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Big jump in difficulty between Clubman and Pro

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Posted (edited)

The jump in difficulty between Clubman and Pro is rather large.

I got promoted from Clubman after several attempts, but I can't get in the top ten on Pro. I've done three and a half rallies and I usually finish stages between 12th and 20th, with a few 10th places.

So far on Pro I've finished 12th in Argentina, 13th in New Zealand and 18th in Spain, but on Clubman I came 1st, 2nd and 7th on the same locations.  

Dropping ten places on the same rallies seems like quite a big jump in difficulty. It's a bit disheartening to be so far down the order and it feels like I've gone as far as I can go in My Team.

Edited by WestHam66

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It all depends on your level. I managed to win the Open, Clubman and Pro championships with a big advantage. My first Elite rally was in Sweden and it was a complete disaster, I finished 23rd overall and "blamed" the jump in difficulty. But I managed to recover with a 6th in Monte Carlo, 5th in Finland and a 4th in Argentina. I'm 6th in the championship with 2 rallies to go
The difficulty exists to be overcome, Dirt Rally is the dark souls of racing games, the game has to be really hard, otherwise it would not be fun

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32 minutes ago, blodinho said:

The difficulty exists to be overcome, Dirt Rally is the dark souls of racing games, the game has to be really hard, otherwise it would not be fun

There's a point where it ceases to be fun if you can't improve. It's a video game after all, so it's meant to be fun. Obviously the concept if 'fun' is objective, but when it feels like I have to be perfect just to get 10th place on Pro, then it's no longer fun for me.

I got to Master on Dirt Rally and came 7th on it. I only needed one attempt at each tier to get promoted, so it was probably a bit too easy. The way I drove on Dirt Rally isn't quick enough for Dirt Rally 2.0, so I've had to learn to be faster whilst maintaining control. I use a controller and it feels like the game isn't designed to be played with one, whereas Dirt Rally did. It might have been too easy, but at least I enjoyed it.

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43 minutes ago, WestHam66 said:

There's a point where it ceases to be fun if you can't improve. It's a video game after all, so it's meant to be fun. Obviously the concept if 'fun' is objective, but when it feels like I have to be perfect just to get 10th place on Pro, then it's no longer fun for me.

I got to Master on Dirt Rally and came 7th on it. I only needed one attempt at each tier to get promoted, so it was probably a bit too easy. The way I drove on Dirt Rally isn't quick enough for Dirt Rally 2.0, so I've had to learn to be faster whilst maintaining control. I use a controller and it feels like the game isn't designed to be played with one, whereas Dirt Rally did. It might have been too easy, but at least I enjoyed it.

Excuses. Lots of excuses.

I play with a controller and I am able to beat Masters and there is still room for more.
And I am not even close to the top leaderboard guys.

Don't waste your time with excuses and complaining, focus on getting better.
If you have trouble getting better, focus on a specific car.

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One basic question: Are you in a new car after you get promoted?

If you have switched, you may be comparatively slower because you've gone from driving a car with a few upgrades to driving one with none, in addition to the bump in AI difficulty.

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11 hours ago, WestHam66 said:

I use a controller and it feels like the game isn't designed to be played with one, whereas Dirt Rally did.

I used a controller for a year, in fact I made a guide on it.

My leaderboard times were reasonably high with a pad.

 

 

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9 hours ago, UnderclassGDfan said:

@PJTierney PJ, PJ, PJ...you quoted the wrong guy.
I never said that. I would never say that.

#fake news by @PJTierney 🤣

I pulled the quote from when you quoted @WestHam66, so it took your tag instead 🙃

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, PJTierney said:

One basic question: Are you in a new car after you get promoted?

If you have switched, you may be comparatively slower because you've gone from driving a car with a few upgrades to driving one with none, in addition to the bump in AI difficulty.

I've used the same car for all my attempts at Clubman and Pro, so six championships.

Edited by WestHam66

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, UnderclassGDfan said:

Excuses. Lots of excuses.

I play with a controller and I am able to beat Masters and there is still room for more.
And I am not even close to the top leaderboard guys.

Don't waste your time with excuses and complaining, focus on getting better.
If you have trouble getting better, focus on a specific car.

"Focus on getting better" doesn't help when you provide no advice on how I can get better. You might as well have just said 'git gud'

Edited by WestHam66
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13 minutes ago, WestHam66 said:

"Focus on getting better" doesn't help when you provide no advice on how I can get better. You might as well have just said 'git gud'

Because it's pretty obvious what to do.
It's a racing game.

The more you drive, the better you get.

Sure, it can help to change the controller-settings a bit, or a good tuning setup. But you don't really need that, everything on default is good enough to a certain point, wich you definitely didn't reached yet.

Maybe try a different camera, I play in cockpit-view, I would be a lot slower in 3rd person.

And like I said: focus on one car. Changing them all the time can be confusing, because they often have different reactions on input.
Best would be either H1 FWD (Cooper S or Fulvia) or R5 (Space Star, Fabia or Polo). R5 being very fast, but the cars are pretty easy to drive.
Just stick to one specific R5 and play with it for a while.

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On 6/3/2020 at 7:27 AM, WestHam66 said:

The jump in difficulty between Clubman and Pro is rather large.

I got promoted from Clubman after several attempts, but I can't get in the top ten on Pro. I've done three and a half rallies and I usually finish stages between 12th and 20th, with a few 10th places.

So far on Pro I've finished 12th in Argentina, 13th in New Zealand and 18th in Spain, but on Clubman I came 1st, 2nd and 7th on the same locations.  

Dropping ten places on the same rallies seems like quite a big jump in difficulty. It's a bit disheartening to be so far down the order and it feels like I've gone as far as I can go in My Team.

The lack of difficulty control is why I don't play the career mode at all, and just run custom championships. Really disappointing because I love playing career modes, but I like to find a difficulty I can play on and just have fun, and stick with that, and that just isn't possible with DR 2.0

The whole "just practice and get better!" is fine for people who only play one game, or have no life lol, but it doesn't work for me, I'll play the hell out of a game for a few weeks and then not touch it again for 6 months, and then come back and play it again. This isn't viable with Dirts career mode, because on return I'll just get destroyed if I don't waste a bunch of time trying to get back where I was in free play before continuing... By which point I move on to something else anyway lmao.

Its a terrible way to set up a career mode. A shame too, because other than that, this is one of the best rally games ever made imo, which is probably why even without a proper career mode, I've still managed to put a lot of time into it playing alone lol.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, DarkRedslayer said:

The lack of difficulty control is why I don't play the career mode at all, and just run custom championships. Really disappointing because I love playing career modes, but I like to find a difficulty I can play on and just have fun, and stick with that, and that just isn't possible with DR 2.0

The whole "just practice and get better!" is fine for people who only play one game, or have no life lol, but it doesn't work for me, I'll play the hell out of a game for a few weeks and then not touch it again for 6 months, and then come back and play it again. This isn't viable with Dirts career mode, because on return I'll just get destroyed if I don't waste a bunch of time trying to get back where I was in free play before continuing... By which point I move on to something else anyway lmao.

Its a terrible way to set up a career mode. A shame too, because other than that, this is one of the best rally games ever made imo, which is probably why even without a proper career mode, I've still managed to put a lot of time into it playing alone lol.

I started a custom championship yesterday and I'm already enjoying it more than career. I've put the difficulty at a level where it's a challenge to do well, but I'm not always in the bottom half after doing what seemed like a decent time, as was happening on Pro.

I dig your "have no life" comment... 😂

Edited by WestHam66
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The AI in this game can really be described in one single word: TERRIBLE. The CPUs are not affected by weather nor time of day. Some countries, like Poland, the CPUs are extremely fast compared to other locations, even on easiest settings, the same goes for some of the car classes like H2FWD.

I allways ends up as number 17 or lower in the AI challenges in My Team, and ends up as DNF in RX weekly challenges. I managed to reach Pro-level in rally, just to get religated to clubman the next season. So, I am mostly staying away from anything that has any kind of AI in it in «My Team». Still I play this mode the most (because it is the only mode you can track your progress), and by now I have driven some 30,000 km and reach 73,000,000 Cr after having bought and fully upgraded every rally in the game. And still I’m not able to beat the AI!

I have been fiddling with the game setups and with car setups, but for me, it has actually no effect whatever I do. So I’ve ended up playing the game with standard DualShock4 with absolutely no assists, manual gearshifting and cockpit view showing the steeringwheel. Allways remember to use soft tyres, with two exceptions 1) Wet in Spain or Germany, then it’s wet tyres, 2) Allways winter tyres in Monte Carlo. As for car setup, I can sum up that experience with the same experience I got when I went from automatic gears to manual: It had an impact on my driving from quite wild to more calm driving with less damage to the car, but my times are the same - no improvements. So why bother? I have praticed a lot, but the AI is still a long way ahead. So my experience, as a person that enjoy simulators and as a rally enthusiast, this game fails horribly when it comes to AI.

 

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12 hours ago, DarkRedslayer said:

The whole "just practice and get better!" is fine for people who only play one game, or have no life lol, 

Childish comment. If I had no life, I couldn't write these words.

And I play 3 games at the moment on 3 different consoles, DR2.0 being my regular game playing it nearly everyday.
Theres not much else to do for me in the current time.

52 minutes ago, Kjell007 said:

2) Allways winter tyres in Monte Carlo. 

Not always. If the next leg is only on stages with asphalt and no ice/snow, then softs are much better.
That includes 4 out of the 12 stages, but can't remember the stage names right now.

And yes, the AI is terrible balanced in that game, Rally and RX.
Especially H2 FWD and R2 if I remember correctly and yeah, Poland being one of the worst stages regarding this.

But there is still a lot of room for improvement if you can't promote from Pro to Elite.
It starts getting really frustrating from Elite onwards, because times getting close to top leaderboard positions, wich is ridiculous.

A better career mode is always welcome, but the "closed" difficulties on My Team career is not a bad idea in my point of view, just could have been better designed.
I need a forced challenge on me like the Colin McRae scenarios to push my skills to the limit.

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3 hours ago, UnderclassGDfan said:

Childish comment. If I had no life, I couldn't write these words.

And I play 3 games at the moment on 3 different consoles, DR2.0 being my regular game playing it nearly everyday.

Don't get reeled in!

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Ai is indeed strange in DR2. I breezed through open club and pro, got really challenged in elite, and masters is nothing like other racing games i played. It's like go stupid_worldrecord_fast or go home. It may be a good thing for a video game. I am not complaining. But when i look at fast wr runs and i compare them with real life wrc driving - wrc is way slower. Is it just me? 

I can get a stage win in masters if i had like 20 time trial runs in that very stage. If i had enough time and motivation - i could've done enough test runs and learn enough stages, but since there's no motivation and that is somehow unlike real rally as i understand it - i choose not to go through all that grinding.

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On 6/4/2020 at 3:20 PM, UnderclassGDfan said:

I play in cockpit-view, I would be a lot slower in 3rd person.

This is an interesting point of view that deviates significantly from mine. I use cockpit view showing the steering wheel to get the authentic feel. 3rd person view is faster for me, but I want the driving experience as realistic as it can be using the stock controller on my PS4. 

I went on and started a clubman career championship with the Peugeot 206 (2000cc) today, and half way through I’m 4th with 2nd place in New Zealand (30 sec behind), 10th in USA (1 minute 30 sec behind the winner) and 11th in Finland (2 minutes behind the winner). With over 30,000 km behind the wheels in this game, but still minutes behind. And this is supposed to be easy?! To design a game to be competitive with the top 5% gamers is just stupid! The top players can compete with each other in eSports or whatever - no need for CPUs. The CPUs and their AI are there for the not-so-good players, the completionists, the trophy hunters, those who love authensity and realism (like myself) and all other normal people who has paid good money for the game.

 

2F1FC4A7-AB6A-4BF8-BEEF-5AF41B49A4D4.jpeg

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6 hours ago, UnderclassGDfan said:

I need a forced challenge on me like the Colin McRae scenarios to push my skills to the limit.

That brings me to another thing: I’m not that much into Rallycross but to complete the game and get the platinum I had to play some RX. But still I wanted to give RX another shot with season 4, but with trophies like «Sunday driver» and «Launch event», Codemasters effectively killed RX so that part is game over for me. The same goes for the «...Flatout» trophy which has killed all my interest for the Colin McRae scenarios. For a simulator game, the trophies should be focused on experiencing all parts of the game, not to beat insane and meaningless records which just encourage arcade behaviour and a Need for Speed feeling. 🤢

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11 hours ago, Kjell007 said:

«Launch event»

This may help:

 

Also, there's a sneaky way to get it, your lap doesn't have to be "clean" 😉 

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On 6/7/2020 at 10:45 AM, UnderclassGDfan said:

Childish comment. If I had no life, I couldn't write these words.

And I play 3 games at the moment on 3 different consoles, DR2.0 being my regular game playing it nearly everyday.
Theres not much else to do for me in the current time.

 

Anyone who tells someone to "just practice and get better" doesn't deserve anything more than a childish comment, takes someone with a childish mindset to even tell someone that without even knowing their living situation.

 

And some people simply won't get better beyond a certain point. If everyone could just practice and get better infinitely, there would be no reason for top drivers/sports players to get paid a lot lol. And just because someone isn't great at a game, doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to enjoy it.

I've set top 100 times on some stages, and top 1000 on most in R5 class, so this isn't bias speaking, I just genuinely don't like people who tell others to "just get better" and I think they are some of the worst members of the sim racing community.

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Everybody has a skill ceiling, but many perceived skill ceilings can be broken with new knowledge.

Seat time alone won't make a driver significantly faster, but seat time along with active learning and analysis can help enormously.

To anyone struggling, I would recommend first watching the DiRT Rally School; there may be some basic things there that you've overlooked.

Following that, check out the more advanced tutorials from DiRT Rally and then the Team O'Neil Rally School.

 

 

 

 

 

Bonus, watch this:

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/7/2020 at 5:23 PM, Kjell007 said:

With over 30,000 km behind the wheels in this game, but still minutes behind. And this is supposed to be easy?!

Honestly, and I'm not trying to sound like a **** here, it seems like you've wasted tens of thousands of km's by driving without a purpose or clear goal.

With that much distance behind the wheel and that much seat time, you should be able to beat Clubman pretty comfortably. It sounds like you've just been driving, not actively driving. What I mean by that is you are not analyzing what you did wrong or where you can be faster. You aren't trying to do anything to increase your skill ceiling, you're just driving hoping something just changes within you and you're faster.

Have you ever stopped to watch a twitch/youtube run of a stage you really like and see how someone faster than you would drive it? Have you ever sat down in time trials and actively tried to get much faster on a specific stage? Somewhere you can practice driving very aggressively and test out new techniques? No not DirtFish, that location only helps precision but not stage speed. 

Quote

The CPUs and their AI are there for the not-so-good players

You also seem to want to exclude people from using a part of the game. CPUs and AI aren't meant for the fastest drivers? Since when? When has "legendary" or "insane" difficulty ever been in any game and not been designed for the top players? Sure, 100% AI shouldn't be balanced against the eSport drivers (and it isn't; the AI times are not even close and much slower) but it also shouldn't be so easy that everyone can stroll through the final difficulty. That was one of the biggest complaints in DR1 - the AI was pathetically slow at Masters. They fixed that for DR2.0

Edited by Mike Dee
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@Mike Dee, you obviously drive to compete, I play the game as a rally enthusiast who like realism and authentisity. I compete against myself and against an AI that suits my preferences. Sometimes I want the AI to be better than me, sometimes I want the AI to be be slower than me, and sometimes I want it to be more careful than aggressive etc. I have seen plenty of youtube videos of really good drivers in DR2.0 and I’m not impressed: The times are good, but it looks like someone driving a Need for Speed game: The pro gamers reveiles the shortcommings of the physics and the handling model, in other words: It looks UNREALISTIC! 😁👎🏻

As for rambling about exluding others: It takes one to know one. Instead of being ignorant, you should be thankfull for all the normal people who buys rally games. Without them, 95% of the revenue would have been gone and there would not have been anything called Dirt Rally. They tried making a «realistic» rally game back in 2003 called Richard Burns Rally, which was a perfect example of «the more difficult, the more realistic». Fact is that the game was almost undriveable to the average Joe, even with a steeringwheel, and what happened? Shortly after the release the developer went bankrupt. You see, money don’t grow on trees. 😉

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22 minutes ago, Kjell007 said:

The times are good, but it looks like someone driving a Need for Speed game: The pro gamers reveiles the shortcommings of the physics and the handling model, in other words: It looks UNREALISTIC!

You say it's like someone driving NFS but you don't say why it appears that way to you. Is it the lines they take? Is it the extreme precision and car control? You need to elaborate on what seems so unrealistic. At least provide a link.

For example here is a video from our very own Community Manager PJ doing a run in the 2000cc at Scotland posting a top 250 time. Is his run unrealistic or unauthentic to you? That run would definitely be able to beat Clubman, Pro, and Elite - probably even getting him top 5 in a Masters Championship if not winning it. Sure he is using a smaller wheel rotation due to his F1 rim, but for the S4 it isn't going to magically make you jump from Clubman pace to Master pace by switching from 540° to 360°

 

37 minutes ago, Kjell007 said:

Instead of being ignorant, you should be thankfull for all the normal people who buys rally games.

Where do you get the idea I am not thankful to them? All I am saying is that your idea that the fastest drivers should just compete online or in esports is marginalizing that playerbase as well. Some of the fastest drivers in Dirt really don't enjoy competing online or in clubs anymore. They want to kick back and just race a custom championship like everyone else, recreating cool scenarios and historic moments. That is why there is such a big range in the AI, and that the hardest difficulties should be designed to keep even the fastest drivers on their toes. No one wants Clubman or Pro to be impossible for 90% of drivers to beat, but a lot of us don't want to see Elite and Master watered down just so more players can beat them.

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