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Damn these guys are good!


RacerRune

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With almost machine like precision, they must be some of the most skilled drivers in the community!

Some claim they cheat, but @justbiglee has assured us that it has been looked into, so they must must have been evaluated and just be the best drivers.
I want to thank Codemasters for their due diligence in their marked stance on cheaters, and their clear reporting lines for the community, I am sure this is reflected in the number of people participating in the daily events!

Well done Gentlemen!

@REXY and @Sylvesterp could you guys upload some videos so that we others can learn from you guys?

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Funny thing is that it's actually our own fault that guys like these are allowed to ruin online gaming for everybody.

If consumers made a clear stance, and made their voices heard, there is no way for developers to just ignore these issues, as they do.

Alas we have become lethargic and most seem to think this is just a part of gaming, so there is really no way to expect any immediate improvement. 

What's confusing to me is that when you look at a model like World of tanks, (say what you will about the game, its a MONUMENTAL success in the market place) where cheating is impossible (for technical reasons, with a server side topology) people never seem to factor in the value of  a functioning anti cheat.

They try to emulate the game, the micro transactions, but ignore what I think is THE key success factor: 
Its a level playing ground.

Oh well, just bear in mind you were forewarned.
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while i dont want to be negative about the game cause i love it and its nice to not be like the other dirt games one thing which still is the same is cheats and shortcuts.

why are the cheats still in ? just get rid of them. its like nearly a month we all know who they are its not like the devs dont.

dirt 3 was similar just shredded by cheats times meant nothing shortly after release. atleast confirm you are going to get rid of em or something.
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in richard burns rally, i remember there was a site that you could upload the replay file and there was a leaderboads that taken the time fromt that.

anyone could download the file and see his race. 
members could download the file and if he see any cheat,cuts could report to admin to remove his time.

it was really good.
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dgeesi0 said:

dirt 3 was similar just shredded by cheats times meant nothing shortly after release. atleast confirm you are going to get rid of em or something.
This triggers another thought process with me; In 2015 your game should ideally have a online, multiplayer component for your player base to stay invested in the game ( I know it's in the road map) 

  • Why is it so hard to realize that allowing and ignoring cheats  is DETRIMENTAL to the success of your game?
(Granted if more than 50% of your player base cheats, you should very well ignore it)

  • Why is it so hard to see that any competitive element is promptly invalidated?

  • Why is it so hard to realise the success of your game or franchise could very well be VASTLY affected by your ACTIONS towards cheaters?

( not some generic spin doctoring in forums, but actual implementations in the software to combat cheats?)

I am quite frankly at a loss as to why publishers and game makers seem so oblivious to these , for me obvious issues.
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I don't care. Just saying. It's likely only the few people who are able to compete at the top who do. I literally couldn't care less what the leaderboard looks like. I really hope too many complaints about it doesn't result in moddability being locked down, because playing with modified grip is a lot more fun than watching people who have learned every inch of the track and have a lot more time on their hands than I compete for perfection.

And regarding WoT; I'd rather be beaten by a programmer than a bank account.

If I sound harsh, i don't mean to; sorry. Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from but I would assume the leaderboards will be reset several times before the end of Early Access anyway, if changes are made to default grip, the tyres or the tarmac.

On this particular stage, surely those times are just the result of cut track warnings that are missing? In which case, I've no doubt they'll be added; there are several threads about it already.
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I don't care. Just saying. It's likely only the few people who are able to compete at the top who do. I literally couldn't care less what the leaderboard looks like. I really hope excessive whinging about it doesn't result in moddability being locked down, because playing with modified grip is a lot more fun than watching people who have learned every inch of the track and have a lot more time on their hands than I compete for perfection.

And regarding WoT; I'd rather be beaten by a programmer than a bank account.

If I sound harsh, i don't mean to; sorry. Don't get me wrong, I understand where you're coming from but I would assume the leaderboards will be reset several times before the end of Early Access anyway, if changes are made to default grip, the tyres or the tarmac.

On this particular stage, surely those times are just the result of cut track warnings that are missing? In which case, I've no doubt they'll be added; there are several threads about it already.
Scary if this is the general attitude, impressive that your stance is that my "excessive whinging" is what you are concerned  about, it does sound harsh, but I could not really care less; It people like you that lets these guys off the hook in most competitive games these days.

You totally miss my point about WoT; Once I realised I spent about 2000 pounds on it I quit, it was moronic.
But the REASON I stayed so active within that game and the community ( I ran a 40 man clan) was that I had FUN competing on equal terms, this meant I actually hung around to spend that stupid amount of money: Something I would never do in this game unless they address cheating. 

I actually think the modding fans are 
whinging a lot more; I love mods, and in this game you can already replace assets, use custom liveries fiddle with FF and modify grip, as you spoke of. Its actually pretty moddable as is, but you fail to see that if there is no community, modding will never happen on any noticable scale.

..for your information these guys can finish any stage on any time as one feature of the cheat is to freeze the timer.

or they can win by using fast car acceleration/better brakes - they are basically already playing your modded game.

This is only the beginning if left unchecked, and I for one have already quit trying to to daily challenges, so I am already playing the game substantially less, any online features will promptly be unplayable unless you cheat, so for me its only so much fun to be had driving around vs the AI.

So I put it to you: you will be stuck with a dead game, except for a lot of cheaters, with no one to make your mods for you as the community has never developed or has long moved on: Let's talk again then and we will see if you are still as apathetic about cheats.

Just saying.


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Sorry, that was badly phrased. I feel your OP was excessively aggressive, but my retort was hardly fair either. Edited.

You misunderstand when I say "modded", I mean my ability to modify the original files of the game to make it more enjoyable for myself offline, such as AI abilities or tyre grip. Still, there are many games still with more active communities than RBR, such as GTR2, Race07, rFactor etc that I don't even know if leaderboards exist, but an active modding scene is still going strong, creating content for leagues and offline play.

So I guess the reality is somewhere in the middle of you and I; both sides have an audience and need catering for, but I'm sure the online side of it will be looked at in depth when the timeline suggests PvP implementation and have faith it will be sorted over the coming half year.

You spent two grand on WoT? Genuine question, but on what? Maybe that's not 'pay 2 win' then, but 'pay 2 compete on a level playing field'. That's what it sounds like to me, but I might be missing the point - I accept that. I read some interviews about them getting rid of that model.
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Sorry, that was badly phrased. I feel your OP was excessively aggressive, but my retort was hardly fair either. Edited.

Fair enough :) - If i sounded aggressive in the OP, its because of a decade old frustration built up on lip service from spin doctors, employed by people that don't see a correlation between an working anticheat and customer retention, I really do not mean offence to anyone though, it's just my pet peeve.

You misunderstand when I say "modded", I mean my ability to modify the original files of the game to make it more enjoyable for myself offline, such as AI abilities or tyre grip. Still, there are many games still with more active communities than RBR, such as GTR2, Race07, rFactor etc that I don't even know if leaderboards exist, but an active modding scene is still going strong, creating content for leagues and offline play.

I do understand what you are talking about, and i see the argument that anti cheat is often an opposing force to modding.

So I guess the reality is somewhere in the middle of you and I; both sides have an audience and need catering for, but I'm sure the online side of it will be looked at in depth when the timeline suggests PvP implementation and have faith it will be sorted over the coming half year.

I pray you are right, not holding my breath though..

You spent two grand on WoT? Genuine question, but on what? Maybe that's not 'pay 2 win' then, but 'pay 2 compete on a level playing field'. That's what it sounds like to me, but I might be missing the point - I accept that. I read some interviews about them getting rid of that model.

As I said, I ran my own 40+ members clan, so seeing we were pretty involved in clan wars; for us to stay competitive you needed quite a lot of high tier tanks and TD`s - these had to be grinded using premium, and you spent a lot of cash to convert XP to free XP to grind even faster, then there was the disgusting pay to win mechanic of premium ammo, which i think they have removed or relaxed a bit ( they lost a lot of customers on that one, but they made a fortune short term)

Then there was the clan treasury ( mostly to sponsor gold ammo for those that could not afford it) 

So especially for me as the clan leader I had to have a versatile role, and at some point i owned a end tier vehicle in almost every tech tree. You have to pay a lot to accelerate the grind this demands.
We had opposing clans and even members among our own rank that spent even more then me.

I freely admit it was moronic, but gaming is my hobby, and I have always allocated funds to my hobbies, but to my defence,  I just said fuck it one day, and gave away the leadership of the clan and went cold turkey - No game is worth that kind of money.

It was an insanely well executed strategy of microtransactions on wargaming's part, and to my knowledge unparalleled for its time, but you burn a lot of trust and you are (quite correctly) labeled as monstrously greedy.
 
Lastly I can see the argument of pay to win, which is only marginally better than cheat to win - We did however have clan members that spent miniscule amounts as well, but they did invest a lot of time..

Edit: I see I ramble into a lot of Wot specific terminology, trying to explain the cost drivers,  i'll clarify if anything is unclear, just ask  :)

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Nah, that's plenty explanation; it was a a genuine query as I've never been tempted to try any F2P other than R3E, who are trying to dump the model as fast as possible. I lived with a guy who spent a similar amount on one of those strategy games and I couldn't work out how, but I guess that's a clever part of their business strategy.

I've honestly never played a DiRT or Grid game for more than half an hour before this one, so for me I'm effectively treating this as a game from a new developer and so far I like the general direction they're taking, so will put some trust in them and see where it takes us.

I agree with the summary of your OP though, it is something that requires looking at. The ISI method of 'if any of your files don't match the server, you don't play' has always worked fine for many leagues I've played before, aaprt from occasionally booting people for reasons it took us ages to work out!
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Well i mostly end up in the top of the 1000-2000, but still i do care about those fokking cheaters, it just dont feel right and find that everything possiblle must be done to whipe them out of the games no matter what genre
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It doesn't make much of a difference to me if I'm two or three places lower because of cheaters, because right now I mostly place somewhere between 100 and 300. Still I find it annoying. You are proud if you can shave a few seconds off your time, and then some stupid dork just goes a minute faster than everybody else... I mean, what's the point? It's so obvious that no one will take those times for real. Then why do it? Just to show you can cheat? And that you are a complete youknowwherehole?

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Similar reasons to that are one of the worst things about R3E (that and the business model). Everything goes through the server and there are no cheats. I'll let the player numbers for that game speak for itself (pity, because it's the best circuit racer out there at the moment).

They're dialling out the slowness at the moment, and doing a great job, but it has a damaged reputation partially because of this. Also means you can't play offline at all.
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Malyngo said:


Look at software that is using some dedicated cheat software. I don't know any game that is using those that is free of cheaters.
Someone mentioned World of Tanks, and how it is free of cheaters. Can't comment on that, never played it. But he mentioned something about server side. Yes, this is something you can do, let every command run on the server, so the server can check if it is valid. But this cannot work in a game like Dirt Rally. Latency would be too high.

This is a myth and arguments based on ignorance;
You have to stop mindlessly spewing arguments you have read on the internet that has as much validity as the statement "The human eye CANNOT see past 30 fps"


No offense to you personally, but this idiocy must stop.

1. Ignorants that claim this are referring to ONLINE shooters, their claim is that if the server controls every player location and every bullet trajectory, latency will become a problem for the game experience.

First : This has no relevance to a racing game whatsoever, even if they included a online player vs player mode tomorrow.

Secondly: even if you are talking about an first person shooter, the statement is less than accurate. modern broadband penetration will typically give you a 5-30 MILLIsecond round trip to a server.

You could argue its merit on a SUBset of online shooters, that uses hitscan as a mechanic for determining whether a gun hits a player. ( COD series, CS 1.x, source and GO) keep in mind these games actually retard IP traffic because some players have lower latency than others, a bastard attempt to even the playing field as latency is a problem for many games..

Remember these are based on 15+ year old game engines (Quake/Source),developed in a time where online cheats were all but non existent.

2. World of tanks, World of Planes, Tribes, Tribes 2, Tribes Ascend, War Thunder...

Are but a few examples of "first person" shooters with server based hit calculations on projectile based weapons that has almost NO viable cheat in them.  
(these are all on the top of my head, I did no research to list these examples)

They are also examples of free to play games that will not survive if cheats are rampant. The entire business model is based on the player as content for your game, and if the player leaves due to cheaters, the game is more or less instantly dead.

3. Most cheats have no correlation to latency, they modify parts of the game that will have no impact on latency nor will anti measures for said cheats.

If I sound harsh its not my intention to chastise you personally, rather one of the many misconceptions that has been slowly adopted as the "truth" on the interwebs. Its pure ignorance.

TL:DR latency vs anti cheat measures is an issue in a select few First Person Shooters, the argument has little validity on a on a range of shooter games and absolutely NONE in regards to the Dirt franchise.
Latency sensitive cheat problems arise from poor game design, it's not an insurmountable problem in any game.
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Just watched the livestream, they have implemented anti cheat measures  in the new release ( we will soon see how efficient they are) and added a few bushes in the frequently cut corners, they will also revise clutch deadzone.

This is great news!
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@RacerRune Your tone is hardly endearing.

Right of the bat though, it's a bit daft that you're comparing actual PvP games which are actually played online via servers such as World of Tanks or War Thunder to the online leaderboard system in DiRT Rally, which is fundamentally an offline system and will stay that way because taking it completely online and moderating every little thing is prohibitively expensive.
Those aspects will only become relevant to DiRT Rally once actual, live, PvP multiplayer arrives.

Online leaderboards are  just a flawed concept in terms of being relied upon.
This isn't new and its why serious gamers and competitions don't rely on them.
They won't be there forever either, one day Codies will flick the switch to turn off the servers.
Sites dedicated to speed-running for example will accept nothing less than video evidence (or in racing games, a replay system which allows replay data to be shared and replayed on a different system for validation).

It's not just about latency, it's about cost. The games you mentioned make a continuous stream of money through microtransactions.
Lots and lots of microtransactions. Lots and lots and LOTS of them.
World of Tanks specifically, despite being free to play, was making monthly revenue in "double-digit millions" of dollars.
Codemasters cannot afford to run a setup anywhere near as comprehensive and certainly not long term, which is why they rely on 3rd party systems such as Valve Anti-Cheat, which has its own limitations.
(as a further addition, there are so many people playing those games that cheaters are more easily lost in the mass. Doesn't mean they aren't there.)
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Codemasters cannot afford to run a setup anywhere near as comprehensive and certainly not long term, which is why they rely on 3rd party systems such as Valve Anti-Cheat, which has its own limitations.

True, but it's a matter of respect towards the community to NOT leave a cheater in 1st place (1 min faster than the second place guy) on a daily event for days in a row.

I'm definitely nowhere near the top times, but I enjoy looking at the same names battle for top places. When I see examples like the bbkhk dude it just ruins the whole experience. You don't need "revenue in double-digit millions" to address a small number of glaring issues each day, you just need good will.
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