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Patch V 04.5 - The one with the Force Feedback

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AR605 said:
@bogani try to reduce to 270 degrees, it would change it to a lot more stable experience (more stable feeling by lowering the degrees :D ). I had the same feeling as you have now, it should effect the '80s cars, too (if you tried them until now).
Nah, I would never use so small amount of degrees. I want it to match the real thing, it felt fine before the patch. It's just the 2010 cars that is giving me headache after the patch. The other cars feel great.

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If there are still problems with the ffb and it's behaving strangely on certain wheels, and even if there are issues with the physics model or any other aspect of the game I think it's important to have those critical voices calling CM out on it as it lets them know what people's opinions are. I love the game and I know lots of people get defensive of it because they enjoy it so much, I often do too, but the fact of the matter is no matter how much work is done on it we are going to end up with something approximating reality to some degree rather than replicating it exactly. The negative comments and opinions may help pull that approximation closer to reality and that can't be a bad thing. Let's not stamp down discussion too harshly. There are a lot of great things about the game but to pretend it's perfect is just naive and isn't doing anyone any favours. We who love it just gotta make sure we also voice our opinions lest they start to think we're all bitching little entitled ****s.

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Still doesn't answer my question. I'd rather listen to the feedback from a former game project manager (with vast rally driving experience) and Kevin Abbring, you know the guy that is employed by the Hyundai world rally team. 
Well if the original FFB was their decision i would wager they didn't do a very good job. ( they probably just gave feedback about how the cars and tracks should handle, not so much about how FFB is translated to your toy wheel). The new FFB from the latest patch was implemented through community feedback from the last months wasn't it, and Logiforce would be a good example of community feedback when it comes to how physics and FFB need to be coded in videogames.

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chillyzy said:
bogani said:
I'm not really sure what happened to the WRC 2010 cars. After the FFB update they feel undriveable to me. They are sooo sensitive and twitchy around the center of the steering. I used 540 pre patch as I do now.  
Agree 100%. Not drivable after FFB patch. I don't know how rest of the cars, but Fiesta going sideways by it self on straight lol
I have no problems driving 540 with the Fiesta. Are you using Soft Lock? And did you calibrate the wheel correctly? I.E at the 2nd screen where it says to hold the wheel at 90 degrees did you hold it 90 at 540 and press OK?
I'm using 900 in the driver and softlock in game, so that's 540 in the WRC's. Calibrated the wheel accordingly.
Before the patch I used 900 in the driver and 60% saturation to get 540 degrees. The thing is that the WRC's feel extremely twitchy around the center of steering, almost like it did when the linearity bug was present. The other cars feel great, it's the WRC's that I don't get the feel for after the patch.

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I would like the FFB to behave different when comparing the older cars without power steering and the modern ones with power steering. The older cars should be VERY heavy when standing still but get more and more light as you start rolling. I did point out this to @KickUp   and he did take note.

What I like about old rfactor with real feel is the feel when standing still, you turn the wheel and when you let go it flexes back a small bit towards the center.

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Logi, if you are a great and experienced simracer, and you know that you know, why don't you use this sapiency for get a better Dirt Rally? And let someone take his own opinions about the game, the FFB, and so many things....

This thread is for talk about the new updated FFB, i'd like it, is hard to learn new way to drive, and setup correctly the wheel, but I think is a simple way to do this... Great work Codies!!!
Other thing is make great times, it's hard to do it, but is possible...

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MBColin said:
Logi, if you are a great and experienced simracer, and you know that you know, why don't you use this sapiency for get a better Dirt Rally? And let someone take his own opinions about the game, the FFB, and so many things....

This thread is for talk about the new updated FFB, i'd like it, is hard to learn new way to drive, and setup correctly the wheel, but I think is a simple way to do this... Great work Codies!!!
Other thing is make great times, it's hard to do it, but is possible...

Logi86 said:


All in all... for me Dirt Rally is Arcade with the capital A. It should be ashamed of itself to call itself a sim, cause absolutely NOTHING is simulated in this game. Well apart from a tyre model that dates back to probably the ToCA games.

I am sorry, but this is my opinion and my verdict of the game in this stage of development. I read they would stop the early-access before Christmas 2015. With that in mind... god help us, cause they need a miracle to turn this game into a sim if they want it released before Christmas 2015.
@Logi86 now unless I've forgotten how to read in the last few hours. (There's every chance) then right in this quote it says 'for me DiRT Rally is Arcade with the capital A'  So yes you did call DR 'arcade' 

and as for your stupid comment about the company name....  :s

Again, I will ask who you are and what your experiences are in the gaming industry, and driving rally cars in real life? 
Caught me with my pants down. A slip of the mind in this case, but I did. In the end it still doesn't mean anything as the game is what it is, and that is that it lacks in comparison to other circuit racing sims out there.

My experience in the gaming industry. I've been simply a WMD member and been involved in the physics and FFB section of WMD.
I don't do motorsports in real life, cause I am poor people.  Sorry.
You don't need to have motorsport experience to know what impact certain things have on a car, as a car is a very logical instrument in its construction and operation. So with enough knowledge and some experience in real life with driving different cars you can get a good understanding of the workings of a car. At to that almost 4 years of testing and discussing physics with the developers of SMS as well as the professional drivers. Let's just say, you do learn a thing or two over such a substantial part of a lifetime.

Edit:
Also I forgot to my experience in the gaming industry that I am an active alpha/beta tester for Fanatec hardware and software as well, and have tested the Clubsport Wheel v1 and v2 as well as Pedals v2. I am more involved with driver/firmware testing these days though.
So you can add that to my resume as well. ;)


bogani
said:
Logi86 said:
It's ironic that Logi86 calls DiRT Rally arcade, yet he has a ProjectCARS logo on his GT Planet avatar...
I never used the word arcade my friend. Yes, I have been having my say at SMS within WMD in the same way I do here towards Codemasters. I did this particularly in the physics and FFB areas.

Feel free to convince me factually and not with subjective opinion as to why Dirt Rally in your eyes is being a full blown simulation game.

MBColin said:
 :D Project Cars wanna be a Sim, but developers want to let it to
the people very soon, with much job without finish... and this circunstance make it (the game) much arcade than people thought in first moment...

Project Cars is not our rival... No sense to talk about it...
Project CARS is your rival, because with Project CARS 2 it will go off-road. The foundation at the start of Project CARS to was that of a dated tyre model, FFB model and so on from the Shift series. In the exact same way that the EGO engine is now dated.
It took SMS almost 4 years to basically put in a completely new foundation into the Madness engine with a new tyre model and FFB model among other things.  A basis that is up to snuff with current technology and computational power.

I do know there are bugs, but the basis of Project CARS is not arcade in nature at all. If you feel that is the case you should spend less time in your simulator rig and more time behind the wheel of a real car. After all, when we simulate we simulate reality and not another game. So comparing games is useless as every developer has a different approach, but we can compare our real life experience to how well something is simulated in a game.

dgeesi0 said:
It's ironic that Logi86 calls DiRT Rally arcade, yet he has a ProjectCARS logo on his GT Planet avatar...
hahahahahahahah genuine laugh out loud moment :D
Explain as to why you laugh? Or are you of the camp that to harder it is to drive the more correct a simulation is? Cause if that's the case I urge you to drive a car hard in real life, but only if the situation permits and safety is not compromised to you or others.

MBColin said:
misterdog said:

Bugs being present doesn't make a game 'arcadey'. Their physics, FFB and tyre model is one of the most complicated you can find and works great.

I agree though, OT so let's give it a rest. 
FFB and Tyre Model is one of the most complicated?

I think this game isn't the perfect example for a Good FFB and Tyre Model... If you said Assetto Corsa or rFactor2... Well I think these are more complex and worked FFB, Tyre Model, Mass balance, Suspensions,.... And everything else.... In this order as well...

This two games are for PC players, with more expectatives of what a SIM had to be.... IMO... And developers of these games (Kunos Simulazione and ISI), has a long career making titles of pure simulation, Codemasters is doing a great Dirt "Sim" Rally as well...

Other circunstance is the feeling that everyone have with his particular wheel, diferent wheels give us diferent feelings, but if I compare feelings between games with my old G27, this FFB Update feels great and is one big step beyond for Dirt Rally, like other titles I'd said before...
Actually you are incorrect on the matter of Assetto Corsa. Modders are now discovery that Kunos is using shortcuts in their physics engine and that means things start to break down for them. Personally when I make changes to the cars setups it's doing the wrong things as well that don't relate to what would happen in real life, which already starts at how the tyre model reacts to tyre pressure changes.
I agree, Project CARS still has many areas to improve as well, but not the tyre model. The FFB model, maybe as it doesn't really do well with low torque wheels. Feels great with a CSWv2 though.
rFactor 2 is a bit of a different beast. Their tyre model has a database of data from which it derives the physics responds. A fair way to do it, but different from Project CARS' live calculations. It does mean the rFactor 2 tyre model is able to work at a far higher resolution than that of Project CARS as the computation is already done before hand by ISI themselves. With Project CARS a complex calculation has to be completed instantly.
Personally I prefer the three games in this order. pCARS -> rF2 -> AC. rFactor 2 is a close second for me, and I do love the laserscanned tracks of AC as laserscans means getting the track indulations right.

I read that you use a G27. I see why our reviews can so easily be so far apart. I use a CSWv2 and that just has far more torque and is a lot more accurate (especially with the last firmware/drivers). With the G25 (in my case) I could easily hold the wheel still as the torque could not over power me, but as I moved up to T500 -> CSWv1 -> CSWv2 I started to struggle more and more with keeping the wheel straight. This also meant I started to struggle with faked or added in effects like weight transfer as it steered the car in the wrong way of what it would want to do in real life. Which resulted in spin-outs and death wiggles.
The point is that what with the G27 might feel like a nice weighty and correct feel might feel too strong and wrong with a CSWv2. This because torque increase scales the FFB effects linearly. So when your FFB follows a ditch it doesn't pull the wheel as much as it does with my CSWv2, so the more torque the more exaggerated the effects become.
The trick lies in this. This only applies to faked FFB effects, because if the FFB was derived from the tyre model and basically a simulation of the steering rack, like in pCARS, a certain amount of tyre rotation at a physics level would just be a certain amount of wheel rotation and nothing more. Which is of course dependent on lock-to-lock and steering ratio, etc.
The only downside is with a steering rack based FFB simulation system is that the FFB will feel weak on low torque steering wheels like your G27, and SMS and us WMD members have been struggling with this to improve this.  I am sure you might have noticed most complaints coming from those with low power wheels. ;)


So no, I didn't call Dirt Rally arcade. I did say that the EGO engine was aged and it needs a upgrade of the basis to this day and age to be called a sim. With that I mean a sim that can compare itself to other popular sims on the market.
The reason why I am strict with the developer is because of their rather arrogant company name, Codemasters. If they are Codemasters they should stop trying to make workarounds and make an old engine fit in a modern day. Instead they should upgrade the game at its core to what us sim racers desire in this day and age. If they are truly masters of code they should be able to do it, but I don't think they are able to do so before their supposedly early access end date.
Steering rack based FFB is great, but we need other effects as well to be able to tell what the car is doing as we can't feel weight shifting in our arse as we do IRL. 
Actually we do get weight transfer through the steeringwheel in real life even if our arses were floating on a cushion of air (which would almost make you a truck driver as they have seats with air suspension, and they feel what the truck does as well).

Here's the thing. The steering rack housing is mounted to the subframe, which is bolted to your chassis. This means that your steering rack housing is one with the car.
Of course you all know that the rack in that housing is connected to the tie rods, and them with the tie-rod ends to the spindle arm. The spindle moves with the tyres, and so on.

The  tyres have self aligning moment which will keep them going straight. So if the car oversteers, instead of the rack moving by change of direction of the wheels, the chassis moves the housing over the rack... which now turns the pinion to which your steering shaft and thus steering wheel are connected.
So the rotation of the chassis is now controlling the angle of the steering wheel. So instinctively you always know the direction in which your tyres are point, as this is always the forwards direction in which you are moving. So if the moves towards the outside of a corner you always know that you are oversteering.

Think about it. If you steer into a right hand corner and the car oversteers, the wheel always natural (wants to) COUNTER-steers in the opposite direction of the corner you're taking.

So it is absolute sim balony that you can't know weight transfer or what your car is doing. Besides, if your car transfers so much weight that you loose control because of it than you should check your setup. Too much weight transfer isn't good and can cause instabilities. In that case the car often has a too soft suspension, which can consist of tyre spring rate (tyre pressure), damping rate or spring rate.

MBColin said:
Logi, if you are a great and experienced simracer, and you know that you know, why don't you use this sapiency for get a better Dirt Rally? And let someone take his own opinions about the game, the FFB, and so many things....

This thread is for talk about the new updated FFB, i'd like it, is hard to learn new way to drive, and setup correctly the wheel, but I think is a simple way to do this... Great work Codies!!!
Other thing is make great times, it's hard to do it, but is possible...
MBColin. How should I do that? This is the general discussion board for DiRT Games, and it's about the new FFB patch. I tried the new FFB and what's the best way than to throw my thoughts in here with the rest of you guys on how I personally view this update, and also where I think the issues may reside.
Any developer isn't able to do anything meaningful with feedback that just constists of "this is shite" or "this is awesome" without any further feedback as to why it is good or bad, or where you think as an individual it could be further improved.

I am glad you like it, but that the game is hard doesn't mean that it's realistic. Heck, you can jump from a Suzuki Alto into any race car and think both cars are easy to drive, with the race car probably being even easier to drive. That is until you try to get the final 10% of performance out of the car, and ride the car and its tyres on the limit.
To me the 'hard to drive is more realistic idea' sim racers have is a complete illusion of how people think racing drivers must struggle to drive their cars. Well... I am sure nobody can drive the 24hr of LeMans or the Dakar Rally in a vehicle that is hard to drive. The feet of staying concentrated through those events is already a tough job in itself, and if you have to struggle to keep your car on the road won't aid you towards getting a winning position. It'll more easily make you eat a piece out of the tyre wall in real life.

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I finally managed to make the soft lock work : i wasnt understanding how the calibration worked

shame on me

Now @justbiglee do you know if there are plans to sync the wheel rotation with the wheel we are using ?

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bogani said:
I really like the update, but I don't think softlock is working for me. I heard that the fiesta locks at 540 degrees, but it goes all the way to 900...
Did you set softlock to "on"? ;) If so... try calibrating it in-game - then try the Fiesta again.
I did set softlock on, and I calibrated twice...
You don't have the softlock setting at 0 in the FFB/vibraton settings? Use at least 50 so the FFB "locks" the wheel to a stop.

Hmm strange... is it 900 in profiler as well?
Yep. 900 on the profiler and softlock is at 150%.

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@Logi86  - Thanks for taking the time to post here and contribute to the DiRT Rally discussions and feedback.

I think that you've got some valuable racing game enthusiast experience and I'm sure that your posts are read by the devs. Perhaps the tone of your post was a bit too mocking as I read it, but you wouldn't bother posting here if you didn't want the game to change for the better, as you would like it.

I'm by no means a specialist or knowledgable person in this subject - I'm only a gamer who has a perception of what it should feel like it. One thing which I often try to remember is that we, gamers on couches, will never get the same sensations and feedback as in real life racing as our bums are stationary and we don't feel the car behaviour with our body.

Therefore, the feedback provided with the gaming wheels and by game's software will always in my opinion be to some extent a cheat to give us clues on what the car is doing by using just one medium: FFB  motors of the wheel.

I'll have to read up more on this subject to contribute in a better way, but number one feature of the FFB in a game is that the wheel is giving me enough information to feel what the car is doing and to feel in control. In opinion the new FFB in DiRT Rally achieves that and then some.

There is room for improvement - I just can't personally put down in words what that is. Therefore, I agree that detailed feedback on what is good and what is bad and WHY is very valuable to the devs.
I can't yet decide if you are correct with your feedback, but I do like that you don't fall into the camp of "it's super hard to drive - it must be ultra realistic".

I got to meet some of DiRT Rally devs and as I see it the programmer behind overhaul of DiRT car handling code and this new FFB is awesome. Perhaps, he'll find the time to address your comments.

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Everything talked above made me wonder if anybody has tested updated FFB with those 3-DOF / 6-DOF etc. Motion simulation systems. If so, how was it?

Does it give you different feedbacks to wheel vs. Seat or how does it usually work?

I would like to understand is what information you get only from your wheel when driving a real car without other effects you get when driving.
And how this new ffb translates and feels when using proper Motion Simulation seat with wheel. 
Guess i'm wondering if some problems that have been reported here, could be related to those "other" effects translating weirdly to some wheels in default settings ?

Ps. If anybody could suggest some good settings for DFGT it would be great!






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@Logi86  - Thanks for taking the time to post here and contribute to the DiRT Rally discussions and feedback.

I think that you've got some valuable racing game enthusiast experience and I'm sure that your posts are read by the devs. Perhaps the tone of your post was a bit too mocking as I read it, but you wouldn't bother posting here if you didn't want the game to change for the better, as you would like it.

I'm by no means a specialist or knowledgable person in this subject - I'm only a gamer who has a perception of what it should feel like it. One thing which I often try to remember is that we, gamers on couches, will never get the same sensations and feedback as in real life racing as our bums are stationary and we don't feel the car behaviour with our body.

Therefore, the feedback provided with the gaming wheels and by game's software will always in my opinion be to some extent a cheat to give us clues on what the car is doing by using just one medium: FFB  motors of the wheel.

I'll have to read up more on this subject to contribute in a better way, but number one feature of the FFB in a game is that the wheel is giving me enough information to feel what the car is doing and to feel in control. In opinion the new FFB in DiRT Rally achieves that and then some.

There is room for improvement - I just can't personally put down in words what that is. Therefore, I agree that detailed feedback on what is good and what is bad and WHY is very valuable to the devs.
I can't yet decide if you are correct with your feedback, but I do like that you don't fall into the camp of "it's super hard to drive - it must be ultra realistic".

I got to meet some of DiRT Rally devs and as I see it the programmer behind overhaul of DiRT car handling code and this new FFB is awesome. Perhaps, he'll find the time to address your comments.
I agree that I have been a bit mocking and harsh, but this is simply due to myself feeling let down by previous releases and having formed the opinion that within the time limit I know of as outsider the game won't make it into the direction I'd like to see it. In other words I am expecting another let down, but I don't want that and hence I have commented a bit harshly. I should appologize for that, and I do hereby.

Coding any game is no simple feet. Let alone thinking of ways to simulate physics in real-time within the limited hardware specifications of a home computer. So I'm willing to give them time and chew this bitter pill and hope they will make something off of it, as I am sure the developers have read the comment already. They are always lurking and in more places than we know of.

I see we come from two different views on the force feedback subject though. For me the old way of doing things by piling up information into a FFB signal just doesn't cut it anymore. I often get false information that does give a indication of what the car does, but not of what the car wants or needs on input from me as the driver. In fact all those piled up effects are muddling the information for me more often than not.
So in my book less information but from the right sources that indicate what a car wants from me is more valuable than the old way of adding more information to the base FFB signal to give more hints to what a car does.

So in fact we are two completely different drivers. In my opinion I am more of a pro-active driver that wants to listen to what the car wants next, and you are more of a reactive driver that listens for information on what the car has done and basis his input off of that.

Maybe i'll get a chance to make a trip to the studio as well, or I could have a discussion with the developers over at skype at some point. That is if they are interest in hearing my viewpoint on the matter. I am of course not saying they should copy Slightly Mad Studios their work, but I do hope they see value in my viewpoints and opinions and hopefully approach their problems differently and come to better solutions and a better end-result (i.e. a better game).

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Hey people from Codemasters. Is there a chance that you will fix FFB for MOMO? Or you want to leave it like it is? 
Previous FFB was maybe to weak (should be 60% stroneger) but it was really good for MOMO.
Now it's not possible to play. I have to fight with wheel. Not sure, but maybe problem is with that, when im going OUT of oversteer slide, wheel super strongly and TOO LONG is hiting back and that occure with dancing of car from side to side. Im not able to ride without at least 20~ crashes per stage. It's radicoulus guys! :/
Just give me back old FFB and im happy.
Buy MOMO on ebay or something and try it. Obviously you don't have one in studio ;P

For clearnes: i have been calibrated wheel bazillion times, combining with softlock ON/OFF, all possible strenght settings of everything din't help, except turning off  "Self aligning torque", but that is the main stuff of FFB, so turning it off is not a solution of course.. plz help!

If you don't want to change it officialy, maybe you could (unofficialy) put some MOD somewhere with old FFB  ;P

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Yes, you can't drive the MOMO with the default Settings. Well, I can't.

I have tuned down the force feedback effects via advanced settings like this:

Self Aligning Torque: 50

Wheel Friction, Tire Friction: 25

Suspension, Tire Slip, Collision: 20

Soft lock disabled.

Try this and adapt to your liking.

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Lee Williams wrote: "Set your device’s dampening to 100% and set your driver centring springs to off or 0% (depending what options you have available) save any changes, and boot up DiRT Rally."

I did that, but what about "Spring Effect Strength", should I put it to 0 or leave it at 100% in Logitech Profiler? I use G27.



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ketvok said:
Lee Williams wrote: "Set your device’s dampening to 100% and set your driver centring springs to off or 0% (depending what options you have available) save any changes, and boot up DiRT Rally."

I did that, but what about "Spring Effect Strength", should I put it to 0 or leave it at 100% in Logitech Profiler? I use G27.



Yea just leave it at 100.

Or better yet, mess about with it and see what you like :P

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Anyone else getting framerate issues with this patch?  I have  GTX980 running @1440p and was running everything on Ultra at about ~70fps before, and now I'm getting ~25fps, and dropping the graphics to High only bumped it to ~34fps

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Anyone else getting framerate issues with this patch?  I have  GTX980 running @1440p and was running everything on Ultra at about ~70fps before, and now I'm getting ~25fps, and dropping the graphics to High only bumped it to ~34fps
Ignore that - seems to be all games..... GPU Core & Memory utilization is about half what it should be....

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I agree with logi86 here, the FFB and car physics still need work to be considered a good sim. I hope they can concentrate on this until they get it right before moving on. 
I'll take the word of some experienced sim racer over a real life racer when it comes to sims. Real life race drivers always say the game they work on is great, and 90% of the time it's just PR rubbish. 

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DoriT said:
 Real life race drivers always say the game they work on is great, and 90% of the time it's just PR rubbish. 
That's just Ben Collins and ProjectCARS. 

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Ben Colins was hardly there really to be fair. But yeah it probably  was more PR for him. Nicholas Hamilton was much better and was a lot more involved and useful. To be honest P cars is more early access  than complete game atm. Give it another  year and might get it sorted. :)

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The main problem with using real life race/rally drivers is we have no idea if they are any good at sim driving, which is only the same as real life driving once you learn how to interpret it. It can take months to get to that level at first, so these race/rally drivers will ask for changes that makes them feel like they are controlling the car better, but really they could be completely wrong and an experienced sim racer will pick up on this more easily. Now obviously there will be exceptions and some of these race drivers are actually experienced on sims too, but I hope you get what I'm saying. It's very likely real life race/rally drivers can make things worse, considering every game I played that boasted about this for PR has had FFB that is not so good.

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