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When are the physics and damage model going to be updated?

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CM,

The new track and car updates are really nice but...

1.  When are we going to see updates to the current tarmac physics model?  ..the release of the Germany update just makes the current issues even more apparent.  Right now its either all or nothing in regards to grip on tarmac and no in between.  Also, no throttle lift oversteer, (no steering with the throttle of any sort for that matter), ridiculously short braking distances, and the inability to powerslide with RWD at high speeds only make the poor tarmac physics model really stand out.  On tarmac it's like you are driving on rails unless you purposely try to upset the suspension/traction with the handbrake or a scandanavian flick.  This model feels really bad compared to any other modern driving simulators.

2.  When are the vehicle damage models going be updated to something more realistic ? (or at least a toggle option between arcade/sim)  When I hit a group of trees at 70 mph I should be out of the rally...not put back on track with a leaking radiator.  If I roll my car at 80mph+ into a field i should not be placed back on track with a 12sec delay I should be out of the rally as well.  It's a bit ridiculous and feels more like a console game at this point.

The bug fixes and additions to the game are all wonderful and your team is doing a great job... but come on it's been 3 months. Lets see some changes that actually affect the core and most important aspects of the game...the driving.

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Have the same feelings about how things are going. Take away the couple content packs and the FFB update and it's the same game they started this EA with. There are bugs still present from the beginning, issues with handling and physics still not addressed. Damage modeling is downright silly. There's no changes. Is there anywhere devs talk about issues or at least acknowledge them and let people know they're working on them?

Then to make matters worse, any time someone tries to criticize or point out any deficiencies, they're immediately met by a pack of fanboys that think whatever the devs do or decisions they make are gospel. Seems like sometimes feedback gets drowned out by all the "yes men" around here (and Steam).

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Thanks for the support function9. 

I didn't want too sound harsh with my initial post. FFB and sound engine updates are occurring so we know there are CM engineers working steadily in the background.  It feels as if certain "other" areas are being neglected though... and I fear that what we currently have now maybe all we are going to get in those regards.  It would surely be a shame to only get half a sim engine. :-(   If CM is going to make physics/damage model changes they need to start dabbling and release an update to get community feedback... just as they did with the ffb patch.  Maybe I'm jumping the gun but it sure would be nice to actually hear from a dev in regards to these matters as perhaps physics and damage modeling take much longer to develop than tracks and cars.

Devs?

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I'm with you Fishsticks 

although i think the game is more fun with a more forgiving damage model... just imagine how many times you need to restart / exit a championship because you break the car. ... now we loose wheels and the engine gets funky - but we are able to finish most of the time. 

so instead of wasting time restarting championships, we learn to drive.

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function9 said:
Then to make matters worse, any time someone tries to criticize or point out any deficiencies, they're immediately met by a pack of fanboys that think whatever the devs do or decisions they make are gospel. Seems like sometimes feedback gets drowned out by all the "yes men" around here (and Steam).
Agree, i hate those guys who are oblivious about bugs and errors an praise and defend Codemasters at all cost. 

The new FFB is shit and only a few of us know so - but most people defend it because they drive faster ... well because it's basically assisted driving. 

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It's not what people say is wrong that sets them up for the bashing, it's how they say it.

Cars too grippy? Yes, we know. Damage model needs improving? Yes, we know. Physics needs fixing? Yes, we know. People have managed to say all of this without being abused.

Insult people for disagreeing with you, especially before they have had a chance to actually disagree with you? It's you're own fault that people attack you, you asked for it when you insulted them.

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10 points if you can link to an article/post/tweet where the devs have said they're making a hardcore sim. 
Will this do?
http://blog.codemasters.com/dirt/04/dirt-rally-now-available-in-early-access/
Simulation Handling – We’ve accurately recreated how every part of the car works and to support this we’ve developed a brand new physics model that simulates everything from the way the surface of the road behaves to limited slip differentials. This is how these cars drive and with real-world rallying experience on the team, a deep understanding of car setup and handling, countless visitors from the worlds of rally and rallycross plus the help of some of our biggest DiRT Fans we’ve got the handling as right as we can.
What's the point of simulation handling if you're not making a sim? Yes, they've never come out and said word for word, "We're going to build the best damn hardcore rally sim the world has ever seen!" But it sure has been implied.
Martakus said:
Yup. All they said is that it´ll be far more authentic than the previous games. And that it is.

Plus, if 1 player gives 'feedback' and 10 others immediately say that they like the game the way it is, shouldn´t that tell you that the majority of the players is liking the game? And the devs need to follow the majority if they want to make money.
Not if it's typically the same 10 people.

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@KickUp said during the Pikes Peak show that they are working on the physics and that they don't know when it'll be ready.

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Disagree with the damage, I think it's fine as it is. To me losing 12-15 seconds to reset the car = restarting the stage, so how would that be different from a "totaled" message that would result in the exact same restart?

Fully agree with the tarmac physics though - I also feel like there's close to nothing between the 100% grip and 0% grip out-of-control-spinning situations.

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I'm all for a more in depth damage model but my real concern lies with the tarmac physics.

Gravel feels pretty damn good already, but tarmac really does need some work.  They don't have to be trying to make the most hardcore simulator in the world to make some adjustments to the physics that a lot of people have been asking for since day 1.  It's harder to drive actually cause of it's all or nothing levels of grip.   It is really hard to successfully powerslide around a hairpin in a very powerful 4WD, and just about impossible with RWD.  Scandanavian flick on tarmac?  Don't even attempt it.  In RWD, if you actually do hit the handbrake to try and drift a corner, you will almost always spin out.  There doesn't seem to be much in between of 100% on rails grip and complete loss of traction.

As with gravel as well, it feels pretty awesome at higher speeds.  Lift off oversteer coming over crests and such you can catch and feels natural, but at lower speeds you can't get the wheels spinning and the car around hairpins is really really hard to control.  I'm not the type that harder is more realistic, but I've watched a lot of WRC, onboards, etc and they don't seem to have near the level of grip in low speed corners we battle with here.

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Montago said:
I'm with you Fishsticks 

although i think the game is more fun with a more forgiving damage model... just imagine how many times you need to restart / exit a championship because you break the car. ... now we loose wheels and the engine gets funky - but we are able to finish most of the time. 

so instead of wasting time restarting championships, we learn to drive.
I understand where you are coming from Montago but it would still be nice to have an option you could tick for  realistic damage if you so desired.  Then everyone is happy :-)

 Imagine racing an online challenge mode where you don't push 100% in fear of totaling your vehicle into a tree.  That opens up an interesting challenge of not only who is the fastest but also who is also the most consistant.  This may be geared more for the diehard sim enthusiasts but it would definitely separate the best from the best.  If a player didn't like the extra challenge of realistic damage in single player they could simply select the regular damage model instead.  The online challenges with realistic damage model would be optional and just for the diehards.

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griev0r said:
I'm all for a more in depth damage model but my real concern lies with the tarmac physics.

Gravel feels pretty damn good already, but tarmac really does need some work.  They don't have to be trying to make the most hardcore simulator in the world to make some adjustments to the physics that a lot of people have been asking for since day 1.  It's harder to drive actually cause of it's all or nothing levels of grip.   It is really hard to successfully powerslide around a hairpin in a very powerful 4WD, and just about impossible with RWD.  Scandanavian flick on tarmac?  Don't even attempt it.  In RWD, if you actually do hit the handbrake to try and drift a corner, you will almost always spin out.  There doesn't seem to be much in between of 100% on rails grip and complete loss of traction.

As with gravel as well, it feels pretty awesome at higher speeds.  Lift off oversteer coming over crests and such you can catch and feels natural, but at lower speeds you can't get the wheels spinning and the car around hairpins is really really hard to control.  I'm not the type that harder is more realistic, but I've watched a lot of WRC, onboards, etc and they don't seem to have near the level of grip in low speed corners we battle with here.
  Indeed gravel does feel perfect and is very immersive.  Tarmac on the other hand is an all or nothing affair in regards to traction and  becomes very frustrating when trying to push a vehicle to its limits.

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feel same here,.....love the gravel and car can be dialed in pretty good.Enjoy all RWDs on gravel.Tarmac ....jeeeez I cannot get it.And honestly even if tuning set ups on susp. settings would bring a drivable tarmac model,would just mean that the core tarmac experience is not driven by a real physics engine.Kind of like theyre trying to "mimic" handling and not create it in a sense most true simulations do.For me ,I got real excited when I saw the word "simulation" thrown about by devs,but now im just hoping for a better tarmac driving experience.These are my humble opinions.

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i think sadly ,us the sim crowd would have been better off if the whole game was just on gravel rounds of the rally locations.

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I find it funny people complaining about all or nothing levels of grip. I have this problem in my real life racing, so many spins as a result  :D
But to be fair that would not be the same for all cars (especially ones kitted out specifically to be rally cars).

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I find it funny people complaining about all or nothing levels of grip. I have this problem in my real life racing, so many spins as a result  :D
But to be fair that would not be the same for all cars (especially ones kitted out specifically to be rally cars).
True, I've played a LOT of simulations based on tarmac and yeah I've spun out a lot over the years, but it's different here.  With iRacing/rFactor/AC/LFS etc when I spun I just think to myself well aw shit I pushed it just a little too hard, not the case currently with DR on tarmac.  With AWD on tarmac the only way to try and take a hairpin is with extremely aggressive downshifting pinging the rpms to the max before you hit the handbrake, and even then it seems to either not hold a slide/keep the wheels spinning, turn around ass end with no chance of saving, or just feel plain wrong.  I'm sure a couple of you have seen my slow motion video, lets just say it took a LOT of attempts to get any of those tarmac hairpin shots looking realistic in the Fiesta.

As far as RWD on tarmac, I have found it better not to even try to handbrake/slide the hairpins.  They almost always spin out no matter the instant counter steer or what you do with the throttle/brake.  If they don't spin out with no chance of saving it, they bog down and come to almost a complete stop.

When I'm grinding the championships for money and upgrades, everytime Monte Carlo comes up I'm just like UGHHH.  By far the worst feeling event in the game atm, ice/snow feels lifeless and it seems the grip is even more on/off than at Germany.

I'm not bashing the game, it's feedback and what the dev's need and I'm not alone with this issue.  I absolutely love it I have 100+ hours and it brought me back to sim racing after quitting and selling all my gear over 2 years ago.  I feel gravel feels damn good already with AWD and RWD, but tarmac really needs some attention to the driving model.

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I hope there comes a day on DiRT Rally when I can hit a random rock in the road and my front right suspension flies up through the bonnet... I would cry with joy at the sight :') whilst I wrestle the car home. 


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griev0r said:
I'm all for a more in depth damage model but my real concern lies with the tarmac physics.

Gravel feels pretty damn good already, but tarmac really does need some work.  They don't have to be trying to make the most hardcore simulator in the world to make some adjustments to the physics that a lot of people have been asking for since day 1.  It's harder to drive actually cause of it's all or nothing levels of grip.   It is really hard to successfully powerslide around a hairpin in a very powerful 4WD, and just about impossible with RWD.  Scandanavian flick on tarmac?  Don't even attempt it.  In RWD, if you actually do hit the handbrake to try and drift a corner, you will almost always spin out.  There doesn't seem to be much in between of 100% on rails grip and complete loss of traction.

As with gravel as well, it feels pretty awesome at higher speeds.  Lift off oversteer coming over crests and such you can catch and feels natural, but at lower speeds you can't get the wheels spinning and the car around hairpins is really really hard to control.  I'm not the type that harder is more realistic, but I've watched a lot of WRC, onboards, etc and they don't seem to have near the level of grip in low speed corners we battle with here.
+1 for me.. on tarmac i don't use the handbrake, for me is impossible (spin 100% with rwd, 50% with 4wd). 
And the passage from power grip to loosing grip is too fast (sorry for english)

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griev0r said:
I'm not bashing the game, it's feedback and what the dev's need and I'm not alone with this issue.  I absolutely love it I have 100+ hours and it brought me back to sim racing after quitting and selling all my gear over 2 years ago.  I feel gravel feels damn good already with AWD and RWD, but tarmac really needs some attention to the driving model.
Don't worry, we know you're not bashing the game, you are giving your honest opinion on what you think is wrong with it. As I've said before, feedback is welcome, in fact, it's needed. I've never banned anybody for giving feedback, only for insults and accusations.

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agree .............I spent hours trying to tune the M3 to feel remotely like a RWD 300hp car.

Cant do it ,I am so frustrated as I would love to drive around my favorite car on tarmac too.

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This is de REAL GRIP !!! Enjoy.....
The physics in tarmac must improve a lot. Codemasters do hope that soon. 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iV1wLop7HKU


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elbradipo said:
griev0r said:
I'm all for a more in depth damage model but my real concern lies with the tarmac physics.

Gravel feels pretty damn good already, but tarmac really does need some work.  They don't have to be trying to make the most hardcore simulator in the world to make some adjustments to the physics that a lot of people have been asking for since day 1.  It's harder to drive actually cause of it's all or nothing levels of grip.   It is really hard to successfully powerslide around a hairpin in a very powerful 4WD, and just about impossible with RWD.  Scandanavian flick on tarmac?  Don't even attempt it.  In RWD, if you actually do hit the handbrake to try and drift a corner, you will almost always spin out.  There doesn't seem to be much in between of 100% on rails grip and complete loss of traction.

As with gravel as well, it feels pretty awesome at higher speeds.  Lift off oversteer coming over crests and such you can catch and feels natural, but at lower speeds you can't get the wheels spinning and the car around hairpins is really really hard to control.  I'm not the type that harder is more realistic, but I've watched a lot of WRC, onboards, etc and they don't seem to have near the level of grip in low speed corners we battle with here.
+1 for me.. on tarmac i don't use the handbrake, for me is impossible (spin 100% with rwd, 50% with 4wd). 
And the passage from power grip to loosing grip is too fast (sorry for english)
Everyone entitled to their own opinion but I feel as if most of these opinions are issues with their own ability and some are having difficultly driving and believe its the game's fault. Seeking less grip is actually seeking a more arcade driving experience akin to something like Grid or Burnout where you power slide around every corner.



I'm not an expert in car physics (like many users on this forum seem to be). But if you have ever watched a gymkhana video where Ken drives a rally car specially setup up for drifting and sliding (different from a setup used to compete in a tarmac rally which is optimised for grip). He still has to use the handbrake to get the car into a powerslide and around hairpins. If your not using the handbrake, no wonder some of you are having trouble getting around corners.

Claiming that its impossible to do throttle steering or powerslides is completely incorrect. Getting around hairpins like seen in the above video posted by @Alwert can be done in DiRT Rally. It takes some practice though to get it right. You have to coordinate your steering, speed, handbrake and throttle to do them perfectly. Maybe some of you should spend less time complaining and more time practicing. 

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And claiming that everything is perfect, when infact it isn't (look at previoius posts by SkiddyMcCrash stating the devs are working on tarmac physics still) doesn't help anything. At this point I think just about everything should be open for debate. And if a topic gets enough attention, hopefully that will get the devs to at least take another look at the issue in question and then decide if something needs to be fixed, tweaked, or left alone.

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It's also a case of there working on aero and tarmac. And if they adjust one thing to work perfectly now and then add for instance aero it throws everything out of kilta and you end up going round in circles. So I'm still happy at the moment it's not perfect but it could also be so much worse. 

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