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Tarmac Handling: Spain vs Germany vs Monte Carlo

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So I think we can all agree the handling in Spain feels weird, but Germany and MC feel much better.

Is it because the physics are a little different there, or is it just because the road is more heavily cambered in Spain?

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The road surfaces being smoother/rougher probably plays into it too, and Monte being colder (theoretically).

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3 hours ago, ianism said:

So I think we can all agree the handling in Spain feels weird, but Germany and MC feel much better.

Is it because the physics are a little different there, or is it just because the road is more heavily cambered in Spain?

What is it according to you that makes the tarmac physics in Spain so weird?
I'm actually curious to know why people find it so weird? What is it exactly that makes it weird for you? The amount of grip or something else?

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, SRD_SimVansevenant said:

What is it according to you that makes the tarmac physics in Spain so weird?
I'm actually curious to know why people find it so weird? What is it exactly that makes it weird for you? The amount of grip or something else?

For me old cars and fwd cars mostly behave ok on tarmac, the biggest problems are with modern cars and cars with high downforce. You can't feel those forces, such cars should feel much more planted. The car starts sliding in a weird way when you lose grip sideways. Someone said it's a problem with lateral grip and I agree. It's a behaviour unlike any other sim out there. So when I tune in DR2, I try to make my cars as understeery as possible to avoid the weird tarmac oversteer effects. In my opinion Germany and Monte Carlo feel better because of the variable surface - rough tarmac in Germany and snow/ice in MC. 

Also, there is not enough feedback through the wheel when driving on tarmac.

Edited by danielofifi

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It is weird IMHO ...............and has been a complaint for a lot of us .I do not "feel" any lateral movement and feedback through my 300RS at all, when car moves in and out of those turns on smooth tarmac.Now compare that to feel in RR, AC or Automobilista, Rfactor etc , there is so much going on even in smooth asphalt driving.

I took an E30 last night in Raceroom for a spin on a A to B hillclimb track and oh wow .............what a tactile experience.Wish i could get that a rally car soon in a sim.

Its almost like the wheel goes numb.

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Posted (edited)

I think it is the same physics in Spain as in Germany.
But the nice long curves in Spain better expose the not quite realistic tarmac physics of a DR2. This makes this event boring.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxvbSJPB4go&t=443s

at 7:23 you can see Waldaufstieg (looks much more broken in reality)

 

Edited by PaulNbg
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SRD_SimVansevenant said:

What is it according to you that makes the tarmac physics in Spain so weird?
I'm actually curious to know why people find it so weird? What is it exactly that makes it weird for you? The amount of grip or something else?

for me, the cars turn in very fast with no hint of any progressive loss of traction. I'd have to get back in-game to give more detail. it's very hard to put a finger on.

4 hours ago, PJTierney said:

The road surfaces being smoother/rougher probably plays into it too, and Monte being colder (theoretically).

yeah, that's another of my assumptions, but even when you're on smooth tarmac in Germany it feels better. it's also possible it's simply because there are far fewer curvy turns and many, many 90 degree and hairpin ones where your (read: my) attention is not on easing the car through smoothly

also, I must admit that I usually do MC with winter tires, which feel better, and it could be that I'm extrapolating my experience of those to the softs. 

Edited by ianism

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Monte tarmac sections feel great on the Softs 🙂 

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Posted (edited)

I've always assumed the tarmac physics in DR2.0 are "just" the gravel/snow physics with the grip turned up. I know it's most likely not (exactly) like that, but that's how it feels to me when driving on tarmac. Especially in fwd and rwd cars. For starters, there's a severe lack of understeer on tarmac imo, which is most obvious when you plant the throttle in fwd car when turning into a slower corner. Doing that should result in a decent amount of understeer, but instead it gives lots of extra turn in, which seems logical for gravel and snow, but not for tarmac, even when taking into account the tyres being super grippy. In general I've noticed that when sliding on tarmac it feels like the tyres build up sideways grip similar to the gravel/snow buildup effect, making it very hard to maintain slides in rwd cars and kinda explaining the lack of understeer.

When looking at irl vids, cars should be very planted on tarmac, but in DR2.0 they are super floaty, the long high speed corners of Spain enhance this floatiness, because the rear end really floats around a lot then imo.
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy the technical tarmac sections in Germany and Monte despite the lack of understeer in mainly fwd cars, but the floatiness that Spain has just makes it unenjoyable for me after 1 or 2 stages, despite some amazing corner sequences.

Edited by doeternitoeV10
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So, why wouldn't tarmac in real life be basically a very grippy gravel? You know, kind of like a solid... compacted... gravel

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Jake Cushing said:

So, why wouldn't tarmac in real life be basically a very grippy gravel? You know, kind of like a solid... compacted... gravel

Gravel is a loose surface, tarmac is a solid one. On gravel, the tyres will deform the surface by pushing away the gravel/snow particles, this also means that having a tyre moving sideways in gravel/snow, dirt will build up on the side of the tyres. Basically, gravel is a very grippy surface because it's rough, but at the same time it's very slidey because the surface moves with the tyre driving over it. On tarmac the surface doesn't move at all, there might be some dust that makes things slippery but, you're fully dependant on the grip caused by the friction of the top of the tyre with the surface. On gravel and snow, there's a "cut/dig in" factor too.

At least, that's how I've heard people/rally drivers explain it before as well as kinda experienced a little when driving on a loose surface irl. Even very compacted gravel has the particle buildup against the sidewall iirc, since it kinda "scraping" away the top particles.
I'd assume there might be more to it, but I hope this kinda makes sense/is a correct explanation 😉 

 

Edited by doeternitoeV10
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On 5/6/2020 at 1:30 PM, ianism said:

So I think we can all agree the handling in Spain feels weird, but Germany and MC feel much better.

Is it because the physics are a little different there, or is it just because the road is more heavily cambered in Spain?

Exactly! I hate Spain but like Germany and MC.

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'

On 5/6/2020 at 5:17 PM, Madhun1967 said:

It is weird IMHO ...............and has been a complaint for a lot of us .I do not "feel" any lateral movement and feedback through my 300RS at all, when car moves in and out of those turns on smooth tarmac.Now compare that to feel in RR, AC or Automobilista, Rfactor etc , there is so much going on even in smooth asphalt driving.

I took an E30 last night in Raceroom for a spin on a A to B hillclimb track and oh wow .............what a tactile experience.Wish i could get that a rally car soon in a sim.

Its almost like the wheel goes numb.

Something like that for my controller. I know in other games something happened but I am out of track already in Spain. It doesn't make sense to play. I am either too slow or out of the track and I rather need something bellow maximum grip.

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On 5/6/2020 at 7:51 PM, ianism said:

for me, the cars turn in very fast with no hint of any progressive loss of traction. I'd have to get back in-game to give more detail. it's very hard to put a finger on.

That's it for me too.

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8 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

So, why wouldn't tarmac in real life be basically a very grippy gravel? You know, kind of like a solid... compacted... gravel

It's the same problem like Forza Horizon. They have tarmac physics only and gravel is something like bumpy tarmac. You can't use it and if the problem with tarmac is the same in DR2, it makes sense, because gravel physics are pretty good. Both worlds are completely different and it's not possible to tune one to another.

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I play the game using the stock DS4 on my PS4Pro, with no assists and manual gearshifting in steeringwheel cockpit view. 

Surely there is always room for improvements, but in my opinion there is no other game to date that has better handling on public or private taramac roads than Dirt Rally 2.0. Maybe I don’t push hard enough but I find it really enjoyable to drive on asphalt in DR2.0, and I’m sad that there won’t be another taramac rally or two in the game - the narrow roads of Corsica and Ireland would have suited this game incredibly well.

However, what Codemasters should work on is the behaviour on snow which in game feels like wet gravel/mud in Sweden, but fact is that you can have as much friction as on asphalt on those roads. The snow and ice behaviour in Monte Carlo isn’t something to shout hurray for either, with strange behaviour that really should be looked into.

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12 hours ago, Jake Cushing said:

So, why wouldn't tarmac in real life be basically a very grippy gravel? You know, kind of like a solid... compacted... gravel

On gravel you can exaggerate with full throttle and sliding and therefore drifting and fighting against the centrifugal forces with full throttle, because the loose sand and dirt is scraped away, so the tyres get more grip on the firmer surface under the sand.
Rear-wheel drive vehicles don't oversteer so fast on gravel, because spinning rear wheels cut a groove and get something to hold on to.

 

On asphalt you should not overstrain the tyres because the grip decreases. This decrease in grip is not noticeable in DR.

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There are two things you can do to make tarmac enjoyable in my opinion. First is to choose the right car, as there are subtle differences in handling. For example, for some reason I like how Mitsubishi Space Star R5 handles on tarmac, feels better than other R5 cars.

Second option is to tune the car. Differentials and suspension setup can make the car handle in a much more beliveable way. I posted a thread to share such tips some time ago, where I also put my Porsche 911 R-GT tuning for Spain: 

Spent a lot of time on it, but now I can drive it like I would a GT3 car in other sims, and it handles much better than on stock setup. It's fast too, managed to get 23rd time on a daily recently.

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personally, I like using wet (or winter in MC) tires on dry tarmac. that feels better somehow. less grip. I should try mediums or hards I guess.

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This is the only area where WRC 8 trumps DR2. The asphalt physics in WRC 8 are vastly superior compares to, Spain at least anyway. 

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