Sloppy-s-Fast-Stable-and-Fun-Career-Tunes-(G29)

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3 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

Project Cars 2 is NOT a bug ridden mess. having completed every race and challenge and tuned about 100 cars including one in every class I know every bug and fault and they havent stopped me having a great time and making videos and writing articles to help people with career. Bugs in that for sure but only takes a search and you're good.

Seeing as Codies own SMS now I;m fine sharing a link. Would someone spend THIS much trouble on a bug ridden mess? Nope. The first game yes for sure a nightmare...\

http://forum.projectcarsgame.com/showthread.php?62938-Sloppy-s-Fast-Stable-and-Fun-Career-Tunes-(G29)

Project cars 2 is no simulator

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4 hours ago, pachedupdemon said:

Wow, thanks for showing that you really do not have any idea what rf2 tyre model and physics model is capable of, and how they are made. 

Thanks for showing me that you're toxic. Did you not watch the youtube video with Villeneuve & Button on RF2? 

 

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, MrDeap said:

Thanks for showing me that you're toxic. Did you not watch the youtube video with Villeneuve & Button on RF2? 

 

I watched it and I'm confused by what you're trying to point out with it...

I think you actually got the wrong idea of the "bad habits". Most likely he means something like how everything can't be 100% simulated so your practice in a simulator may actually differ from real life due to tiny differences like grip differences or that the game simulates you hitting a kerb in a bit different way etc.

The context was also: Villeneuve only did a few laps in simulators in 1996 to learn the track because the simulator would give him bad habits.

rFpro (one of the only simulators we know motorsport teams using) was only started in 2007. 

Edited by UP100
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1 minute ago, UP100 said:

I watched it and I'm confused by what you're trying to point out with it...

I think you actually got the wrong idea of the "bad habits". Most likely he means something like how everything can't be 100% simulated so your practice in a simulator may actually differ from real life due to tiny differences like grip differences or that the game simulates you hitting a kerb in a bit different way etc.

Also he mentioned rF1 and mods so I guess those could affect his opinion a bit 😁

Those are the bad habits



https://racer.com/2020/04/02/esports-bringing-fun-and-frustration-for-indycar-drivers/
“I remember my first sim test this year; I spent the first three hours just trying to get the tire model right before we did any testing,” he added. “That’s the level of realism you’re dealing with. Then you start on something like this with iRacing, that is a real game, where you need to learn the tricks to cheat it. It’s interesting, but also uninteresting to me.

“It’s like driving a version of the real thing, but it’s more of an impression than anything real, and it’s nothing like the actual sims we use. This is a bunch of drivers training to be their best at iRacing, really, instead of it being IndyCar drivers using their experience to carry over and go right to the front in sim racing. Two completely different worlds. I’d say this is fun, but only as long as I go in approaching it as something fun to do.”

My main issue with simracing is people try so hard to hide the bad habits & it end up not documented. Because of that... it's uncompetitive. Basically you approach a racing game to not have a fair race & that's why advertised racing simulator suck.

 

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1 hour ago, MrDeap said:

Those are the bad habits



https://racer.com/2020/04/02/esports-bringing-fun-and-frustration-for-indycar-drivers/
“I remember my first sim test this year; I spent the first three hours just trying to get the tire model right before we did any testing,” he added. “That’s the level of realism you’re dealing with. Then you start on something like this with iRacing, that is a real game, where you need to learn the tricks to cheat it. It’s interesting, but also uninteresting to me.

“It’s like driving a version of the real thing, but it’s more of an impression than anything real, and it’s nothing like the actual sims we use. This is a bunch of drivers training to be their best at iRacing, really, instead of it being IndyCar drivers using their experience to carry over and go right to the front in sim racing. Two completely different worlds. I’d say this is fun, but only as long as I go in approaching it as something fun to do.”

My main issue with simracing is people try so hard to hide the bad habits & it end up not documented. Because of that... it's uncompetitive. Basically you approach a racing game to not have a fair race & that's why advertised racing simulator suck.

 

Everyone or (most of People here) are confusing what we all are talking about.. I am saying in all my Posts i am speaking in "realism" compared against real life the fact only and only only only only the fact of driving /handling /sensation and behaviour of the car in current Codemasters Titles series.. I think if they put the "Assetto Corsa" immersion /driving sensation/behaviour of the car /etc etc.. This awesome F1 game from Codemasters Who by the way i am a greateast Fan of they.. If they put on next Games they not only improve a lot and they make too absoulutelly the greateast F1 game ever.. Because we have already a Amazing product amazing stuff.. Its absoulutelly possible to do that.. If small companies Does and they done with Assetto Corsa for example like Rfactor did as well too why the biggest One can t?? 

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