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ERS Deployment - F1 2020

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10 hours ago, TomAAA said:

Yeah this is the problem I can see the game having as it grows there is going to be rift and clash at some point. Although it's funny when the term 'fairness' is used when we talk about F1 when F1 is inherently unfair. Just ask Sauber/Williams if its fair the top 3 blow them away with equipment. Maybe that's what Racing Point were doing this year copying the Mercedes design exactly, was their equivalent of a wheel upgrade lol

Agree with your statement fully though. Although speaking of clashes, just seen footage of the Hanoi track (looks like a flatter sterile Mexico), the racing line goes directly through the pit exit white line, can see a lot of clashes happening right there lol

Typical Tilke track.

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19 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

From our perspective on this, our direct feedback has been quoted by Lee (and from Lando) in the below:

https://www.racefans.net/2020/05/14/how-f1-drivers-helped-codemasters-make-massive-gains-with-f1-2020s-realism/

Like stated earlier, although other games have differing solutions, we have to work on the feedback from the guys who drive them. If Lando mentions to us that these are the core changes he'd think would bring it more in line (along with other drivers), like stated earlier, I'd like to think its our job to listen to him 🙂

 

definitly true barry and i'm very happy that u do that 🙂

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Obviously at the moment we’ve got more drivers than ever playing the game on a regular basis so the level of feedback that we’re getting now is probably greater than we’ve ever had.”

He's so good at shining and polishing a turd, but in the end it's still a turd. 
 

when they are completely are making fun of every aspect of your game, absolutely destroying everything about it, well... you can stick your head back in your *** because that's NOT feedback! 
 

Can CM PLEASE get rid of that guy? When I look at him and listening to him at the same time, with that smug face, telling all those lies and pretty tales, it makes me wanna throw up! 
 

sorry, can't help it, just had enough of that liar. He's twisting everything in that article, and well, the whole COMMUNITY who is SCREAMING almost EVERY THING he says, where are we mentioned? 
 

He should call Max Verstappen, live on twitch, and let him give his HONEST UNCENSORED view on the F1 games. I think he's gonna cry.

year after year it's drama and misery, and when is that douche going to take his responsibility as director or whatever, for releasing those abominations and his lies? 

Edited by AlexTT

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, AlexTT said:

 

Max Verstappen is just another driver, like the others. Max likes simulation, others don't and some like both.

F1 games from Codemasters are literally not supposed to be a full simulation of F1, it's supposed to be accessible to everyone!

Edited by MrCosta96

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1 minute ago, MrCosta96 said:

Max Verstappen is just another driver, like the others. Max likes simulation, others don't and some like both.

F1 games from Codemasters are literally not supposed to be a full simulation of F1, it's supposed to be accessible to everyone!

Soooooooo you're saying handling model which is not even near reality is okay with you?😱you don't care if the official licensed game isn't nowhere near the real deal?😱You don't care about bugs which are years old?😱The SUZUKA BUMP?😱and i can keep on going.... 

if something is OFFICIALLY licensed, WE as buyers MAY expect some sort of game which is maybe not exact realism, but also nothing like this which doesn't even come close with all the bugs and flaws included. 
 

if you're satisfied with 2019, well your standards aren't very high, sorry to say that. 
 

i don't care if its not exactly the same realism, but it's certainly possible to create something which comes close. Not something that's more wreckfest than F1. They can do it with Dirt, so why not with F1? 
 

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7 minutes ago, MrCosta96 said:

Max Verstappen is just another driver, like the others. Max likes simulation, others don't and some like both.

F1 games from Codemasters are literally not supposed to be a full simulation of F1, it's supposed to be accessible to everyone!

Max is not just some driver buddy. I don't know of you see what he does in virtual races, but when you can compete on the top level in any sort of car and class, and always running in front, you're not just another driver. 
 

and not because I'm dutch or max fan (which i am both) but After 20+ years of beeing a fan formula 1, Someone can see when a driver has the talent to be one of the greatest drivers. Ericsson, grosjean, those are "just" drivers. But there are those who are a class of them own.

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8 minutes ago, AlexTT said:

Soooooooo you're saying handling model which is not even near reality is okay with you?😱you don't care if the official licensed game isn't nowhere near the real deal?😱You don't care about bugs which are years old?😱The SUZUKA BUMP?😱and i can keep on going.... 

if something is OFFICIALLY licensed, WE as buyers MAY expect some sort of game which is maybe not exact realism, but also nothing like this which doesn't even come close with all the bugs and flaws included. 
 

if you're satisfied with 2019, well your standards aren't very high, sorry to say that. 
 

i don't care if its not exactly the same realism, but it's certainly possible to create something which comes close. Not something that's more wreckfest than F1. They can do it with Dirt, so why not with F1? 
 

Yea, I am absolutely ok with the handling model not being close to reality, it doesn't really matter, it's not a sim.
Please do explain how the official license game is nowhere near the real deal. If you're talking about the tracks, yes, laser scanning them ALL is needed.
I know about bugs that have been in the games for years, yes but it doesn't make my experience any worse. But they DEFINITELY need fixing. Also, what does official licensing have to do with bugs?

6 minutes ago, AlexTT said:

Max is not just some driver buddy. I don't know of you see what he does in virtual races, but when you can compete on the top level in any sort of car and class, and always running in front, you're not just another driver. 
 

and not because I'm dutch or max fan (which i am both) but After 20+ years of beeing a fan formula 1, Someone can see when a driver has the talent to be one of the greatest drivers. Ericsson, grosjean, those are "just" drivers. But there are those who are a class of them own.

Max is literally just another driver in terms of input for the game, I didn't say about real life, should've specified.

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Official in like... DRS zones whoch just won't be updated to 2019 standard for a whole year? Just won't happen. And official is also in a way that you may expect a handling model which is closer to realism then whatever it is now. When drivers actually say that driving with medium TC is more realism than without TC, well you have missed the memo i guess. 

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I don’t get why some of you wouldn’t want the game to be more realistic. Some of u would rather they would put stuff not in real life in the game. The fact the ers is auto and with a overtake button is way more realistic then we have had in F1 2018 and 2019. We no longer have to mess around with ers every corner. The real f1 drivers told them it’s very unrealistic as well

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17 minutes ago, MrCosta96 said:

Max Verstappen is just another driver, like the others. Max likes simulation, others don't and some like both.

F1 games from Codemasters are literally not supposed to be a full simulation of F1, it's supposed to be accessible to everyone!

Did CM team also take into consideration feedback from Max Verstappen who told Lando Norris to "Bin it (F1 2019)and play iracing" or Charles Leclerc who said when playing F1 2019 on Twitch - I prefer Assetto Corsa - It seems to me as pointed out above both AC and iRacing have more user input/control, for example ERS. Also rumour has it F1 2020 had dumbed down traction control so as controller players can mange cornering - same may be said for turn in - it may have been dumbed down for controller players also (CF recent video by TRL Limitless). All in all I can see a pattern developing - dumbed down controller players ie an arcade game or more immersion ie simulation players. Currently the jury is out but recent developments from Lee Mather's team over the last couple of iterations do not look optimistic for the sim gamers and good news for the arcade players.

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12 minutes ago, AlexTT said:

Official in like... DRS zones whoch just won't be updated to 2019 standard for a whole year? Just won't happen. And official is also in a way that you may expect a handling model which is closer to realism then whatever it is now. When drivers actually say that driving with medium TC is more realism than without TC, well you have missed the memo i guess. 

Most sims out there actually make cars harder to drive than what they are in real life, e.g: a NASCAR driver said the car was actually more forgiving in real life compared to iRacing which was harder. Sims need to understand that making something harder doesn't make it more realistic!
I agree with the DRS zones, that is a joke, they had more than time to do it.
 

4 minutes ago, HamishOK said:

Did CM team also take into consideration feedback from Max Verstappen who told Lando Norris to "Bin it (F1 2019)and play iracing" or Charles Leclerc who said when playing F1 2019 on Twitch - I prefer Assetto Corsa - It seems to me as pointed out above both AC and iRacing have more user input/control, for example ERS. Also rumour has it F1 2020 had dumbed down traction control so as controller players can mange cornering - same may be said for turn in - it may have been dumbed down for controller players also (CF recent video by TRL Limitless). All in all I can see a pattern developing - dumbed down controller players ie an arcade game or more immersion ie simulation players. Currently the jury is out but recent developments from Lee Mather's team over the last couple of iterations do not look optimistic for the sim gamers and good news for the arcade players.

Maybe they did take feedback from Max, who knows, we weren't there. Like @AlexTT said, it's not dumbed down traction control, it's from driver input on how it actually is in real life. You know, since they drive the cars.

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Just now, SomaticCoast375 said:

I don’t get why some of you wouldn’t want the game to be more realistic. Some of u would rather they would put stuff not in real life in the game. The fact the ers is auto and with a overtake button is way more realistic then we have had in F1 2018 and 2019. We no longer have to mess around with ers every corner. The real f1 drivers told them it’s very unrealistic as well

If you had  actually read the comments you're referring to you will find a lot of people complaining are happy the old system is gone, 
just unhappy that we have 0 control over the new system which is unrealistic to say the least. 

2019 was unrealistic labour wise, (but at least we had the same amount of control actual f1 teams have)
2020 seems to be unrealistic control (and simulation) wise. 

People keep forgetting that we also play as the team in this game. (with making setups and stuff) so having us do the ers during the race gave us the control the actual teams have, just while driving (which wasn't perfect, but understandable as they want this game to be plug and play and not spend a long time making ers mappings) But this is a step back because we DONT get the realism of being able to control our ers mappings (which, again, teams have) and we do lose the control of doing it on the fly. 
 

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7 minutes ago, Bicarda said:

If you had  actually read the comments you're referring to you will find a lot of people complaining are happy the old system is gone, 
just unhappy that we have 0 control over the new system which is unrealistic to say the least. 

2019 was unrealistic labour wise, (but at least we had the same amount of control actual f1 teams have)
2020 seems to be unrealistic control (and simulation) wise. 

People keep forgetting that we also play as the team in this game. (with making setups and stuff) so having us do the ers during the race gave us the control the actual teams have, just while driving (which wasn't perfect, but understandable as they want this game to be plug and play and not spend a long time making ers mappings) But this is a step back because we DONT get the realism of being able to control our ers mappings (which, again, teams have) and we do lose the control of doing it on the fly. 
 

I understand your point (and somewhere you are right), but i'd rather have Codemasters implementing more realistic features in driving the car than implementing more realistic features regarding team control. I think it is a good development that they listen to professional feedback and actually applied it.

 

Again, your comment has also has a point. Maybe Codemasters will do both...

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48 minutes ago, JackLane1982 said:

I understand your point (and somewhere you are right), but i'd rather have Codemasters implementing more realistic features in driving the car than implementing more realistic features regarding team control. I think it is a good development that they listen to professional feedback and actually applied it.

 

Again, your comment has also has a point. Maybe Codemasters will do both...

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

omg you mister are the funniest man of the day! 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bicarda said:

but understandable as they want this game to be plug and play and not spend a long time making ers mappings
 

True, it's understandable. But on the other hand, making a setup for your car for every track isn't really plug and play either. Testing different setups will cost you many laps per setup which will cost you quite some time. So setting up ERS-mapping for 3 different scenario's doesn't feel like it would be completely 'too much' for this game. The question is: can Codemasters make an intuitive system that can be adjusted without having to get in the theory to much or even at all?

To prevent people from abusing such a system (they would just activate the recharge mode when in a corner and activate deploy mode on straits just like you'd do on F1 2019) they could limit the amount of switches to 2 times a lap (for example). This way we aren't able to change the mode every corner and are forced to plan ahead. I would recharge from turn 1 to turn 15 in spain within DRS distance behind the driver in front and use overtake (which can be used at any time) on the main street. But when I am 1.8 seconds behind, I would need more power for a whole lap to get in DRS range. In that case I would switch to the deploy mode. This is not as fast as overtake, but it gives me that bit extra I need to get in DRS range. After I get in DRS range I switch back to harvest mode, so I can recharge the battery to prepare for the overtake.

Edited by Falstojudilofa

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23 hours ago, sirio994 said:

Guys, do a test. Try a race offline against the AI for a distance of 50%/100%. During the race use mode 2 as your base mode. Mode 1 when the state of charge is low. Mode 3 to catch the car ahead or to perform a undercut/overcut. Mode 4 for overtake. Don not use 0 or 5 cause they are ers off/recharge and hot lap. Use each mode for multiple laps. Use fuel modes the same way.

Then come back and quote me to say that it's unrealistic or not enough to keep pace. You will probably quote me to say that it is realistic, fun, it allows you to focus on the driving...BUT IT MAKES YOU SLOWER AND IT'S NOT ENOUGH TO COMPETE ONLINE WHIT DRIVERS WHO MICROMANAGE ERS.

This is the closest experience you can have with ERS to real life...

I keep reading that the old system was bad because of the micromanagement. Can you guys please found me where it is stated that the ERS was meant to be micromanaged?

Are you sure the ERS was supposed to be managed that way?

I don't know...mode 4 'overtake' and mode 5 'hotlap' according to their names I don't think are modes that we were supposed to use regularly in the race. The same with mode 0.

I can guarantee that you could do multiple laps with the same ers mode. Even more than 90% ofvrhe race with mode 2.

Can we please judge the old system not for what it ended up being with exploits but for what it could have been and probably was supposed to be?

I'm still waiting for a user that does my test and tells me that this ers management/concept is unrealistic.

Who did describe the ERS system to drivers? Who told them they had to micromanage it?

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Just now, sirio994 said:

I keep reading that the old system was bad because of the micromanagement. Can you guys please found me where it is stated that the ERS was meant to be micromanaged?

Are you sure the ERS was supposed to be managed that way?

I don't know...mode 4 'overtake' and mode 5 'hotlap' according to their names I don't think are modes that we were supposed to use regularly in the race. The same with mode 0.

I can guarantee that you could do multiple laps with the same ers mode. Even more than 90% ofvrhe race with mode 2.

Can we please judge the old system not for what it ended up being with exploits but for what it could have been and probably was supposed to be?

I'm still waiting for a user that does my test and tells me that this ers management/concept is unrealistic.

Who did describe the ERS system to drivers? Who told them they had to micromanage it?

You're meant to drive the car as fast as possible. In the game, micro managing was faster, maybe it wasn't intended that way but it's what happened, obviously people start using it that way and they had to change something to prevent it. 

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2 minutes ago, sirio994 said:

I keep reading that the old system was bad because of the micromanagement. Can you guys please found me where it is stated that the ERS was meant to be micromanaged?

Are you sure the ERS was supposed to be managed that way?

I don't know...mode 4 'overtake' and mode 5 'hotlap' according to their names I don't think are modes that we were supposed to use regularly in the race. The same with mode 0.

I can guarantee that you could do multiple laps with the same ers mode. Even more than 90% ofvrhe race with mode 2.

Can we please judge the old system not for what it ended up being with exploits but for what it could have been and probably was supposed to be?

I'm still waiting for a user that does my test and tells me that this ers management/concept is unrealistic.

Who did describe the ERS system to drivers? Who told them they had to micromanage it?

That's true, but acknowledging the problem doesn't actually solve the problem. The current ERS mode was not used in the way it was intended to be used.

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1 minute ago, Worntoathread said:

You're meant to drive the car as fast as possible. In the game, micro managing was faster, maybe it wasn't intended that way but it's what happened, obviously people start using it that way and they had to change something to prevent it. 

This is what I'm trying to demonstrate. The ERS wasn't that bad by design. It was bad because of exploits. They don't change fuel from corner to corner in real life but it became the norm in the game because of exploits...

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, sirio994 said:

This is what I'm trying to demonstrate. The ERS wasn't that bad by design. It was bad because of exploits. They don't change fuel from corner to corner in real life but it became the norm in the game because of exploits...

But what could be done to prevent drivers from using this exploit without it taking away the strategical advantages of the ERS system? I suggested a limit to the number of time you can switch between modes per lap with the overtake-button as exception. But I can see flaws with this system to. If you want to go from 1 to 3, does that cost you two switches? Or does it only count as a switch when you activated it for longer dan 2 seconds. Every system would have its flaws.

Edited by Falstojudilofa

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2 minutes ago, sirio994 said:

This is what I'm trying to demonstrate. The ERS wasn't that bad by design. It was bad because of exploits. They don't change fuel from corner to corner in real life but it became the norm in the game because of exploits...

 

 

I guess we'd need to understand why teams/drivers do not continually change modes throughout a lap IRL like people do in game to fully understand if it was realistic or not really. Is it because you'd destroy your battery the more times you change it? Is it because it doesn't actually give you the advantage we see in game i.e. there is a lag of getting the power set to actual produce? Does it cause problems for the car if it was done IRL like people do in game? Same goes with fuel. 

 

Only then can Codies build a more realistic version of ERS that takes these reasons into account and appeases all. Do they add more wear to battery if you continually change modes? Do they add more damage to tyres when entering higher modes of ERS (more power = more spinning of the wheels)? If it turns out to be because teams just don't want to keep micromanaging this, too time consuming, or just no reason at all yet it can give you the benefit IRL as we see in game, then well you could say game on then but there must be a reason why drivers do not do this IRL and are saying such which needs to be conveyed in game for the old ERS to return. 

 

If teams do continually and manually change modes throughout a lap, then isn't the new ERS just that? The AI changing ERS for us and we, the driver, having access to overtake? To me this is what the new system is representing and I am fully behind it. You could add the facility of planning your own mapping but it would have to be the 1 for the race not multiple you can switch anytime as that's just going back to the old ERS system which has already been said to be unrealistic.

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1 minute ago, Falstojudilofa said:

But what could be done to prevent drivers from using this exploit without it taking away the strategical advantages of the ERS system? I suggested a limit to the number of time you can switch between modes per lap with the overtake-button as exception. But I can see flaws with this system to. If you want to go from 1 to 3, does that cost you two switches? Or does it only count as a switch when you activated it for longer dan 2 seconds. Every system would have its flaws.

I suggested mode 0 very slow, 5 limited to qualify. Overtake with a deployment so high to prevent people from using it in non overtaking situations. Mode 1, 2, 3 compressed a bit to a point where micromanaging them doesn't make that much difference.

The problem of having 3 compressed modes is that it is equal to 1 mode. It is essentially f1 2020 with a bit of control added to situational racing.

But it's always the same. We can suggest whatever we want but there will always be exploits....

I won't be surprised we'll see exploits in 2020 too. I don't know maybe with overtake button or some fuel combination...who knows...

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, martbloke said:

 

 

I guess we'd need to understand why teams/drivers do not continually change modes throughout a lap IRL like people do in game to fully understand if it was realistic or not really. Is it because you'd destroy your battery the more times you change it? Is it because it doesn't actually give you the advantage we see in game i.e. there is a lag of getting the power set to actual produce? Does it cause problems for the car if it was done IRL like people do in game? Same goes with fuel. 

 

Only then can Codies build a more realistic version of ERS that takes these reasons into account and appeases all. Do they add more wear to battery if you continually change modes? Do they add more damage to tyres when entering higher modes of ERS (more power = more spinning of the wheels)? If it turns out to be because teams just don't want to keep micromanaging this, too time consuming, or just no reason at all yet it can give you the benefit IRL as we see in game, then well you could say game on then but there must be a reason why drivers do not do this IRL and are saying such which needs to be conveyed in game for the old ERS to return. 

 

If teams do continually and manually change modes throughout a lap, then isn't the new ERS just that? The AI changing ERS for us and we, the driver, having access to overtake? To me this is what the new system is representing and I am fully behind it. You could add the facility of planning your own mapping but it would have to be the 1 for the race not multiple you can switch anytime as that's just going back to the old ERS system which has already been said to be unrealistic.

The new system is indeed correct.

But Lando during his stream said they don't change it that much.

He didn't say they don't change it at all.

I don't know for sure about the others, the problem for me is not the new system (of which I understand the concept behind) but the absolute lack of control (which is unrealistic).

That's why I think 2020 is a step forward but not in the right direction. It's a better system but once you take control out of users hands I doubt they will come back with more control over a more sophisticated system (presets, variation and detailed mapping). 

Edited by sirio994

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13 minutes ago, sirio994 said:

That's why I think 2020 is a step forward but not in the right direction.

With all due respect @sirio994, you haven't played it yet. To play devils advocate, until you've experienced something first hand for yourself, I think its only best to speculate and assume. I've played it and, even though I liked the old system, the new system works well too. Just in a different way. You have to think "is it worth it" for every duel with a driver, which would be what real life drivers would have to do to.  The feedback we've had is from Lando and others directly and if they think its an improved model.

It makes you feel "Right, I'm going to use this so I've got to use it right" as you might not get it again too quickly. Like, i guess, F1 drivers too. (Disclaimer: I'm no F1 driver in disguise, I've drove a Formula 3000 car for about 12 laps as my IRL non-karting experience around a open track 😛 )

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I'm totally fine with simplifying the ERS modes because in previous games my fingers were all over the place changing the ERS modes all the time. I know there's an automatic mode but doing it manually was just faster.

It surely would be interesting to mess around different ERS settings and mapping on different tracks but you still have to look what the majority feedback is from the drivers and players. But it's definitely something that could be looked into in the future.

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