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ABS to powerful - adjustment urgently needed

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I agree. Abs on is way to powerfull atm. Our league is forced to change the rules to no assists because otherwise abs assist users would have advantages.

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ABS is way to powerfull....even Esport guys like Jarno Opmeer turn them now on....thats shouldn´t be a thing

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6 minutes ago, Schwalbe said:

ABS is way to powerfull....even Esport guys like Jarno Opmeer turn them now on....thats shouldn´t be a thing

Yeah this is a joke now. Anyone who is saying ABS isn't too good after this one should change their minds.

@BarryBL Please note this topic. It's not my team issue like most of bug reports but it's fundamental game issue.

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38 minutes ago, Arttu1202 said:

Yeah this is a joke now. Anyone who is saying ABS isn't too good after this one should change their minds.

I don't really follow why to be honest. I'm with some of the earlier comments that it would seem odd if ABS on wasn't quicker to me. 

I'm learning to drive without assists but it's very much for the challenge and realism, not to get quicker.

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4 hours ago, Ultra3142 said:

I don't really follow why to be honest. I'm with some of the earlier comments that it would seem odd if ABS on wasn't quicker to me. 

I'm learning to drive without assists but it's very much for the challenge and realism, not to get quicker.

In Formula 1 cars don't have ABS, TC or dynamic RL, so those shouldn't be even available in the game in the first place. However they are there for people to get into the game easier. So obviously these assists shouldn't be used anywhere where is some kind of leaderboard or competitive situation unless they are worse than driving without assists. This includes: Online, Esport Events, Weekly Events and TT.

On the last game ABS & TC were pretty well balanced as ABS had longer braking distances compared to ABS off and with TC on you didn't get full power at the acceleration phase. Racing line in the other hand has been superior assist in last games and probably still is as the best competitive people were able to use the changing color of the line as throttle and braking markers. However ABS now gives you outright pace which doesn't even require any skill as RL does. Even though I have been against racing line for couple of years now, it looks like ABS is bigger issue currently.

So in other words, ABS needs to be nerfed or removed completely from everywhere where people are able to drive against each other.

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4 hours ago, Arttu1202 said:

So in other words, ABS needs to be nerfed or removed completely from everywhere where people are able to drive against each other.

Earlier someone said that for league racing you could set it so that everyone used no assists so I see no issue there. Can the same be done with basic online lobbies? If so then again I don't see the big problem.

With TT I think it would be better to be able to filter the times by the assists used, or to have a separate no-assists list. As it is you can still see what assists everyone used (other than racing line).

I understand many probably want performance for ABS users to be restricted in some way. All I'm saying is I'm not seeing the slam-dunk argument as to why this is somehow essential.

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2 hours ago, Ultra3142 said:

Earlier someone said that for league racing you could set it so that everyone used no assists so I see no issue there. Can the same be done with basic online lobbies? If so then again I don't see the big problem.

With TT I think it would be better to be able to filter the times by the assists used, or to have a separate no-assists list. As it is you can still see what assists everyone used (other than racing line).

I understand many probably want performance for ABS users to be restricted in some way. All I'm saying is I'm not seeing the slam-dunk argument as to why this is somehow essential.

Yeah it's possible for leagues to decide to if they allow ABS or not. But the problem is that some people really need it in smaller leagues and some people just use it to gain advantage. Let's say there is some small league with 1 or 2 divisions. Obviously they want to allow ABS as they don't want to lose drivers. However these few guys get some extra pace from this assist, which leads to the point where everyone is using it in the end. That's why assists can't be better than assists off. 

With ranked lobbies I guess all assists are allowed. I don't really play these so I don't know for sure. 

On the last game in those Esport qualification events they reduced total score by x% based on assists used, it was pretty decent way. However this year it probably needs bigger % cut if ABS is used. I think they used similar system in weekly events also, hopefully they still do that on this game.

TT filter would be good thing, also they should start mentioning there if line is used (even that telemetry line from the ghost time). Also wheel/pad filter/mention would be good add. Anyway all improvements are welcome to TT, it has been pretty much same for a long time. Filters and equal cars (to gp mode as well) would be a great thing to have.

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1 hour ago, Arttu1202 said:

On the last game in those Esport qualification events they reduced total score by x% based on assists used, it was pretty decent way. However this year it probably needs bigger % cut if ABS is used.

I didn't know that. I'm surprised and actually disappointed to hear that assists were allowed at all.

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Codemasters, is the matter under investigation or have the 1000 views on the topic been ignored so far?

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Posted (edited)
On 7/10/2020 at 5:50 PM, MeduSalem said:

I would say that instead of nerfing the ABS there should be a setting for the host to forbid using ABS assist for multiplayer.

If you mix people using manual modes with people using assists it automatically leads to imbalances. So either everyone plays with ABS or no one. But don't mix. Same rule as for every game that have certain assist features to make a game more accessible.

 

Also to say "it can't be faster" is wrong. ABS like most assists totally can be faster. You can't lock up because the system detects and counters it... hence you can push harder than you could normally. There are reasons for why it is forbidden in real life F1. Because most electronic/computer assisted stuff has reaction times beyond that of human beings. Just like automatic transmissions perform better than manual ones for the same reason even if hardcore manual users have been arguing for decades that manual is better. They are wrong.

Late to the party but this is spot on. Just include the assists options for the host instead of trying to please everyone which they'll never be able to.

I don't use it this year and I find it more rewarding and easier to use than last year where I litterally locked-up at almost every corner without ABS.

Edited by Nas00
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Posted (edited)

Sorry but this is way off the mark. We have league racers who have compared there most accurate times and ABS is not too powerful, try running ABS round Hanoi that's a sobering experience. 

If its that much of an issue to you, set it to OFF in your league or race in league with exclusively no assists. Codemasters gave us leagues and the ability to set up races to lock out assist etc 

Edited by TomAAA
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I did test it in Hanoi actually, in the hairpin, turn 11. No problem to brake at the same point and taking the turn perfectly with ABS as I was driving without ABS.

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On issues like "Insert thing here is OP" threads we always proceed with extreme caution. We had 9 months of pad vs wheel debates, even though we investigated TT times across all methods of driving, and in fact, pad and wheel are balanced (just with different strengths and weaknesses)

I'm fortunate enough to have a TT leaderboard you all see, and a friends PC leaderboard which is a large proportion of the hardcore players on that platform. The known elite players are, and always have been, running with ABS off. Until I get reliable feedback from them with concrete evidence (which im sure they'd happily provide if they thought something was wrong), I feel the assist works fine and is no advantange.

Under the discussion in this thread, running TC Medium and ABS On is alledgely hugely overpowed. I can assure you its not, as they are my normal settings for league racing (I dont get the time these days to practice on-track, and my right foot is rather heavy 😛 ). I run midfield in the forum championships and always have, regardless of settings changes. 

Outright pace is outright pace for me. Removing assists makes you quicker, but its harder. Makes sense. Time vs effort. I don't get a lot of time to practice racing pace and long run compared to our top league guys, so I'm in the midfield. I think thats fair enough - (I like the midfield scrap btw, drives me mad but a good fight anywhere is my favourite thing in racing)

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This is how you can end a discussion.

Since CM has more data than we do, I ask.
How much faster without ABS versus ABS according to internal calculations and tests? And under what conditions?

I think it should be at least 3 tenths. Because if it is less, no e-sports guys will train little to little and drive easily in the middle of the field with ABS and have exciting fights.

If you train more, you can easily ride at the top because it's too easy and the difference is too small. Especially when you remove the tires etc. just step in with ABS like stupid and you're fast. (That's why TT is only half the truth)

Sure, the e-sports guys without ABS are faster, it's their job and this 1 tenth is very important.

It's just that the benefit is far too small without ABS.

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1 minute ago, LILLHELM said:

This is how you can end a discussion.

Since CM has more data than we do, I ask.
How much faster without ABS versus ABS according to internal calculations and tests? And under what conditions?

I think it should be at least 3 tenths. Because if it is less, no e-sports guys will train little to little and drive easily in the middle of the field with ABS and have exciting fights.

If you train more, you can easily ride at the top because it's too easy and the difference is too small. Especially when you remove the tires etc. just step in with ABS like stupid and you're fast. (That's why TT is only half the truth)

Sure, the e-sports guys without ABS are faster, it's their job and this 1 tenth is very important.

It's just that the benefit is far too small without ABS.

"Drive easily" is a little harsh imo, I'm not THAT bad at the game. I'd say I'm pretty quick. But users enjoy the game differently, and can devote varying levels of time to it. 

From experience in racing games and this series, the players at the top run with no assists on for a reason. There's a distinct, and correct, advantage to running with less rather than more. But we also have to give an open playing field to users who don't have the time or availability to race. It's why you have assists in the first place.

It's just a case of acceptance of time vs effort. I'm very sure that, although I wouldn't be winning races in leagues, if I devoted time and energy into learning my natural pace without assists, I'd be at the top of the midfield and fighting for podiums. But, I can't, so I'm happy with racing for points and having fun. 

Like anything, if you want to be at the top of your performance level, its about putting in the practice. But the core use of ABS in the game has not changed from last year in terms of trade off. You are trading off ultimate performance for a more predictable stopping method.

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I understand the arguments very well and even share them!

I just don't understand why the ABS off advantage is not twice as big?
There would still be no world difference, but the reward would be fairer!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BarryBL said:

On issues like "Insert thing here is OP" threads we always proceed with extreme caution. We had 9 months of pad vs wheel debates, even though we investigated TT times across all methods of driving, and in fact, pad and wheel are balanced (just with different strengths and weaknesses)

I'm fortunate enough to have a TT leaderboard you all see, and a friends PC leaderboard which is a large proportion of the hardcore players on that platform. The known elite players are, and always have been, running with ABS off. Until I get reliable feedback from them with concrete evidence (which im sure they'd happily provide if they thought something was wrong), I feel the assist works fine and is no advantange.

Under the discussion in this thread, running TC Medium and ABS On is alledgely hugely overpowed. I can assure you its not, as they are my normal settings for league racing (I dont get the time these days to practice on-track, and my right foot is rather heavy 😛 ). I run midfield in the forum championships and always have, regardless of settings changes. 

Outright pace is outright pace for me. Removing assists makes you quicker, but its harder. Makes sense. Time vs effort. I don't get a lot of time to practice racing pace and long run compared to our top league guys, so I'm in the midfield. I think thats fair enough - (I like the midfield scrap btw, drives me mad but a good fight anywhere is my favourite thing in racing)

Esport guys wouldn't even use ABS as it's forbidden in those live events. So now you are comparing top of the top players (who are getting paid for driving) against some others who do it for fun. If you check PS4 zandvoort for an example, you see that ABS players are doing 1:07.9 times - which are equal to what those esport players are doing. Sounds right?

Here is one of the fastest pad players on PS4 telling his opinions about ABS: 

I'm also pretty sure I have seen esports guys complain about ABS (at least about pad) but most of those tweets are deleted as they got s*it storm. You can see similar feedback about ABS from Louis Welch who is probably the fastest pad player in the world. Even I feel like ABS is faster than ABS off after few laps (and i haven't used in years). I'm not the slowest guy either, missed pro draft only by 0.1s in Ps4 at playoff series on the last game. So yeah, there are complains about this - you just need to listen/read them.

Edited by Arttu1202
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nas00 said:

Late to the party but this is spot on. Just include the assists options for the host instead of trying to please everyone which they'll never be able to.

I don't use it this year and I find it more rewarding and easier to use than last year where I litterally locked-up at almost every corner without ABS.

Well I used to play with ABS off in earlier installments but I get older, I don't have as much time anymore as I used to and hence I slowly fade into the casual player league.

Hence why I have left turned the assists on for 2020 because it is no fun if the few hours I get to play I then lock up on every 5th turn because I have not that much practice anymore. Also 2020 feels kinda a bit different than 2018 felt when it comes to car balance/handling but I can't exactly say what it is.

But that is also why I know that ingame driving with Brake assist+ABS on is at least somewhat slower and at best equal as fast as if you'd play without those assists. The game then just wants to play it safe so you are almost guaranteed to make the turn and hence breaks/shifts earlier than you could without. Especially with Brake Assist to maximum it feels like you are on a rail much like the AI and like you are only rewarded if you drive exactly as specified on the dynamic racing line which isn't always the fastest racing line and is useless if you are in overtake maneuvers.

Edited by MeduSalem
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49 minutes ago, Arttu1202 said:

Esport guys wouldn't even use ABS as it's forbidden in those live events. So now you are comparing top of the top players (who are getting paid for driving) against some others who do it for fun. If you check PS4 zandvoort for an example, you see that ABS players are doing 1:07.9 times - which are equal to what those esport players are doing. Sounds right?

Here is one of the fastest pad players on PS4 telling his opinions about ABS: 

I'm also pretty sure I have seen esports guys complain about ABS (at least about pad) but most of those tweets are deleted as they got s*it storm. You can see similar feedback about ABS from Louis Welch who is probably the fastest pad player in the world. Even I feel like ABS is faster than ABS off after few laps (and i haven't used in years). I'm not the slowest guy either, missed pro draft only by 0.1s in Ps4 at playoff series on the last game. So yeah, there are complains about this - you just need to listen/read them.

Then CM should listen to such people and read what is in the linked text / picture!

If you don't take normal players seriously ...

 

Just the many views that this thread has make clear how important the topic is.

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Posted (edited)

Australia dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters) there are only 9 ABS users and the fastest one is in 54th. Most of TOP 100 in this track, do not use any assist.
Zandvoort dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters), there are 23 ABS users, fastest one is 19th. Most of TOP 100 in this track, do not use any assist.
Baku dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters), there are 33 ABS users, fastest one is 10th. Baku can be an outlier because you can brake and turn at the same time with ABS. Again, most of TOP 100 in this track, DO NOT USE ANY ASSIST.

If you do not want any ABS user on your league: simple, turn it off. There are plenty of leagues around where ABS (and/or other assists are turned off). But no, IT ISN'T faster. Simple. At the most, its equal pace. Which doesn't make sense because ABS in real life would be faster.

Edited by Costa

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One complication with attempting to 'nerf' ABS performance would be what would happen with existing TT times set using this? Unless they were wiped (which seems unlikely?) there would be thousands of times that are no longer representative of what the drivers could achieve.

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Posted (edited)

I have to agree on this. I am an average player but I like to exploit the car to the fullest of my possibilities by playing with all mechanical assists off. After multiple tests and attempts in switching between tc off and medium and abs on and off, I figured out that with abs on I gain 5-6 tenths per lap, assuming and presumptuously thinking it's not due to me not being able to master obs off, as in 2019 i was able to drive with abs off and actually gaining time compared to abs on, as with abs off you can use all braking power. My thought is that so far what's missing is the feeling of reward of pulling off better lap times due to assists off, and if I can exploit full braking power with abs on thus being able to apply full brake more effectively when cornering then something looks like a put-off to me, as there will be no point in practicing with assists off if all in all I will have no advantage from it. I will pursue assists off in single player, but as I am part of a league where restrictions are traction control on medium or less and abs can be on, there is no point in playing with assists off when you cannot be competitive. That's my 2 cents as a middle-class maybe just a bit above average driver, not a pro or a Youtuber but part of the greater audience that Codemasters look for pleasing with the game.

Edited by HenricusVonG
Edited for spelling
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9 hours ago, Costa said:

Australia dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters) there are only 9 ABS users and the fastest one is in 54th. Most of TOP 100 in this track, do not use any assist.
Zandvoort dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters), there are 23 ABS users, fastest one is 19th. Most of TOP 100 in this track, do not use any assist.
Baku dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters), there are 33 ABS users, fastest one is 10th. Baku can be an outlier because you can brake and turn at the same time with ABS. Again, most of TOP 100 in this track, DO NOT USE ANY ASSIST.

If you do not want any ABS user on your league: simple, turn it off. There are plenty of leagues around where ABS (and/or other assists are turned off). But no, IT ISN'T faster. Simple. At the most, its equal pace. Which doesn't make sense because ABS in real life would be faster.

I agree with what you are saying but you aren't factoring in that on PC, the percentage of players not using ABS is higher than the percentage of players not using ABS on console.

That being said, you are correct, if you don't want to race with people using ABS then don't race in an assist league. And if you're complaining that somebody on top of the TT leaderboard has done a time with ABS on, wait until an esports driver properly grinds it out and then you'll see its not actually faster, if anything its just equal.

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11 hours ago, Costa said:

Australia dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters) there are only 9 ABS users and the fastest one is in 54th. Most of TOP 100 in this track, do not use any assist.
Zandvoort dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters), there are 23 ABS users, fastest one is 19th. Most of TOP 100 in this track, do not use any assist.
Baku dry TT times, PC. On top 100 (without accounting for the cheaters), there are 33 ABS users, fastest one is 10th. Baku can be an outlier because you can brake and turn at the same time with ABS. Again, most of TOP 100 in this track, DO NOT USE ANY ASSIST.

Australia dry TT times, PS4. On top 100 there are 44 ABS users and the fastest one is in 2nd (1:18.523). 5 out of Top10 times are with ABS.

Zandvoort dry TT times, PS4. On top 100 there are 58 ABS users, the fastest one is 1st (1:07.848). 9 out of top10 times are with ABS.

Baku dry TT times, PS4. On top 100 there are 48 ABS users, the fastest one is 1st (1:36.697). 6 out of top10 times are with ABS.

Bahrain dry TT times, PS4. On top 100 there are 59 ABS users, the fastest one is 1st (1:24.391). 6 out of Top10 times are with ABS.

So please think again. Seeing that around 50% of top100 times are done with ABS is way too much. 10% would be more reasonable if those are guys are really fast. I think that 10% would be closer to the number what there were on the last game on PS4. Also I'm seeing guys in top10 on those leaderboards who barely made to top50 with ABS on last game. This just shows that ABS is way too good now.

2 hours ago, maxibone33 said:

And if you're complaining that somebody on top of the TT leaderboard has done a time with ABS on, wait until an esports driver properly grinds it out and then you'll see its not actually faster, if anything its just equal.

I don't think that this is good comparison at all. Those guys are super quick on other areas also than just braking, their cornering speed and traction out of corners are insane. So if you start comparing some random guys with ABS on esport guys, then of course it looks like assists aren't so strong. However anyone with assists on shouldn't be withing 1 second of those esport guys.

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