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The biggest problem in f1 2020: tracklimits

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9 minutes ago, Akkan74 said:

Is this the explanation? Together with "i am the host of the fastest league" shows you are a real adult. I think any further conversation doesn't make any sense.

maybe hosting the only german league that dont allow players that are under 21, takling with someone that is fine with tracklimits in 50% races though he isnt even driving 50% races. puh...

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58 minutes ago, D4rio said:

Real Formula 1 does apply a similar corner stringency rule for the 2020 season, the only difference being they apply it only on corners where cutting can give a clear advantage (see my note in my earlier post).

Actually I don't think that is the only difference. It's more that the drivers and stewards agree to not follow the written rules on certain corners, in ways that do reduce lap times.

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55 minutes ago, iosis said:

do you drive in leagues with strict?

I don't, and nor do I make any claims to be a top driver. I am not. I don't think this makes any difference to what I've posted though. The track limits are the same for everyone in your league and you just need to drive to these.

I would like to see track limits that were as close as possible to real F1, but I don't think the game is somehow broken or unplayable without this.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

Actually I don't think that is the only difference. It's more that the drivers and stewards agree to not follow the written rules on certain corners, in ways that do reduce lap times.

I'm not 100% sure I understood you correctly, but the FIA releases an official statement prior the race week start with a list of the monitored corners (and how the limits apply). Whether they decide it with the drivers or not is irrelevant I guess.

Edited by D4rio

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8 minutes ago, iosis said:

tracklimits like this wouldnt be feasible in real f1. Fans would go crazy. Even hamilton and co. will get at least 3 warnings in a race, even when they focus on nothing other than the tl.

You think real F1 drivers would be incapable to staying within tighter agreed track limits? I don't. They'd just be slower as a result.

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9 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

You think real F1 drivers would be incapable to staying within tighter agreed track limits? I don't. They'd just be slower as a result.

3 or 6 times over a whole race?

 

...Turn 10 and 1 in Austria...

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2 minutes ago, D4rio said:

I'm not 100% I understood you correctly, but the FIA releases an official statement prior the race week start with a list of the monitored corners. Whether they decide it with the drivers or not is irrelevant I guess.

Your post read as if you thought this only happened in corners where no lap time advantage could be gained, whereas I believe it does happen for such corners.

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2 minutes ago, D4rio said:

I'm not 100% I understood you correctly, but the FIA releases an official statement prior the race week start with a list of the monitored corners (and how the limits apply). Whether they decide it with the drivers or not is irrelevant I guess.

 

1 minute ago, Ultra3142 said:

You think real F1 drivers would be incapable to staying within tighter agreed track limits? I don't. They'd just be slower as a result.

In real F1 there are strict limits, but there are not monitored strictly. The FIA wants to stop the discussion and they think about some arrangements which prevents driver from exeeding track limits or which are way slower.

At the moment the stewards will have a look at it, but they only penalise exeeding limits if you gain time (in acc. to C. Whiting). For a game i think it's not so easy to implement a measurement system which only gives a warning if you gain time.

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1 minute ago, Ultra3142 said:

Your post read as if you thought this only happened in corners where no lap time advantage could be gained, whereas I believe it does happen for such corners.

Of course it does happen in such corners, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise :classic_smile:

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2 minutes ago, Akkan74 said:

 

In real F1 there are strict limits, but there are not monitored strictly. The FIA wants to stop the discussion and they think about some arrangements which prevents driver from exeeding track limits or which are way slower.

At the moment the stewards will have a look at it, but they only penalise exeeding limits if you gain time (in acc. to C. Whiting). For a game i think it's not so easy to implement a measurement system which only gives a warning if you gain time.

Actually they've been actively cancelling lap times during free practices and quails in the last three races. If this does not count as strict monitoring I really don't know what else could.
Also they cancel regardless if there is a gain in terms of time or not. If the sensors go off the lap time is automatically invalidated.

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10 minutes ago, D4rio said:

Actually they've been actively cancelling lap times during free practices and quails in the last three races. If this does not count as strict monitoring I really don't know what else could.
Also they cancel regardless if there is a gain in terms of time or not. If the sensors go off the lap time is automatically invalidated.

... This is true, unless their limits were behind the curbs, not before. It was a little space for failures, which is needed in my opinion when you take corners with such an amount of speed. Even the pros that knew that there were the limits did mistakes there.

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Regular is trash, it let's you cut and extend a lot.
Strict is terrible because it actually is TOO strict (like it should be in real life but that's not how it is!). Makes racing less fun, you spend more time placing the car inside the track than actually trying to drive the car.

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2 hours ago, iosis said:

3 or 6 times over a whole race?

...Turn 10 and 1 in Austria...

I don't see how this relates to my post that you quoted? My point was real F1 drivers could and would stick within tighter track limits if they were enforced. Examples of drivers regularly exceeding apparent track limits just means they are working to what the stewards are allowing, not that they couldn't manage a tighter line if penalties would be applied otherwise.

 

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1 hour ago, Ultra3142 said:

I don't see how this relates to my post that you quoted? My point was real F1 drivers could and would stick within tighter track limits if they were enforced. Examples of drivers regularly exceeding apparent track limits just means they are working to what the stewards are allowing, not that they couldn't manage a tighter line if penalties would be applied otherwise.

 

Perfect example:  In Austria, Lewis and Valteri were told to stay off the kerbs due to sensor issues.  So they stayed off the kerbs.  They only lost a tiny bit of time.

These are the best drivers in the world.  The FiA sets the limits at the start of the race weekend so every team knows exactly where they are.  The drivers follow those   The game can't do that.  I'm sure it can be updated as time goes on to make it closer to what was used in real life, but for now it is what it is.

As so many others (including myself) have stated: Every driver in the race has the same rules to follow.  The driver who can get to the finish line the fastest, with the fewest penalties, is the winner.  In the game, and in real life.  The secret to being the winner is learning how to drive that fast, without getting penalties.  TRL Limitless is but one example of that.  Even Charles Leclair admitted that "Limitless is quick." (on stream)

Until we're that good, however, we get penalties, or we drive a little slower and stay inside the lines.

If someone feels like the limits are too strict, then a few dozen laps around Time Trial will probably help a lot.  That's what I did when I started league racing.  My league uses strict track limits, so I practice with strict track limits.  There are corners where I used to cut and get away with it.  Now I can't.  I have to relearn those corners.  So be it.

Every time I thought the game was buggy, I checked my alignment on track, and sure enough, I was over the white line with all 4 wheels.  Sometimes only a half-inch.  But that's the rule.

Yes, it's different from real life.  It has to be.  Until Codemasters can update the game to reflect what was actually used in real life at each track, and the code can get sophisticated enough to determine when - and when not - to hand out a penalty, the white lines are your limits.

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France, turn 2: I noticed very easy to pick up a penalty here - very strict. :classic_mellow:

But its a bit frustrating when you pick up a penalty if the AI cause you off the line - I was bumped in the rear, went off the line and got a penalty. Where is the penalty for the AI? 😂

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5 hours ago, iosis said:

 

yeeees, codemasters can put them anywhere they want to. And this time they are to harsh in my opinion. In your opinion they are ok. So what is the discussion about? 

Do you drive in leagues with strict?

What's so different to a league on strict conditions and a 1 off race? Nothing. I don't get your fascination with it being a league. The settings are for all and is not penalising you more than anyone else. Get used to it and drive correctly to be within the rules of the setting!

 

 

5 hours ago, TSR Zinker said:

This video is a very good example. And these scenarios happen at every track! Austria, Belgium, Spain... doesn't matter.

The edge of the kerb should be defined as the track limit. Like in real life. The current system is broken and way too harsh. It makes no sense.

Unfortunately the kerbs at most tracks are outdated and not the real ones, too... I think about track limits more than my actual driving, which takes a lot of fun away from actually competing online.

Not a good example at all. Like I've said earlier, you need to check the external replay camera and you WILL see that the edge of your inner tyres are over the white line. you cannot judge on what you see from your driving view as you cannot see the outer edge of the tyre. The current system is NOT broken as is doing as is intended/described - STRICT and so makes so much sense.

 

 

5 hours ago, iosis said:

 

Haha that league shot just proves that your league players need to adjust and drive correctly. People (and incredibly fast people) are driving a lot faster and within the limits of the track. Skill will win as it should.

 

Codies can put these limits anywhere but have chose for STRICT to mimic the real life rules of the sport. Whether the drivers and stewards IRL choose to follow those rules is up to them, but they currently are not! If Codies change where the limit is outside the white track line, it's still a 'line' as such for you to drive within like you would with this STRICT setting, just invisible to you - at least now you can actually see where the limit is. 

 

Plenty of people are driving faster and within the limits of the track so I don't understand your issue. You state it's all about pushing the limits to get the best lap time but when you push too far, you cry it's not fair. Pushing the limit is always about what you can get away with and is risky in anything you try and push the limit on. You can't go over that limit and then cry about that limit. Just learn to stay within it as you would have done in 2019. You say 2019 was better but that's because you go used to it and knew what you could/couldn't do. You have that here and at least it's visible to you so learn it, drive better and then you will win by skill.

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37 minutes ago, MJMD said:

France, turn 2: I noticed very easy to pick up a penalty here - very strict. :classic_mellow:

But its a bit frustrating when you pick up a penalty if the AI cause you off the line - I was bumped in the rear, went off the line and got a penalty. Where is the penalty for the AI? 😂

In that case, you should submit a bug report in the Bugs section. You're right that you should not get a penalty if you get knocked off the track. But in order for Codemasters to fix it, they need to know about it, and with as much data as you can give them. Screenshots and videos are very helpful because they help the devs recreate the same situation, and in turn, fix it.

Oh, and the AI are above the law. They drive perfectly, so why would they ever need to get a penalty? 🤣

 

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53 minutes ago, MJMD said:

France, turn 2: I noticed very easy to pick up a penalty here - very strict. :classic_mellow:

But its a bit frustrating when you pick up a penalty if the AI cause you off the line - I was bumped in the rear, went off the line and got a penalty. Where is the penalty for the AI? 😂

Certainly can be frustrating if you get a warning/penalty if forced off but that's where proper feedback is required to Codies like DrDraken states.

 

The issue is the penalty system here not the track limits. The penalty system needs to account for the situation and penalise accordingly..or not in the case where you are pushed off track. The system needs to judge time gained/lost better. You get forced off, you should lose time and therefore not get a warning. If you get "forced" off with no contact and don't lose time, then a warning/penalty is just. What would help is if off-track did not have as much grip so traction is harder to get.

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15 hours ago, MJMD said:

France, turn 2: I noticed very easy to pick up a penalty here - very strict. :classic_mellow:

But its a bit frustrating when you pick up a penalty if the AI cause you off the line - I was bumped in the rear, went off the line and got a penalty. Where is the penalty for the AI? 😂

I noticed that when this happens and you release the throttle consequently you are less likely to receive a penalty, pretty much like IRL where if a driver gains a somewhat advantage by cutting a corner he has to slow down to neuter the advantage.

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New tracklimits for race tracks

Tracklimits are not only the greatest problem of the F1. Instead it is "the problem" for racing in corpore.
And this problem occours, because the FIA Rules has a fault. This fault is, that only a penalty is spoken out,
when the driver shortens the track, to gain a advantage against the other drivers.
And not also, when he longers the track, to gain a advantage.
But when a driver longers the track, the optimal line for the track is different, and the total race time is shorter.

The tracklimits has also a very great impact, how new racetracks look like.
All the new real built tracks has walls direct next to the race track, that the tracklimits is set to a minimum.
Otherwise, a new track is not to calculate, where the overtake places are.
But where are the security zones, by example Vietnam?

The tracklimit has also a impact to the setup of the car. Which is much different, when you drive always over the curbs,
instead of, your limit is the white line. Sometimes, when i play the game F1 2020, i think,
the setup of the car must be fully match to the high of the curbs. Otherwise, i never has a chance, not to be last in the race.
In the same moment, i wish me a pneu from Pirelli with 30 % more grip on gras to solve this problem.

Can i be not last, when i always drive into the white line limit?
My answer with my experience in this race game F1 2020 to this very important question is: No.
The tracklimits define the racetime more than enything eles.
They define also the optimal setup for the car.

I saw in the forum, that Codemaster is free to set there own tracklimits for the game.
Which can be different to the official FIA Rules.

So, i purpose here a "new rule for tracklimits and penalties" in this race game:
To the official two rules for the tracklimits and the penalties, there should be another one, called "White Line Rule".

The rule for this "White Line Tracklimit" is very simple:
- The white lines left and right to the track are the new tracklimits for the track.
The pre existing track limits are not out of order with the white line rule. They marks keep on doing additional penalties. -

With this rule, anything else out of this tracklimit are designt for the savety of the driver, and not for race time optimising.

Also the penalty system  for the white line rule is very simple:
- The time, one or more pneus spend on or out of the tracklimit is the penalty time.
And will be added at the end of the race to the racetime.
If the car leave the track for the driver savety, par exampel, overtaken by another car, mechanical failure,
debries ot track, or a another reason to save a live by doing this,
this addition of the penalty time will not be made at the end of the race.  
The penalty time is automaticly measured by 1 thousands of a second with offtrack sensors, built into the rear spoiler of the car.
These offtrack sensor sends their datas online to the race server.
If the offtrack penalty time is longer then the time for a pitstop drivethrough,
the driver must do this pitstop drivethrough in the next lap, and the offtrack penalty time is exactly reduced by the time,
this pitstop drivetrough takes. -

If Codemasters opinion is, about this new time penalty for leaving the new white line tracklimits, that this is to hard,
then there is a possibility, that this penalty time will be multiplied by a factor between 0 and 1.
To adjust the optimized penalty time. By this way, there is also a extra possibility, that this factor will be increased
by a defined step, every time, a new penalty is added to your race time. Which must not be linear increased.
This function can be, par example, a parabel, a sinus, or a exponential curve.
Or the velocity by crossing the white line, devided by thousand, or five hundred, is this factor, the time penalty is multiplied with.

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