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ERS Deployment - F1 2020

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What on earth has happened here!? I honestly have no way of going through all the messages, so I think I'll just recommend some of Barry's ones 😁

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they followed the drivers' feedback but made the car's behavior too arcade. You cannot cut high curbs with all four wheels and not lose the car. Then when you are about to lose the car you don't understand the reason but the car has something that makes you gain grip. In the beta this thing must be resolved ... I prefer the curbs of F1 2019 at this point. In reality, they do not jump on it by going further with all the tires, otherwise they would crash in 99.9% of cases.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, BarryBL said:

In time.....

I think a few conclusions have been jumped to on this topic. Like stated earlier, we've had direct feedback from F1 drivers and teams on the ERS system. I think it justifies the comments of 'nitro' and 'arcade'. If the drivers themselves have said that, for example, 'X system would be a more universally accepted attempt at a replication than your current system'. Teams may have very subtle differences in their systems and mapping which they would probably not want to totally give away (competitive advantage and everything 😛 ), but I think its our responsibility to listen and try to bring our system closer in line

Hopefully the first week of BETA testing and any upcoming further detail on 2020 as we get closer to launch sheds light on the issue.

I fully agree. Drivers obviously did say that the ERS was more realistic on AUTO cause they have been instructed that the system implied a constant live mapping/micromanaging.

Is it more realistic micromanaging or have it on auto? Absolutely auto

But is it more realistic having it on auto without control than having a system with presets?

The current ERS system and its eventual variations and upgrades were badly described to drivers.

À question badly posed can change the answer...

Edited by sirio994
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26 minutes ago, MrCosta96 said:

So you want Codemasters to completely ignore what the real life drivers and teams said about ERS just because you decided to spend a few hundred euros on a wheel?

Out today - new Fanatec wheel to coincide with new F1 game - maybe someone should have talked to CM before making this new offer - 

 

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12 minutes ago, sirio994 said:

I fully agree. Drivers obviously did say that the ERS was more realistic on AUTO cause they have been instructed that the system implied a constant live mapping/micromanaging.

Is it more realistic micromanaging or have it on auto? Absolutely auto

But is it more realistic having it on auto without control than having a system with presets?

The current ERS system and its eventual variations and upgrades were badly described to drivers.

À question badly posed can change the answer...

@BarryBL

What I'm trying to say is that competitive gaming is the best showcase of talent and skill but esports are not the best simulation or showcase of realism. It happens every time with sports gaming.

No problem for me, it has to be that way. Competitive gaming is like real f1 you try to find every possible advantage at the cost of realism.

World record laps are crazy fast but some of them are not the best showcase of the game handling, not the best looking laps to say it that way.

Drivers were criticizing the mid corner downshift using all possible bad words but...the moment after they were downshifting mid corner and using first gear.

Essentially in sports gaming you have to compromise. If you want to play, in this case drive, realistically you won't be the best/the fastest.

The history is full of good features that have been removed from sports game cause they were used unrealistically and as exploits.

But it hurts badly the experience of those who want to compromise to have the most realistic experience...

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2020 at 12:20 PM, BarryBL said:

It is an on/off toggle like @Worntoathread stated. A 'hold' function wouldn't be the best thing to add as drivers will have enough to think about. 

Sorry but how's that not shortsighted when you're stating that it wouldn't be the best thing. Says WHO? I'm sorry but I'd rather like the hold option that OT works as long as I press it. Like the KERS buttons back in the day. I want to control it and not constantly press a button twice for on off while pressing and releasing is 1 action less to think about.

That's why F1 drivers are F1 Drivers, they're able to do these things at once. 
 

want to do it right? Give the players the option to hold or toggle on off. Leave the choice to us. 

can't be that hard. I'm not waiting for moments like "oh yeah i need to toggle off overtake" while it works when I want to use it by keep pushing it and releasing it.

come on man...

Edited by AlexTT

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I love all the allow us to map the ers in the garage but how is that going to work online in ranked 5 lappers with 1 shot qualifying or even in organised leagues?

whatever ers system the game ends up using needs to transfer from career mode/my team and also online and in leagues.

the current suggested changes are a good step in the right direction and as barry has said will be looked at in beta, i agree that some control for harvesting would be good to be added but lets wait for the beta and for people to actually see how it will work in various practise, qually and race situations before we have people saying the old system is better 

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1 hour ago, HamishOK said:

Out today - new Fanatec wheel to coincide with new F1 game - maybe someone should have talked to CM before making this new offer - 

 

Oh good, so I did just buy the Schumacher Edition for €1 then. The terms and conditions were a bit extreme though. :classic_ninja:

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6 minutes ago, cearp8858 said:

I love all the allow us to map the ers in the garage but how is that going to work online in ranked 5 lappers with 1 shot qualifying or even in organised leagues?

whatever ers system the game ends up using needs to transfer from career mode/my team and also online and in leagues.

the current suggested changes are a good step in the right direction and as barry has said will be looked at in beta, i agree that some control for harvesting would be good to be added but lets wait for the beta and for people to actually see how it will work in various practise, qually and race situations before we have people saying the old system is better 

Agree with the wait and see for sure. I think the new ERS sounds like and will be fine for the game. It will be those who don't really like change and those who mastered the old way and therefore think they had an advantage who will oppose it.

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, martbloke said:

Agree with the wait and see for sure. I think the new ERS sounds like and will be fine for the game. It will be those who don't really like change and those who mastered the old way and therefore think they had an advantage who will oppose it.

Personally I was very good at managing it and had more than enough buttons for shortcuts, but still I strongly dislike the old system. I'd rather have a bit less control than having to press buttons all the time. I did it to be faster but in the end I want the racing to be fun and focus on actually driving the car. 

I think people are indeed too quick to jump to conclusions when we haven't even been able to try the new system yet. If it turns out there's actually not enough control in terms of charging/qualy, I'll be the first to criticise it and post some constructive feedback as well but I really want to see for myself first.

Edited by Worntoathread
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Posted (edited)

The thing is in real u change the bbias or diff way more often than anything else. If u have to do micromanaging ers u dont have time to do something else. Pushing 60 Buttons per lap is not what u want and its just not realistic.. So the ERS change is a good way... I said a few Times my ers proposal was a good one. I would also See a ers where u can premap 3 modes for example by yourself for what Kind u want. U can map deploy and harvest. It has impact on brakes.... And u can use your mapping in diffrent Situation, diffrent tyre and so o as u want. But its a point that u Cant map it like it Was before. So u Cant exploit the System to map your own and Switch every corner..... And surely the overtake button which we have. But These 3 modes are for a whole race und u use the Switch rarely as in real

Edited by Exodium

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Oh and another idea:

Mostly the ERS change comes from the Team. They say Mode bla bla bla. Would be cool if u can talk with jeff and he gives u than the ABILITY to change your ers mode. For example jeff say: Switch to Mode 3.

Again 3 modes for example which get premapped by the Team. And u can only use the Mode Switch when jeff is talking to u

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Posted (edited)

Why make things over complicated? I don’t see much wrong with what has been shown or been said by codies on the revamped ers system and no one can say how it will work until people start to test it

keep it as has been revealed so far for beta and then look at testing something similar to below If a change is needed because certain aspects of driving/racing dictate it;

mode 0 to harvest & mode 1 so basically allow us to have ers on or off 

keep the overtake toggle button mode 2 and have Mode 3 only in qualifying like max fuel mode 

gives you the control you want but also the simplicity needed so that people can concentrate on racing, because in 2018 & 2019 the ers control is too complicated and far too many modes which half the time not all of them get used, a lot of people spend a lot of the races worrying about being in a certain ers modes for certain corners.

we also have to remember not everyone has a wheel with a rim that has 20+ buttons/rotaries to perform all the functions to get the most out of managing the cars systems be it fuel, ers, differential or brake bias and also scrolling through various mfd menus and not everyone uses voice commands to do some of the mfd menu work either  
a large majority will be on a pad and if they are using a manual gearbox will have a lot of buttons to keep pressing every lap

Edited by cearp8858
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10 minutes ago, cearp8858 said:

Why make things over complicated? I don’t see much wrong with what has been shown or been said by codies on the revamped ers system and no one can say any how it will work until people start to test it

Exactly what i think too

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Posted (edited)

For anyone wanting to know how it actually works in real life the video below is as close as you're gonna get. The iracing MP4-30 is pretty much an accurate simulation of the car systems that you can configure and use as you would do in real life. All the options that the team and drivers used themselves are available to you although NOT of course the actual configuration McLaren used because that would be secret info of course. The real life car wasn't exactly a great success so I'm not sure why iracing chose to simulate it unless BECAUSE it was somewhat a flop maybe McLaren didn't see it as much to give away anyway.

Regardless of the success of the car the functions are intriguing to learn. At first I was confused then it all made sense. The team and driver would use presets for the FIXED, ADAPTIVE and OVERTAKE functions but the driver (or team more likely) could alter these during the race to give more or less power /charge. In fact after watching this a hundred or so driver /team messages finally made sense to me as I could see what exactly they were referring to!

The video explains the setup way better than I could but important points are that (at least in 2015!) you could choose a continuous mode of ADAPTIVE or FIXED. A setting of 0 to 14 would then be set for these to use. 0 being most power least harvesting and 12 being lowest power most harvesting. 13 and 14 released no charge at all and were harvesting only. The idea being you could choose say a FIXED rate that would give you a predictable amount of charge throughout the race that would be timed to run out by the end, or an ADAPTIVE setting would still use a 0-14 figure but adjust on the fly depending on track configuration. As power is affected in a major way by ERS deployment the setting had to be in harmony with the car setup itself. A sudden available power surge on corner exit for example might lose you control so you quite often would NOT want full power available. Except on a straight with the push to pass boost option. In iracing the driver can toggle between FIXED and ADAPTIVE at any time and with a dial change the setting 0-14 himself during a race. I do NOT know if in real life how much of this could be changed by the driver himself, i expect he would be given a range of settings to use, or a few pre selects and would have to ask the team to enable other settings should the race situation demand it.

Having seen this in action now along with the accurate DRS activation lights I obviously want it BAD! Of course we don't have teams in the f1 game (well not a team managing US at any rate) so I understand how it would be difficult to give a driver full control of EVERY THING. Which is a lot, but then again iracing has done it and it looks very manageable indeed. Another reason why Codies would not want to give players all these options is that they produce a game that EVERYONE can play with assists and auto options everywhere. When you watch this video you will understand by the end that people who have the power to change all these settings themselves will basically blow away any car on track that uses auto. No contest because Codies could not possibly program auto to work as well in every possible situation which is why real life does not use auto. Personally I think it WOULD be a fair addition because wheel users are at a disadvantage now to pad users. You NEED a wheel to operate all these functions well so it would give the wheel users a fair chance at equalizing out their disadvantage. Except the pad users would then complain wheel users were equal again so we are back to square one!

Enjoy the video and dream about all this one day being in an official F1 game! 😊🤔😎

..... Great now the forum won't let me paste the video link! As in the paste option won't work.... So I will submit this post and try again in another straight away..

 

 

Edited by sloppysmusic
Added video link
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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

I think it WOULD be a fair addition because wheel users are at a disadvantage now to pad users. You NEED a wheel to operate all these functions well so it would give the wheel users a fair chance at equalizing out their disadvantage. Except the pad users would then complain wheel users were equal again so we are back to square one!

Yeah this is the problem I can see the game having as it grows there is going to be rift and clash at some point. Although it's funny when the term 'fairness' is used when we talk about F1 when F1 is inherently unfair. Just ask Sauber/Williams if its fair the top 3 blow them away with equipment. Maybe that's what Racing Point were doing this year copying the Mercedes design exactly, was their equivalent of a wheel upgrade lol

Agree with your statement fully though. Although speaking of clashes, just seen footage of the Hanoi track (looks like a flatter sterile Mexico), the racing line goes directly through the pit exit white line, can see a lot of clashes happening right there lol

Edited by TomAAA
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17 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

For anyone wanting to know how it actually works in real life the video below is as close as you're gonna get. The iracing MP4-30 is pretty much an accurate simulation of the car systems that you can configure and use as you would do in real life. All the options that the team and drivers used themselves are available to you although NOT of course the actual configuration McLaren used because that would be secret info of course. The real life car wasn't exactly a great success so I'm not sure why iracing chose to simulate it unless BECAUSE it was somewhat a flop maybe McLaren didn't see it as much to give away anyway.

Regardless of the success of the car the functions are intriguing to learn. At first I was confused then it all made sense. The team and driver would use presets for the FIXED, ADAPTIVE and OVERTAKE functions but the driver (or team more likely) could alter these during the race to give more or less power /charge. In fact after watching this a hundred or so driver /team messages finally made sense to me as I could see what exactly they were referring to!

The video explains the setup way better than I could but important points are that (at least in 2015!) you could choose a continuous mode of ADAPTIVE or FIXED. A setting of 0 to 14 would then be set for these to use. 0 being most power least harvesting and 12 being lowest power most harvesting. 13 and 14 released no charge at all and were harvesting only. The idea being you could choose say a FIXED rate that would give you a predictable amount of charge throughout the race that would be timed to run out by the end, or an ADAPTIVE setting would still use a 0-14 figure but adjust on the fly depending on track configuration. As power is affected in a major way by ERS deployment the setting had to be in harmony with the car setup itself. A sudden available power surge on corner exit for example might lose you control so you quite often would NOT want full power available. Except on a straight with the push to pass boost option. In iracing the driver can toggle between FIXED and ADAPTIVE at any time and with a dial change the setting 0-14 himself during a race. I do NOT know if in real life how much of this could be changed by the driver himself, i expect he would be given a range of settings to use, or a few pre selects and would have to ask the team to enable other settings should the race situation demand it.

Having seen this in action now along with the accurate DRS activation lights I obviously want it BAD! Of course we don't have teams in the f1 game (well not a team managing US at any rate) so I understand how it would be difficult to give a driver full control of EVERY THING. Which is a lot, but then again iracing has done it and it looks very manageable indeed. Another reason why Codies would not want to give players all these options is that they produce a game that EVERYONE can play with assists and auto options everywhere. When you watch this video you will understand by the end that people who have the power to change all these settings themselves will basically blow away any car on track that uses auto. No contest because Codies could not possibly program auto to work as well in every possible situation which is why real life does not use auto. Personally I think it WOULD be a fair addition because wheel users are at a disadvantage now to pad users. You NEED a wheel to operate all these functions well so it would give the wheel users a fair chance at equalizing out their disadvantage. Except the pad users would then complain wheel users were equal again so we are back to square one!

Enjoy the video and dream about all this one day being in an official F1 game! 😊🤔😎

..... Great now the forum won't let me paste the video link! As in the paste option won't work.... So I will submit this post and try again in another straight away..

 

 

THANKS. I was thinking about creating a post and show different interactions between the team and the driver in which clearly the driver is changing ers preset. Thoughtout the day I was trying to explain that drivers said it was unrealistic referring to the crazy micromanaging. The actual system could have been a great starting point.

And this is the reason why 3 companies (kunos, SMS and codemasters) came with different solutions:

Kunos brought presets and harvesting settings

SMS essentially said you can't map it and set as you want so we give you the ability to control the deployment through a button

Codemasters came up with the old system

Iracing went for the closest reproduction

They were all formally correct. Cause they are simplified versions and philosophies of the same exact complex thing... 

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Posted (edited)

I was doing a video myself. But then I found this: around 50:00, Stefano Casillo explains how they made the ERS system for the 2017 Ferrari and its profiles combined with MGUH and MGUK settings.

Edited by sirio994
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10 minutes ago, sirio994 said:

Iracing went for the closest reproduction 

You're welcome man! It was my turn anyway to step up to the plate and try explain something difficult? Yes iracing would have known anything but accurate and they'd be criticized for dumbing it down. It's not easy to understand without a manual or long explanation (I tried!) but it IS tech-simple. Reminds me of most early renditions of new hardware. Accurate implementation but an eyesore to look at when you first see it. "you want the truth sim racers? You can't HANDLE the truth!"

Except it's way too powerful and straightforward to grasp now I've 'seen the light' to forget!

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5 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

For anyone wanting to know how it actually works in real life the video below is as close as you're gonna get. The iracing MP4-30 is pretty much an accurate simulation of the car systems that you can configure and use as you would do in real life. All the options that the team and drivers used themselves are available to you although NOT of course the actual configuration McLaren used because that would be secret info of course. The real life car wasn't exactly a great success so I'm not sure why iracing chose to simulate it unless BECAUSE it was somewhat a flop maybe McLaren didn't see it as much to give away anyway.

Regardless of the success of the car the functions are intriguing to learn. At first I was confused then it all made sense. The team and driver would use presets for the FIXED, ADAPTIVE and OVERTAKE functions but the driver (or team more likely) could alter these during the race to give more or less power /charge. In fact after watching this a hundred or so driver /team messages finally made sense to me as I could see what exactly they were referring to!

The video explains the setup way better than I could but important points are that (at least in 2015!) you could choose a continuous mode of ADAPTIVE or FIXED. A setting of 0 to 14 would then be set for these to use. 0 being most power least harvesting and 12 being lowest power most harvesting. 13 and 14 released no charge at all and were harvesting only. The idea being you could choose say a FIXED rate that would give you a predictable amount of charge throughout the race that would be timed to run out by the end, or an ADAPTIVE setting would still use a 0-14 figure but adjust on the fly depending on track configuration. As power is affected in a major way by ERS deployment the setting had to be in harmony with the car setup itself. A sudden available power surge on corner exit for example might lose you control so you quite often would NOT want full power available. Except on a straight with the push to pass boost option. In iracing the driver can toggle between FIXED and ADAPTIVE at any time and with a dial change the setting 0-14 himself during a race. I do NOT know if in real life how much of this could be changed by the driver himself, i expect he would be given a range of settings to use, or a few pre selects and would have to ask the team to enable other settings should the race situation demand it.

Having seen this in action now along with the accurate DRS activation lights I obviously want it BAD! Of course we don't have teams in the f1 game (well not a team managing US at any rate) so I understand how it would be difficult to give a driver full control of EVERY THING. Which is a lot, but then again iracing has done it and it looks very manageable indeed. Another reason why Codies would not want to give players all these options is that they produce a game that EVERYONE can play with assists and auto options everywhere. When you watch this video you will understand by the end that people who have the power to change all these settings themselves will basically blow away any car on track that uses auto. No contest because Codies could not possibly program auto to work as well in every possible situation which is why real life does not use auto. Personally I think it WOULD be a fair addition because wheel users are at a disadvantage now to pad users. You NEED a wheel to operate all these functions well so it would give the wheel users a fair chance at equalizing out their disadvantage. Except the pad users would then complain wheel users were equal again so we are back to square one!

Enjoy the video and dream about all this one day being in an official F1 game! 😊🤔😎

..... Great now the forum won't let me paste the video link! As in the paste option won't work.... So I will submit this post and try again in another straight away..

 

 

 

4 hours ago, sirio994 said:

I was doing a video myself. But then I found this: around 50:00, Stefano Casillo explains how they made the ERS system for the 2017 Ferrari and its profiles combined with MGUH and MGUK settings.

Great finds gents, really eye opening stuff.

For me all it does is highlight how much of an arcade game the codemasters f1 series is. I appreciate that there is a difficult balance to be found between realism and accessibility, however I feel codemasters go too far towards the latter. The success of games such as Asseto Corsa and Project Cars I think proves there is demand for a more realistic simulation of the f1 cars systems and physics. It is after all the pinnacle of motorsport and technology. The guy in the Asseto Corsa video said himself if he was producing an f1 game he would go for an implementation that gave the player an interface to custom map deployment of the ERS system around the track. Perhaps FOM/Liberty Media could consider 2 licences, one for a casual game and one for a sim. Needless to say which one I would purchase!

Given the wide range of assists available in the game and the gamepad vs wheel situation, the hybrid systems implementation is another problem codemasters probably don't need! I fail to see how they can possibly please everyone! I can't say I'm surprised by the direction codemasters have taken, but unfortunately the game moves ever further from what I personally would like.

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Posted (edited)

There is an irony in someone using iRacing's old hybrid model as an example of realism when it's been changed a dozen times since with its own exploits and flaws.

iRacing's fixed and adaptive modes have since been replaced with a manual and automatic trim control with an additional qualifying mode. The trim control better represents how energy is deployed in these cars but it's still a compromise for not being able to properly map the track. Automatic "learns" the track similar to the changes for 2020 and automatically controls the trim, but Manual in iRacing always ends up being set to minimum trim with just spamming the boost button instead. (This is how the more relevant to iRacing LMP1 meta ended out as, too).

Nonetheless it is still a compromise on how the modes on these cars are actually setup - the energy deployment is mapped to the track, and the only control the driver has are modes to bias towards harvesting or deploying more, or a neutral mode that aims to reach a target SOC per lap, with the engine modes making more of a difference -- the only special one is the quali mode that is full power and dumping as much energy as you can in the lap.

Edited by amphobius
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It is an indisputable fact that all modern F1 cars MUST use hybrid systems. They differ so hugely from traditional engines both in design and race strategy that it is a shame we cannot have the most obvious change of these engines, ERS , to not be a major part of the game also. This will be the 3rd iteration of the game that uses it yet we are still not much better off in this concern than F1 2017 plus nitro boost.

Once again, these cars are ALL about the hybrid..but the games are not. With all the other strategies we can tinker with behind the scenes and during set up it's highly visible by its absence from setup.

ERS deserves its OWN page in car setup one day hopefully. Casuals can just ignore it, let the rest of us spend hours tweaking settings and sharing them. Win/Win.

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8 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

 

 

 

that's exactly what i said in my post some time ago

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From our perspective on this, our direct feedback has been quoted by Lee (and from Lando) in the below:

https://www.racefans.net/2020/05/14/how-f1-drivers-helped-codemasters-make-massive-gains-with-f1-2020s-realism/

Like stated earlier, although other games have differing solutions, we have to work on the feedback from the guys who drive them. If Lando mentions to us that these are the core changes he'd think would bring it more in line (along with other drivers), like stated earlier, I'd like to think its our job to listen to him 🙂

 

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@BarryBLIt is very good to ask the drivers to improve the game, this for the future is key to make it perfect.

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