Anti-lag not present?

[Ardskoay 0]

I was driving the countryman WRC and noticed there were no gurgling anti lag sounds when you let off the throttle. I then noticed it dumps the boost every time you lift or shift. I have the understanding that modern top level cars don't dump boost and they use anti lag to keep boost up at all times. The chirping sound you hear when cars like SRTUSA cars lift is not a blowoff valve but compressor surge. The boosted air hits the turbo vanes and it makes that distinctive chirping sound.

So, the sound effects are secondary, but I would like to see anti lag present on cars that it should be on.

[dwkGravey 0]

Modern WRC cars don't chirp as much as they used to, and not as much as Open Class cars do. I haven't driven the Countryman in the game yet, so I didn't know it's missing that gurgling sound.

In any case, I would like more of whatever cars it takes, like '90s WRC cars or modern Open Class cars, to get more compressor surge in Dirt Rally.

[gfRally 449]

Ardskoay said:

I was driving the countryman WRC and noticed there were no gurgling anti lag sounds when you let off the throttle. I then noticed it dumps the boost every time you lift or shift. I have the understanding that modern top level cars don't dump boost and they use anti lag to keep boost up at all times. The chirping sound you hear when cars like SRTUSA cars lift is not a blowoff valve but compressor surge. The boosted air hits the turbo vanes and it makes that distinctive chirping sound.

So, the sound effects are secondary, but I would like to see anti lag present on cars that it should be on.

I guess here in america we still like the big obnoxious sounds from our inefficient muscle cars and the antilag/turbo flutter from our rally cars.  I guess across the pond they may be getting a little soft.   :wink: 

[tbtstt 2,387]

Ardskoay said:

The chirping sound you hear when cars like SRTUSA cars lift is not a blowoff valve but compressor surge. The boosted air hits the turbo vanes and it makes that distinctive chirping sound.

So, the sound effects are secondary, but I would like to see anti lag present on cars that it should be on.

Yep spot on, it's exactly the same principle as compressor surge in a turbine engine (except that sounds horrendous, not awesome!)

dwkGravey said:

Modern WRC cars don't chirp as much as they used to, and not as much as Open Class cars do. I haven't driven the Countryman in the game yet, so I didn't know it's missing that gurgling sound.

In any case, I would like more of whatever cars it takes, like '90s WRC cars or modern Open Class cars, to get more compressor surge in Dirt Rally.

Older rally cars (up to late Group A) used a throttle bypass (or jacked throttle) to keep the turbo spooled up. By keeping the throttle slightly open and altering the engine timing, the engine fires when the exhaust valves are open, detonating fuel in the exhaust manifold and keeping the turbo spooled up. This was effective, but it eliminates engine braking and it's incredibly harmful to various engine components, particularly the turbo and exhaust manifold.

Later rally cars (World Rally Car era onwards) switched to a fresh air system which vents directly in front on the turbo, these have been replaced with EGR based systems (which I don't know much about, as there seems to be very little information available). Fresh air systems still result in compressor surge, so you still get that chirping noise, EGR systems give the grumbling popping and banging sound.

Anti-lag would be an interesting thing for Codemasters to properly implement in game, especially if they give players control on the aggressiveness of the ALS. Spend too much time off the throttle with the ALS wound up and you'll cook your turbo!

[Madhun1967 51]

now ALS would be awesome in a sim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mickeeiemouse 37]

ALS should be fitted to all cars from 1994 onward, it should also be something that fails and needs repairing, not just a % on the turbo repair

MM

[Ardskoay 0]

Thanks for that info tbtstt. I did not know there were at least 3 different kinds of anti lag. I had heard of the type where there is a fuel injector in the exhaust manifold. At least I hope that is real because that is what I have thought for a few years now.

Hopefully, the different types can be modeled in game. At least in that the boost doesn't drop and it has the proper sound effect per car.

[gfRally 449]

tbtstt said:

Ardskoay said:

The chirping sound you hear when cars like SRTUSA cars lift is not a blowoff valve but compressor surge. The boosted air hits the turbo vanes and it makes that distinctive chirping sound.

So, the sound effects are secondary, but I would like to see anti lag present on cars that it should be on.

Yep spot on, it's exactly the same principle as compressor surge in a turbine engine (except that sounds horrendous, not awesome!)

dwkGravey said:

Modern WRC cars don't chirp as much as they used to, and not as much as Open Class cars do. I haven't driven the Countryman in the game yet, so I didn't know it's missing that gurgling sound.

In any case, I would like more of whatever cars it takes, like '90s WRC cars or modern Open Class cars, to get more compressor surge in Dirt Rally.

Older rally cars (up to late Group A) used a throttle bypass (or jacked throttle) to keep the turbo spooled up. By keeping the throttle slightly open and altering the engine timing, the engine fires when the exhaust valves are open, detonating fuel in the exhaust manifold and keeping the turbo spooled up. This was effective, but it eliminates engine braking and it's incredibly harmful to various engine components, particularly the turbo and exhaust manifold.

Later rally cars (World Rally Car era onwards) switched to a fresh air system which vents directly in front on the turbo, these have been replaced with EGR based systems (which I don't know much about, as there seems to be very little information available). Fresh air systems still result in compressor surge, so you still get that chirping noise, EGR systems give the grumbling popping and banging sound.

Anti-lag would be an interesting thing for Codemasters to properly implement in game, especially if they give players control on the aggressiveness of the ALS. Spend too much time off the throttle with the ALS wound up and you'll cook your turbo!

@tbtstt   You, Sir, are a well of knowledge!  Here in the US there is a emissions control system that uses the term EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) 

Wiki link here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation

It mentions the EGR Turbo setup, and Variable Geometry Turbo,  Garret being on of the suppliers which SRTUSA uses on their cars.  Perhaps they are using a EGR system.  


My understanding about the game is the engine turbo and many other parts are tied into the physics programming, the game engine calls for certain sounds to be used for different needs.  If they program in MORE antilag then you will hear it but only if the physics engine maths that antilag is working then the sound is played.  

What this means, is if one Team uses a certain setup (maybe ECU Programming) you hear more antilog and turbo surge, but another uses a different ECU setup all together.  It even depends on driving style, how much does one driver let off throttle than the other.   Two Fiesta R5s from two different teams can sound somewhat different. 

Ken Block even goes so far to tune his car to perform to his needs but also produce a lot of backfire (different from antilag) so his photographers can grab these enormous flames out the pipe, it fits his style, but it is also part of the engine tune.  

This is where a simulation can sometimes get in the way of atmosphere and emotion.  We may and probably drive differently than a 'Pro' the simulation will probably produce similar sounds to what we are used to hearing as a spectator from Pro driving the sim.  But many don't drive like them (most of us) and how we push the car is differently.  In reality they have fear of breaking the car or harming themselves, in a simulator we don't and push the cars beyond reality, so to say.  So the cars will sound different in our case.  

So where does this leave us and the point?  There needs to be a balance placed if possible to what we are used to/expect to hear (the emotion part I was talking about) and proper simulating the physics and car. 


Hope this wasn't too confusing.  

[tbtstt 2,387]

mickeeiemouse said:

ALS should be fitted to all cars from 1994 onward, it should also be something that fails and needs repairing, not just a % on the turbo repair

MM

I'm not sure when ALS was first implemented on rally cars. I think Toyota were the first to do it in the early 90's? The Group A field in '94 was pretty damn noisy though, so I assume everyone was running it by that point!

Ardskoay said:

Thanks for that info tbtstt. I did not know there were at least 3 different kinds of anti lag. I had heard of the type where there is a fuel injector in the exhaust manifold. At least I hope that is real because that is what I have thought for a few years now.

I'm not sure on the fuel injector in the exhaust manifold @Ardskoay . Early systems were developed to use an air bypass which ran into the exhaust manifold as an alternative to jacking the throttle, so when the throttle was lifted air would be directed there. Fuel is injected into the cylinder through the conventional fuel system, as that fuel (undetonated) exits the engine cylinder it is mixed with the bypass air in the exhaust manifold and then detonated as a consequence of the retarded ignition timing (as per the jacked throttle configuration). 

As soon as the throttle is pressed again the air bypass closes, the fuel delivery and ignition timing return to normal.

Subaru used a separate combustion chamber on the later WRCars, referred to as the "Rocket" system. See the silver cylinder to the left of the alternator?...



...that's the charge canister for the "Rocket" system.

gfRally said:

@tbtstt   You, Sir, are a well of knowledge!  Here in the US there is a emissions control system that uses the term EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) 

Wiki link here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas_recirculation

It mentions the EGR Turbo setup, and Variable Geometry Turbo,  Garret being on of the suppliers which SRTUSA uses on their cars.  Perhaps they are using a EGR system.  

Yeah, I recognise the term EGR with regards to conventional engines (a friend of mine had some major issues with his pick up truck due to the EGR valve, so I read up a bit then!), but I'm not sure how an EGR anti-lag system works. The SRT USA cars still "chirp" don't they? I believe that would imply that they using a fresh air system?

gfRally said:

Ken Block even goes so far to tune his car to perform to his needs but also produce a lot of backfire (different from antilag) so his photographers can grab these enormous flames out the pipe, it fits his style, but it is also part of the engine tune.

Yeah, that makes sense, the car is just mapped to overfuel itself on the overrun. Liam Doran has a similar setup with his rallycross car!

[gfRally 449]

tbtstt said:

mickeeiemouse said:

ALS should be fitted to all cars from 1994 onward, it should also be something that fails and needs repairing, not just a % on the turbo repair

MM

I'm not sure when ALS was first implemented on rally cars. I think Toyota were the first to do it in the early 90's? The Group A field in '94 was pretty damn noisy though, so I assume everyone was running it by that point!

Ardskoay said:

Thanks for that info tbtstt. I did not know there were at least 3 different kinds of anti lag. I had heard of the type where there is a fuel injector in the exhaust manifold. At least I hope that is real because that is what I have thought for a few years now.

I'm not sure on the fuel injector in the exhaust manifold @Ardskoay . Early systems were developed to use an air bypass which ran into the exhaust manifold as an alternative to jacking the throttle, so when the throttle was lifted air would be directed there. Fuel is injected into the cylinder through the conventional fuel system, as that fuel (undetonated) exits the engine cylinder it is mixed with the bypass air in the exhaust manifold and then detonated as a consequence of the retarded ignition timing (as per the jacked throttle configuration). 

As soon as the throttle is pressed again the air bypass closes, the fuel delivery and ignition timing return to normal.

Subaru used a separate combustion chamber on the later WRCars, referred to as the "Rocket" system. See the silver cylinder to the left of the alternator?...



...that's the charge canister for the "Rocket" system.

Gotta ask, what are the 2 blocks of wires in front of the intercooler?  Also interesting that they where using the top mount intercooler then.

I will have to investigate SRTUSAs setup, first time in years now that I am going to miss STPR this weekend, could have asked a mechanic.  

[tbtstt 2,387]

gfRally said:

tbtstt said:

mickeeiemouse said:

ALS should be fitted to all cars from 1994 onward, it should also be something that fails and needs repairing, not just a % on the turbo repair

MM

I'm not sure when ALS was first implemented on rally cars. I think Toyota were the first to do it in the early 90's? The Group A field in '94 was pretty damn noisy though, so I assume everyone was running it by that point!

Ardskoay said:

Thanks for that info tbtstt. I did not know there were at least 3 different kinds of anti lag. I had heard of the type where there is a fuel injector in the exhaust manifold. At least I hope that is real because that is what I have thought for a few years now.

I'm not sure on the fuel injector in the exhaust manifold @Ardskoay . Early systems were developed to use an air bypass which ran into the exhaust manifold as an alternative to jacking the throttle, so when the throttle was lifted air would be directed there. Fuel is injected into the cylinder through the conventional fuel system, as that fuel (undetonated) exits the engine cylinder it is mixed with the bypass air in the exhaust manifold and then detonated as a consequence of the retarded ignition timing (as per the jacked throttle configuration). 

As soon as the throttle is pressed again the air bypass closes, the fuel delivery and ignition timing return to normal.

Subaru used a separate combustion chamber on the later WRCars, referred to as the "Rocket" system. See the silver cylinder to the left of the alternator?...



...that's the charge canister for the "Rocket" system.

Gotta ask, what are the 2 blocks of wires in front of the intercooler?  Also interesting that they where using the top mount intercooler then.

I will have to investigate SRTUSAs setup, first time in years now that I am going to miss STPR this weekend, could have asked a mechanic.  

That's not a TMIC: it's the air filter!



I believe only the Group A used a TMIC in the conventional position. The S12 Impreza WRC had some of the cooling mounted horizontally...



...but it was a flawed design as every time the car went through water or dust it would take a pounding!


(Sorry, there are bigger pictures of this, but I can't find them off hand!)

The S12b WRC (and subsequently the S14) reverted back to a front mounted layout for all the cooling. 

Not sure exactly what the wiring is there, the latter Impreza WRC's all had wiring clustered up top. I assume there was some logic is sticking it all up top!

[Ardskoay 0]

I should be going to STPR on friday. Hopefully I can ask one of the mechanics. I am way too interested in things like this. This topic really has my mind going now.

[mesa 624]

While sounds are almost great in Dirt Rally, developers missed the antilag sounds.
Please Codemasters, implement it with its physics, and the game will be much better. 

[mickeeiemouse 37]

the ALS system on the toyota was an antilag valve  off the intercooler, that has 4 pipes going directly to the 4 ports of the exhaust manifold before the turbo, when the throttle is closed, the antilag valve opens,  and turbo pressure is  diverted to the exhaust manifold causing lots of popping hahaha.
the toyotas(celicas) also used charge coolers(water intercoolers) up until the corolla WRC

bit of nerd info there haha

[Madhun1967 51]

we need anti lag please !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gfRally 449]

mickeeiemouse said:

the ALS system on the toyota was an antilag valve  off the intercooler, that has 4 pipes going directly to the 4 ports of the exhaust manifold before the turbo, when the throttle is closed, the antilag valve opens,  and turbo pressure is  diverted to the exhaust manifold causing lots of popping hahaha.
the toyotas(celicas) also used charge coolers(water intercoolers) up until the corolla WRC

bit of nerd info there haha

Nerd?  Nah, nerds use computers...  Ummm yeah umm never mind 

[tbtstt 2,387]

Ardskoay said:

I should be going to STPR on friday. Hopefully I can ask one of the mechanics. I am way too interested in things like this. This topic really has my mind going now.

I'd be very interested to see what they say @Ardskoay , if they are willing to tell you about the rally car it would be interesting to ask if they use the the same ALS configuration in their rallycross cars as well.

[Ardskoay 0]

I didn't get much from them in parc expose. Then it started pouring rain so we didn't get to go to the service. But I was told it is ECU and spark based. I tried to get more info, but I couldn't tell if he didn't understand my questions or was trying to answer with as little info as possible. He did also say no fuel injector or air plumbing to the manifold.

[tbtstt 2,387]

Ardskoay said:

I didn't get much from them in parc expose. Then it started pouring rain so we didn't get to go to the service. But I was told it is ECU and spark based. I tried to get more info, but I couldn't tell if he didn't understand my questions or was trying to answer with as little info as possible. He did also say no fuel injector or air plumbing to the manifold.

Hmmm, sounds like something along the lines of the traditional jacked throttle method. Would figure as the Open Class regulations are broadly equivalent to Group A, perhaps fresh air/EGR systems are prohibited by the regulations? 

[gfRally 449]

tbtstt said:

Ardskoay said:

I didn't get much from them in parc expose. Then it started pouring rain so we didn't get to go to the service. But I was told it is ECU and spark based. I tried to get more info, but I couldn't tell if he didn't understand my questions or was trying to answer with as little info as possible. He did also say no fuel injector or air plumbing to the manifold.

Hmmm, sounds like something along the lines of the traditional jacked throttle method. Would figure as the Open Class regulations are broadly equivalent to Group A, perhaps fresh air/EGR systems are prohibited by the regulations? 

@tbtstt   You probably already looked here:  http://ra_2012.rally-america.com/info/RA_PRR_2015-print.pdf

It mentions antilag, but this may not be the "builders" guidebook, so it uses very generic terms.  

Under open class, antilag, regulations it stays this:

1. Anti-lag systems

   It is strongly recommended that forced induction anti-lag systems be capable of being turned-off without the driver/co-driver having to exit the passenger compartment to facilitate operation only on special stages.

a. The storage of boost (compressed air held at a pressure above what normally is in the inlet ducting) is not permitted. 

[tbtstt 2,387]

gfRally said:

a. The storage of boost (compressed air held at a pressure above what normally is in the inlet ducting) is not permitted. 

Ah, that's an interesting line. That rules out any sophisticated chamber setups like those used in the latter Impreza WRC's.