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Big jump in difficulty between Clubman and Pro

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16 hours ago, Mike Dee said:

With that much distance behind the wheel and that much seat time, you should be able to beat Clubman pretty comfortably. It sounds like you've just been driving, not actively driving. What I mean by that is you are not analyzing what you did wrong or where you can be faster. You aren't trying to do anything to increase your skill ceiling, you're just driving hoping something just changes within you and you're faster.

I already linked to the Emptybox video which explains this, but to give a more practical example (which is also referenced briefly in my SUBARU video):

 

  1. Go to Time Trial
  2. Drive a few runs until you have put in a clean time
  3. Look at the Leaderboard
  4. Find a guy who is 1 second faster than you and set them as a Ghost
  5. Drive again until you beat that Ghost
  6. Repeat steps 4 and 5 until you reach your skill ceiling

 

On my stream last Friday I was driving the Porsche 911 SC RS, the same car and Stage I drove for the Car of the Week video on DIRT's YouTube.

In less than 2 hours I was able to gain 12 seconds with this method, and take my relative pace in that car from Clumban level to Masters.

I even beat @Mike Dee's time on that Stage, and since he's one of the best RWD drivers I know, that's a real accomplishment, and it came from driving with a tangible goal in mind.

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On 6/10/2020 at 9:58 AM, PJTierney said:

I already linked to the Emptybox video which explains this, but to give a more practical example (which is also referenced briefly in my SUBARU video):

 

  1. Go to Time Trial
  2. Drive a few runs until you have put in a clean time
  3. Look at the Leaderboard
  4. Find a guy who is 1 second faster than you and set them as a Ghost
  5. Drive again until you beat that Ghost
  6. Repeat steps 4 and 5 until you reach your skill ceiling

 

On my stream last Friday I was driving the Porsche 911 SC RS, the same car and Stage I drove for the Car of the Week video on DIRT's YouTube.

In less than 2 hours I was able to gain 12 seconds with this method, and take my relative pace in that car from Clumban level to Masters.

I even beat @Mike Dee's time on that Stage, and since he's one of the best RWD drivers I know, that's a real accomplishment, and it came from driving with a tangible goal in mind.

I appreciate your videos and your tips above, which can be really usefull. Still, there is a huge difference in the approach of this game. I enjoy the game as a rally simulator, but your and @Mike Dee’s approach is to play the game as a racing simulator. In my opinion that is a BIG difference. My dream is that there will be a rally game in the future where there are stages with a distances of up to 40 - 50 kilometres each, and where endurance is the key issue, not «how fast can I possibly be». But Oliver Solberg provided a little taste of my dream in the ongoing Wales rally in Solberg World Cup, when he put all the four longest stages in one go without a visit to the service area, in which force you to drive really careful. 😁

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On 6/10/2020 at 12:44 AM, Mike Dee said:

Where do you get the idea I am not thankful to them? All I am saying is that your idea that the fastest drivers should just compete online or in esports is marginalizing that playerbase as well. Some of the fastest drivers in Dirt really don't enjoy competing online or in clubs anymore. They want to kick back and just race a custom championship like everyone else, recreating cool scenarios and historic moments. That is why there is such a big range in the AI, and that the hardest difficulties should be designed to keep even the fastest drivers on their toes. No one wants Clubman or Pro to be impossible for 90% of drivers to beat, but a lot of us don't want to see Elite and Master watered down just so more players can beat them.

The fastest drivers ARE marginalized per definition. Having said that, I’ve never had any opinions regarding Elite and Master, but I wouldn’t mind if there were Legendary and Insane too. Why not put in G.O.A.T. as well at 200% for those who are real machos. All I am saying is that the lower levels are way too hard for the average player. So why not let us have «I am too young to die» and «Extremely Easy» before the «Very Easy»-level starts? It is not the same thing as saying I want the higher levels watered down - I really don’t understand how you came up with that??

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2 hours ago, Kjell007 said:

but I wouldn’t mind if there were Legendary and Insane too

That is pretty much what Elite and Master are - Master is literally based off of in-house times from Jon and the fastest drivers at CM. Sure there could be more difficulties, and in custom there are (Open in My Team uses "Easy" AI I believe which is around 50%), but for My Team 5 tiers already feels like enough to me. Adding more just for the sake of even easier initial difficulties feels... tedious? Maybe if they had a placement rally or something to help get you into the right tier from the start more than 5 would be ok. But I wouldn't personally want any more in the current format. As for the lower levels being too hard, I guess I have no choice but to really defer to your judgement because I thought they weren't that bad. They are minutes behind the "fast pace" on any stage, hell I'm pretty sure we even tested if you could beat 70% AI in R5s without ever leaving 4th gear and it was doable. So I don't really feel like saying they are way too hard.

2 hours ago, Kjell007 said:

It is not the same thing as saying I want the higher levels watered down - I really don’t understand how you came up with that??

literally from your post on the previous page where you say AI is not for the fast drivers

On 6/7/2020 at 5:23 PM, Kjell007 said:

The top players can compete with each other in eSports or whatever - no need for CPUs. The CPUs and their AI are there for the not-so-good players

You don't need to be a top player (read: esport try-hard/pro/whatever you want to call it) to beat Master. Master is still pretty significantly behind the WR's. So for everyone who is fast, but not esport fast, having very challenging AI is awesome. I understand now that you are only talking about the lower difficulties, but up until this point all you have said was "the AI is terrible" which most will understand as all of the AI. 

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Posted (edited)

@Mike Dee, It is enough for you, yes, but by starting the career mode at 50%, exclude maybe 80% of the players. This could have worked if it hadn’t been for the fact that the only place you can track your progress is in My Team where you got credits and where the accumulators for driven kilometres (odometer) per car are working!

The AI IS terrible in this game, firstly because of the flaws I mentioned before in this thread, and secondly because for MOST PEOPLE they are non-exsistant because they are way ahead. So how can I judge something that is out of reach for me??

I don’t understand the idea that a game has to have extreme AI to be accepted as a sim game. The handling and the physics in this game are top notch realism wise as of today, and I think normal people can relate to that fact and enjoy the game even though their name isn’t Jon or Mike Dee. Why should Codemasters rob them of the enjoyment of the career mode in My Team? That really puzzles me. 🙄

 

Edited by Kjell007

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Posted (edited)
On 6/14/2020 at 6:47 PM, Kjell007 said:

The AI IS terrible in this game, firstly because of the flaws I mentioned before in this thread

And this is where I'm telling you, you are flat out wrong. I can show you indisputable evidence. There is almost a full 20 second difference between DRY and WET pace. And we see another 20 second gap between Day/Dry and Night/Dry pacing (ignoring the usual 1 "fast" driver every group has). So the AI is affected by the environment and time of of day. I can't find anything else where you talk about "flaws you have mentioned before". The only thing you talk about is the AI being too fast, and it not being affected by weather or time of day. Give me something tangible that you don't like about the AI and we can actually discuss it. For now the only thing you've complained about has been proven to not work the way you describe.

Here is a 50% AI pace at Chandler's Creek Reverse, Australia (DAY / DRY) - 7:33.009
image.thumb.png.b886419ee2a176fb691c0239f849e0e9.png

 

Here is a 50% AI pace at Chandler's Creek Reverse, Australia (DAY / SHOWERS) - 7:52.218
image.thumb.png.1e018bd5951d0f1fa9df34cf0da22243.png

 

Here is a 50% AI pace at Chandler's Creek Reverse, Australia (NIGHT / DRY) - 7:52.800 (IGNORING P1 7:34.767)

image.thumb.png.30399cd47edb76ab6e750cd4a55466a3.png

 

The other thing is you are saying the AI is insanely hard/unbeatable. The reality is that I've watch a lot of players go from not being able to beat Open/Clubman to winning Pro in only a few months. The AI is not that unreasonable until you hit Elite+ but it definitely will be fast. You have enough hours and KM's in this game that I think the issue is either in how you are approaching the game or your input settings - something is wrong/misconfigured that is causing you more problems than the rest of the playerbase. 

Edited by Mike Dee
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@Mike Dee, my tests were done in Spain and Poland, several times last year using N4/R4 and H2FWD, to see if they would patch it, but nope. You have something from Australia for group A. It is well known that the times in Poland is way faster than the other countries? Why? It is also known that H2FWD and R2 have times that is faster and more difficult to beat. Why? Or have these issues been patched lately? No, the game is very unbalanced in this aspect and for those of us that are slow, it is REALLY TERRIBLE and AWFUL.

AND it is unbalanced since the My Team events and championships starts at 50%, which is actually just plain stupid. But of course in your eyes this isn’t a problem because it suits you, so if someone try to voice out an opinion it just «complaining without insputable evidence» which shows your extremely arrogant attitude. I’m just waiting for you to tell me to wait for Dirt5 because it will suit me better, right?

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Posted (edited)
On 6/7/2020 at 8:24 PM, navernoe said:

But when i look at fast wr runs and i compare them with real life wrc driving - wrc is way slower. Is it just me? 

I can get a stage win in masters if i had like 20 time trial runs in that very stage. If i had enough time and motivation - i could've done enough test runs and learn enough stages, but since there's no motivation and that is somehow unlike real rally as i understand it - i choose not to go through all that grinding.

This is absolute normal.

1a) In this game are unrealistic cuts on many stages, wich is a flaw by the developer. Hopefully they have this in mind for the next title.
1b) It is absolutely normal that game runs are much faster und risky, because...IT'S STILL A GAME GUYS! In real life they can't do the absolute physical limit, because a crash can't be fixed with a simple restart.

2. We hardcore players also need a difficulty to play with. So it doesn't get boring. Saying for us is eSports and the clubs-Feature is egoistic and unfair.
I also want a challenge in career.

"Open" is really easy compared to "Masters", they could put more leagues between them, but that would mean more championships to play through until I get challenged.

The best option would be to put an option to choose either to stay in the league you are in or rank up, if you are in the top 3.
So you don't get automatically get upvoted and downvoted all the time, if the next league is too hard.

On 6/7/2020 at 11:23 PM, Kjell007 said:

With over 30,000 km behind the wheels in this game, but still minutes behind. And this is supposed to be easy?! To design a game to be competitive with the top 5% gamers is just stupid! The top players can compete with each other in eSports or whatever - no need for CPUs. The CPUs and their AI are there for the not-so-good players, the completionists, the trophy hunters, those who love authensity and realism (like myself) and all other normal people who has paid good money for the game.

We have nearly the same amount of credits (around 74.5 million credits on my account) and I simply don't get your problem.
I don't mean this arrogant, but I just got better over time while playing. I simply can't give advice how to get better except of focusing on one car for a while, this helped me understand the physics better.
My main problem is not speed, but being flawless through a run.

And again, it is really egoistic to exclude faster drivers from game modes with CPU.
I want to drive career races like you sometimes and "Masters" is nearly perfect for me.

On 6/7/2020 at 11:55 PM, Kjell007 said:

That brings me to another thing: I’m not that much into Rallycross but to complete the game and get the platinum I had to play some RX. But still I wanted to give RX another shot with season 4, but with trophies like «Sunday driver» and «Launch event», Codemasters effectively killed RX so that part is game over for me. The same goes for the «...Flatout» trophy which has killed all my interest for the Colin McRae scenarios. For a simulator game, the trophies should be focused on experiencing all parts of the game, not to beat insane and meaningless records which just encourage arcade behaviour and a Need for Speed feeling. 🤢

A difficult achievement killed your motivation for an entire game mode?
The reason for achievements should do the exact opposite...

I played even more at the time of the new Colin achievements, because I really, really wanted them.

And you don't need one single cut or arcadic behaviour to get these achievements done.
I refuse to use rediculous cuts in this game at all, even if they not the fastest way possible, because they are not authentic.

On 6/9/2020 at 12:08 AM, DarkRedslayer said:

Anyone who tells someone to "just practice and get better" doesn't deserve anything more than a childish comment, takes someone with a childish mindset to even tell someone that without even knowing their living situation.

 

And some people simply won't get better beyond a certain point. If everyone could just practice and get better infinitely, there would be no reason for top drivers/sports players to get paid a lot lol. And just because someone isn't great at a game, doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to enjoy it.

I've set top 100 times on some stages, and top 1000 on most in R5 class, so this isn't bias speaking, I just genuinely don't like people who tell others to "just get better" and I think they are some of the worst members of the sim racing community.

Ah come on. Maybe it sounded arrogant, but it wasn't meant like that.
It's a racing game after all. What advice do you expect here?
Best way is experience and maybe to look at ghost times in time trial.

And I think most people can get MUCH better, if they would change there mindset.
This "complain instead of pushing yourself"-mentality nowadays is just disgusting.

Though I get that some people just wanna have fun, but there are difficulties for that too in the game.
But they could be optimised, yeah, see above.

On 6/10/2020 at 12:03 AM, Kjell007 said:

The times are good, but it looks like someone driving a Need for Speed game: The pro gamers reveiles the shortcommings of the physics and the handling model, in other words: It looks UNREALISTIC! 😁👎🏻

As for rambling about exluding others: It takes one to know one. Instead of being ignorant, you should be thankfull for all the normal people who buys rally games. Without them, 95% of the revenue would have been gone and there would not have been anything called Dirt Rally. They tried making a «realistic» rally game back in 2003 called Richard Burns Rally, which was a perfect example of «the more difficult, the more realistic». Fact is that the game was almost undriveable to the average Joe, even with a steeringwheel, and what happened? Shortly after the release the developer went bankrupt. You see, money don’t grow on trees. 😉

1) Some cuts look unrealistic, yeah, should be adressed by the developers, but besides that? I dont' see Need for Speed-like behaviour in the game.
They just drive at the absolute limit, because they don't risk there lifes while doing it.

2) Thanks to those players, we get a DiRT 5 that looks like a Forza Horizon 4-rip off. Errgh.
There are enough players out there, who want a challenge...hopefully.

Edited by UnderclassGDfan

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3 hours ago, UnderclassGDfan said:

It is absolutely normal that game runs are much faster und risky, because...IT'S STILL A GAME GUYS! In real life they can't do the absolute physical limit, because a crash can't be fixed with a simple restart.

Aha, but I want authenticity, so I drive carefully and don’t drive «like it is a game»! Big difference, and maybe now you understand why I say that this game encourage an arcade behaviour? If I could get a slider to decide the level of difficulty that suits MY driving style and the level of how much I want to push myself, I would be happy. Sometimes I want to win comfortably, other times I want to have a level AI to me, and sometimes I want to really struggle, but that should be up to me to decide, BECAUSE THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A RALLY SIMULATOR, right? Another dope thing in DR2.0 is the 4 second penalty for resetting you car after being off the road. The game should encourage you to actually get out of that bush, ditch or whatever you have gotten into, and onto the road to continue by yourself. That’s why the cars have reverse. 😁 The last option should be to reset the car, and you should get at least 1 minute penalty, that is twice as much as changing a tyre. This is what I call arcade stuff that suits better in Dirt 5 and Grid than in DR2.0. And before anyone starts arresting me: This penalty should of course be optional such as everything else in a proper simulator game.

And that thing about excluding faster drivers from CPUs is just an excuse for being ignorant to people with a different view than yourself. I mean: It would be a hassle to have a couple of easier tiers because there will be «more championships to play through». Seriously?? You have probably 35,000 km ++ behind the wheels, and you worry about a couple of dozen stages for a total of 200 km extra? Come on! 🙄 Read my posts again, and you’ll see that I suggests even harder CPUs for the hardcore masochists!

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6 minutes ago, Kjell007 said:

Aha, but I want authenticity, so I drive carefully and don’t drive «like it is a game»! Big difference, and maybe now you understand why I say that this game encourage an arcade behaviour?

Errm, no.
You still seem to not understand that as long this is a game, that there will always people, who drive like crazy to get to the limits.
There's not a single game out there, wich has at least a decent playerbase, were this is not possible.

But I understand that you are up for the real rally thing, like driving careful enough to not crash, but still fast = authentic.
Still possible with the mechanics in-game and still winning.
I am the best example: not the fastest, but fast enough. And my driving style is probably more like yours, then those guys, who drive like crazy.

12 minutes ago, Kjell007 said:

If I could get a slider to decide the level of difficulty that suits MY driving style and the level of how much I want to push myself, I would be happy. Sometimes I want to win comfortably, other times I want to have a level AI to me, and sometimes I want to really struggle, but that should be up to me to decide, BECAUSE THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE A RALLY SIMULATOR, right?

I see that differently, but get your point.
Restriction is sometimes a motivation.
If you can decide the difficulty like you can in custom championships, what's the point of the career mode at all?
It's basically the only difference and motivation: get up the tiers!

16 minutes ago, Kjell007 said:

Another dope thing in DR2.0 is the 4 second penalty for resetting you car after being off the road. The game should encourage you to actually get out of that bush, ditch or whatever you have gotten into, and onto the road to continue by yourself. That’s why the cars have reverse. 😁 The last option should be to reset the car, and you should get at least 1 minute penalty, that is twice as much as changing a tyre. This is what I call arcade stuff that suits better in Dirt 5 and Grid than in DR2.0. And before anyone starts arresting me: This penalty should of course be optional such as everything else in a proper simulator game.

Strange.
On the one side you don't want a challenge, but this then is too easy for you?
1 minute penalties for 1 mistake on a track were you left the road?
This would ruin rallies in career very frequently and would be much more frustrating than a too high difficulty.

And: You CAN get a 1 minute penalty for leaving the track. It depends how fast you left the track and how far away you are from it, when you get resetted.
I often get 10, 12, sometimes even 20 seconds. One time in Finland I got a minute because I overshoot a square left basically without braking at all.

But yes, the auto-reset is annoying. Should be much more far away from track than it is like now.
But then they need time-penalties "on the fly" for cutting corners without resetting the car.
Or more objects on possible cuts to prevent it.

25 minutes ago, Kjell007 said:

And that thing about excluding faster drivers from CPUs is just an excuse for being ignorant to people with a different view than yourself. I mean: It would be a hassle to have a couple of easier tiers because there will be «more championships to play through». Seriously?? You have probably 35,000 km ++ behind the wheels, and you worry about a couple of dozen stages for a total of 200 km extra? Come on! 🙄 Read my posts again, and you’ll see that I suggests even harder CPUs for the hardcore masochists!

Do you read what I wrote? Or do you only read what suits to your argument?
I already said what they could do to make it easier for slower drivers.
There is really no need for an even easier tier than open, it is just not very well balanced on some locations in specific classes, there's no doubt about that.
It's already 5 tiers. How many different tiers are enough?
I don't want to drive through 5 tiers to get to a decent challenge.

BUT, I could deal with that, if it would be say 10.
But only if the game recognises my speed after the first championship and puts me automatically in a tier that suits my speed after the first championship. And then continues on the classic way how it is now.

But to be honest, I hope they complete re-think career mode anyway.
I want it offline. I want a deeper career with sponsors, team-contracts and so on.
One of my favourite racing games from my childhood was "World Driver Championship" on the N64.
You had to sign to a team and fullfill there expectations, wich got harder and harder over time as you move up to better teams fighting for the championship at the end.
And if you were on the top of the championship you got promoted into the better and faster league with new teams, cars and harder tracks.
And started youre career at a new team from behind again.

THIS, CODEMASTERS, IS A CAREER MODE!

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I see you and your friends just don’t want to understand. I’ll sum it up: 

I want authenticity and a rally game that suits a broad audience which can compete and experience wins and be a champion regardless of skill, and at the same time include levels of AI and the ability to turn off all driving aids and the possibility to crank up penalties like driving off road into bushes, punctures etc. There is no need to dumb down the physics or handling, because if it is good, people will recognise it, even the not so good players as long as you have some interest in driving and motorsports. I want more interaction where you can see the drivers change the tyres after punctures, and see people help you and your car getting out of the ditch or a tree. That is authenticity to me. This is also the reason for me to enter the Expert DiRT club, and not the Official DiRT which is for arcade racers and I don’t want to race against people using bonnet view, bumber view or other outside views. 😁 

As for the career mode in DR2.0 (and DR), it is a strange creation, and as I said earlier, if it hadn’t been for the possibility to track your progress (with credits and a working odometer), I would never have touched it. Why can’t DR track progress like other racing titles? Why must time trial and my records be seperated from everything else in the game?

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And one more thing, any racing game, including this rally title, you should be able to play casually. Like myself sitting comfortably in my coach using a stock controller. 😉

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I started playing this game when it was released in PS Plus and don't find clubman that difficult. I will definitely start struggling in Pro and expect myself to either drop back to Clubman or just scrap by and not get relegated. That is where my skill ceiling is at currently and doesn't mean it needs to be struck there forever by any means.

I am sitting in my couch and playing with a PS4 controller and its not that hard. I am at the top of the leaderboard in Clubman and usually 5-10 seconds ahead of the AI in most races if I drive well.

If I don't drive well I finish 5-10 seconds behind them and if I really mess up then it gets worse. 

For the record I was a sim racing noob when I started playing this game and I have no previous history of playing any sim racing games. I have only played arcade racing games before.

If you are complaining about Clubman AI being difficult then getting better is your only course of action and I am no great driver trust me. I am 30-60 seconds behind the top of the leaderboard in most races and still finishing on top or at least getting podium on most races.

The game is not perfect but winning on Clubman is not as hard as it seems.

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