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Track Limits and Penalty System(Multiplayer)

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Posted (edited)

My problem is not with the penalty system per say, but how the penalties themselves are calibrated. All racing games that I've played have an imperfect penalty system, for example, the...player, who intentionally crashes into another player, even when clear as day, is not always, or even usually the one who gets punished. I get it, this stuff isn't perfect, and the algorithms do the best they can. The idea is that, over time, those who are consistently causing crashes will get caught in the systems and their rating will reflect that, makes sense.

Drivers who take an extra 6 inches on a corner(entry or exit) do not deserve to be lumped into the 'D' grade safety rating as those who intentionally cause crashes! I've done 3.5 seasons on My Team mode and have learned the tracks and their limits pretty well on 'Regular' corner cutting stringency. 

However, if you chose to play ranked multiplayer mode, you will consistently be nailed with track limits warnings at the very least, and penalties in the worst case. Credit where credits due, the game does recognize, 6 inches of extra tarmac is not worthy of a penalty, even if that 6 inches happens multiple times in a race. The problem arises after the race, when the game assumes that because you had multiple warnings, that you weren't driving safe. <---This needs to change! Drivers getting multiple warnings for taking the smallest of liberties with the track, as is allowed under "Regular" corner cutting settings(which is truly the closest to real life settings), should not be penalized anywhere near the equivalent of drivers consistently in collisions with other drivers when it comes to safety ratings or even the initial time penalties themselves.

I never, and I stress never, intentionally crash someone, and yet my safety rating puts me in with the worst of the worst. And it's because I have gotten used to the game and its tracks on a penalty system that more resembles real life, then the 'Strict' setting that's mandatory for ranked online play.

And I get it, I do. Give the players an inch(or 6) and they'll take(a foot or) a mile. Regardless of that, minor corner cuts or extended track limits(to a certain extent) is just no where near the infraction as being an intentional and/or frequent collision causer, not even close, and the penalty system should reflect that.

Edited by Newtown99
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Were the online lobbies you are referring to using Regular of Strict corner cutting rules? From your comments I'm wondering if they were set to Strict...

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Newtown99 said:

My problem is not with the penalty system per say, but how the penalties themselves are calibrated. All racing games that I've played have an imperfect penalty system, for example, the...player, who intentionally crashes into another player, even when clear as day, is not always, or even usually the one who gets punished. I get it, this stuff isn't perfect, and the algorithms do the best they can. The idea is that, over time, those who are consistently causing crashes will get caught in the systems and their rating will reflect that, makes sense.

Drivers who take an extra 6 inches on a corner(entry or exit) do not deserve to be lumped into the 'D' grade safety rating as those who intentionally cause crashes! I've done 3.5 seasons on My Team mode and have learned the tracks and their limits pretty well on 'Regular' corner cutting stringency. 

However, if you chose to play ranked multiplayer mode, you will consistently be nailed with track limits warnings at the very least, and penalties in the worst case. Credit where credits due, the game does recognize, 6 inches of extra tarmac is not worthy of a penalty, even if that 6 inches happens multiple times in a race. The problem arises after the race, when the game assumes that because you had multiple warnings, that you weren't driving safe. <---This needs to change! Drivers getting multiple warnings for taking the smallest of liberties with the track, as is allowed under "Regular" corner cutting settings(which is truly the closest to real life settings), should not be penalized anywhere near the equivalent of drivers consistently in collisions with other drivers when it comes to safety ratings or even the initial time penalties themselves.

I never, and I stress never, intentionally crash someone, and yet my safety rating puts me in with the worst of the worst. And it's because I have gotten used to the game and its tracks on a penalty system that more resembles real life, then the 'Strict' setting that's mandatory for ranked online play.

And I get it, I do. Give the players an inch(or 6) and they'll take(a foot or) a mile. Regardless of that, minor corner cuts or extended track limits(to a certain extent) is just no where near the infraction as being an intentional and/or frequent collision causer, not even close, and the penalty system should reflect that.

Minor corner cuts and track extends mostly gain you time so it’s not fair for the people who keep It on the track

Edited by SomaticCoast375

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Posted (edited)

I like the track limits but as you say the penalty system needs a tweak.

 

However your actual point of those who track extend or corner cut should not be around those that collide with everything and everyone l, I completely agree with. Why does corner cutting or track extending affect your safety rating? Safety rating should be purely based on how safe you are driving i.e. crashes or dirty tactics leading to an incident like aggressive squeezing causing a another driver to crash (hard to code I know).

 

Maybe a blatant corner cut could be considered unsafe and therefore affect your ranking but track extending definitely not. The idea is that they'll get penalised by the in-race penalty system for these and just leave it at that quite frankly. Hardly unsafe.

Edited by martbloke
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Ultra3142 said:

Were the online lobbies you are referring to using Regular of Strict corner cutting rules? From your comments I'm wondering if they were set to Strict...

It was ranked which only has the strict option, but the point is multiple warnings in game for cutting (if it had been a severe cut, it would have been a penalty) should not affect your safety rating. Especially considering this type of 'cutting' is usually just the normal racing line IRL. I read somewhere that the strict setting means 2 wheels must be on the track at all times.  I'm not sure if it's true but seems to make sense from what I've seen so far. If that is the case, then that is far from how F1 actually works and most importantly, not dangerous in the least to go slightly beyond that.

Basically, if you don't get an actual penalty in the race, then your safety rank should not be affected when it comes to corner cutting, and even when penalties are handed out, they shouldn't be anywhere near as severe as those who wreck frequently and/or intentionally.

 

Edited by Newtown99

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Newtown99 said:

I read somewhere that the strict setting means 2 wheels must be on the track at all times.  I'm not sure if it's true but seems to make sense from what I've seen so far. If that is the case, then that is far from how F1 actually works

I believe this is how it works in game and this reflects the written rules of F1. The tricky part is that from race to race there are track-specific agreements on where these rules will not be strictly enforced. There have been a few threads discussing this but for me it ultimately comes down to the fact it's the same rules for everyone and is at least more straightforward to know where the limits are on every track. If you're going to race online using these limits I'd be tempted to do the same for your offline play too, so you're used to them.

Edit: I'll just add that Regular track limits doesn't match real F1 either, as it's way to lenient.

do agree that exceeding track limits isn't inherently dangerous and this should be link to collisions, and in an ideal world causing other cars to take avoiding action but we're obviously a long way off that!

Edited by Ultra3142
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20 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

I believe this is how it works in game and this reflects the written rules of F1. The tricky part is that from race to race there are track-specific agreements on where these rules will not be strictly enforce. There have been a few threads discussing this but for me it ultimately comes down to the fact it's the same rules for everyone and is at least more straightforward to know where the limits are on every track. If you're going to race online using these limits I'd be tempted to do the same for your offline play too, so you're used to them.

Edit: I'll just add that Regular track limits doesn't match real F1 either, as it's way to lenient.

do agree that exceeding track limits isn't inherently dangerous and this should be link to collisions, and in an ideal world causing other cars to take avoiding action but we're obviously a long way off that!

As you said, F1 has an inconsistency enforcing the 2 wheel rule, so while it may technically be the rule, its only on specific circuits and specific corners that it's enforced. I think F1 actually does a pretty good job enforcing limits, as some corners will punish you anyway if you go to too wide, whats the need to enforce the 2 wheel rule? The best examples I can think of off the top of my head are Austrailia T14, or Monza Lesmo 1. If you go wide here, you're in the gravel and will just be lucky to save it, but if you apply a one size fits all 2 wheel rule to it, then you get a penalty or a warning as well. 

All of that is a little besides the point though, although surely an area for improvement. The game seems to do a decent job distinguishing from honest/accidental corner cuts and blatantly trying to gain an advantage, they should have the same sensibilities when it comes to the safety ratings, and they don't. 

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I've noticed that wall penalties are highly inconsistent as well. For example, my habit of overcorrecting after hitting walls has caused me to riccochet accross the track several times after walloping a wall without penalty, yet I've been penalized for having just a tyre's trailing edge hit the wall on a few occasions.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Newtown99 said:

As you said, F1 has an inconsistency enforcing the 2 wheel rule, so while it may technically be the rule, its only on specific circuits and specific corners that it's enforced. I think F1 actually does a pretty good job enforcing limits, as some corners will punish you anyway if you go to too wide, whats the need to enforce the 2 wheel rule?

The alternative would be writing down what was allowed for every turn of every track, which would be madness. Only having two wheels still means over half the car is off the track so it's not exactly stringent. I take your point about it not always being advantageous but clearly a lot of the time it is.

Quote

The best examples I can think of off the top of my head are Austrailia T14, or Monza Lesmo 1. If you go wide here, you're in the gravel and will just be lucky to save it, but if you apply a one size fits all 2 wheel rule to it, then you get a penalty or a warning as well. 

Whether you get a warning/penalty depends on how much time you lose going off. If you properly go off into a gravel trap you won't get penalised.

15 minutes ago, TurkeySloth2107 said:

I've noticed that wall penalties are highly inconsistent as well. For example, my habit of overcorrecting after hitting walls has caused me to riccochet accross the track several times after walloping a wall without penalty, yet I've been penalized for having just a tyre's trailing edge hit the wall on a few occasions.

As with the gravel trap example, you may have lost enough time/speed due to bouncing back across the track that a warning/penalty wasn't triggered.

Edited by Ultra3142

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I agree with you, corner-cutting shouldn't be too harsh on the player's ranking. I think it could be toned down a little bit.

Time penalties in-race should stay as they are, obviously.

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On 7/31/2020 at 4:39 PM, Ultra3142 said:

The alternative would be writing down what was allowed for every turn of every track, which would be madness. Only having two wheels still means over half the car is off the track so it's not exactly stringent. I take your point about it not always being advantageous but clearly a lot of the time it is.

I really think in the future they should aim for a penalty system along these lines if they want to go for realism and I don't think it'd necessarily have to be madness. Have 4 (or so) different categories of corner ie Strict, Normal and Lenient and Off(for example, turn one at Spa - there is no way a warning/penalty should be given for cutting as close the the wall as you can get) and give each corner a rating.  The amount of detail that already goes into each individual track, surely its couldn't be too hard to have individual corner cutting ratings for each corner as well.

Quote

Whether you get a warning/penalty depends on how much time you lose going off. If you properly go off into a gravel trap you won't get penalised.

I don't think its that precise. For example, you losing time could still be the fastest I've ever gone through a corner. If you touch the gravel trap even with just an inch or two of your tire you will lose a not so insignificant amount of speed and therefore could not have gained an advantage. This makes the penalty system redundant, even if its just a warning, it's unnecessary and will affect your overall safety rating (again this is where my primary issue lies). Arguably, it could be considered less safe if you don't save it and end up spinning out. Yet there would be no effect to your rating, because you lost all of your speed. 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/31/2020 at 4:24 PM, TurkeySloth2107 said:

I've noticed that wall penalties are highly inconsistent as well. For example, my habit of overcorrecting after hitting walls has caused me to riccochet accross the track several times after walloping a wall without penalty, yet I've been penalized for having just a tyre's trailing edge hit the wall on a few occasions.

I think the hitting a wall penalty is only there to stop people intentionally bouncing off walls without damage, enabling them to go quicker through a corner. If I'm correct, then because you've bounced across the track, and have lost or will continue to lose speed, the game won't penalize you. However, a minor glance at full speed, without losing a significant amount of time could run a foul of the penalty system. It probably could use fine tuning as well, as light touches with a wall are not usually a major problem in real F1 either, but too much and their race is over.

I used the wall bouncing technique myself during the CART World Series days with no penalties, and I assume that style of driving is still possible if the right circumstances arise. 

Edited by Newtown99

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23 hours ago, Newtown99 said:

(for example, turn one at Spa - there is no way a warning/penalty should be given for cutting as close the the wall as you can get) 

 

Completely disagree. Don't care what corner it is but if you cut it with 4 wheel outside the track line however little, you should get a warning/penalty. Corner cutting is a big no no from me.

 

It's track extensions that should allow leniency but only when you do not gain out of doing so. If you gain in some way, a warning/penalty is justified.

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7 hours ago, martbloke said:

 

Completely disagree. Don't care what corner it is but if you cut it with 4 wheel outside the track line however little, you should get a warning/penalty. Corner cutting is a big no no from me.

 

It's track extensions that should allow leniency but only when you do not gain out of doing so. If you gain in some way, a warning/penalty is justified.

For T1 a Spa, perhaps it wasn't the best example because its a corner cut but my point is that there's no need to enforce track limits on corners where there's physical track limits anyway (ie wall, gravel or sometimes grass), even if it extends the 2 wheel rule. This seems to be the way the FIA looks at these types of corners as well. The difference between the most you can take legally (according to the 2 wheel rule), and the most you can take physically is minuscule on many corners. My belief is that if the advantage that could be gained is negligible, the FIA will not bother to enforce those corners. We heard it before Hungary: 'FIA is enforcing track limits on exits of turns 4, 11 and 12.' Why not the whole track? Because the rest of the track denies the opportunity for a significant advantage to be gained**. Turns 3 and 5 are good examples where the game will warn/penalize you, but it's redundant because if you've gone that wide, you've already lost time.

**This doesn't include if a driver were to intentionally blow through a chicane like T7, but both the game and the FIA pick that up easily so it doesn't need to be monitored closely. 

But again, back to my original bone of contention, corner cutting/extension warnings (not penalties) affecting your safety rating: I'm now wondering if its actually broken, although it'd be quite odd if I were the only one noticing it. I just played ranked multiplayer for roughly three hours and paid close attention to my safety rating. I did not receive a single penalty yet my safety rating dropped by a net 10+ points, all of it due to corner warnings. Even in races where I managed not to get a single warning, my safety rating only improved by 1% per race, where as it appears to drop by at least 1% for each warning. 

It's dumb, I'm not driving unsafe. I'm now trying my hardest not to cut or go wide on corners which can cost me a ridiculous amount of time as I'm not perfect and miss my braking point from time to time. And the cherry to top it off, even when I've lost a significant amount of time trying to ensure I navigate a corner 'legally', the game is often not recognizing the lost time and warning me anyway. 

So now I get the luxury of dealing with a new a**hole every couple of races who takes more pleasure punting someone off the road, than actually racing them. And its all because I miss my braking point a couple of times a race or don't always accurately judge the exact millisecond I can get on the power.

There's an easy fix CM, just don't tie corner warnings to your safety rating. The game already calculates that multiple warnings = a penalty, why not just wait for a penalty to be assessed before affecting the safety rating? 

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Ah OK I get what you're saying and yes the track limits could be better if it followed real world for a lot of people but that changes from race to race and so Codies would have a tough time following what they decide each weekend and updating the game.  Strict is fine because you can see where the limit is so drive within it. The penalty system does need some work to judge how much time is/could be gained to properly initiate warnings/penalties. That's the issue in my mind.

 

I also agree with you about warnings/penalties for track limits shouldn't really be affecting safety rating. That's daft IMO. Maybe a major corner cut perhaps but even then that's debatable.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/3/2020 at 5:59 AM, martbloke said:

Ah OK I get what you're saying and yes the track limits could be better if it followed real world for a lot of people but that changes from race to race and so Codies would have a tough time following what they decide each weekend and updating the game.  Strict is fine because you can see where the limit is so drive within it. The penalty system does need some work to judge how much time is/could be gained to properly initiate warnings/penalties. That's the issue in my mind.

 

I also agree with you about warnings/penalties for track limits shouldn't really be affecting safety rating. That's daft IMO. Maybe a major corner cut perhaps but even then that's debatable.

Cheers, glad my explanation helped clear up my concerns up for you. I've just played a few more hours and think I have a better understanding of how the penalty system actually works. 

I played ranked multiplayer again, but before I started, I checked out my Super License and was shocked to see that I had nearly as many penalties, as I had races contested. While dumbfounded at first, I eventually realized the problem: when you get DQ'd from qualifying for a corner infraction, regardless of how insignificant the infraction is, the game penalizes you the same as if you were to have blasted through the Nouvelle Chicane in Monaco at without lifting. 

The reason my safety rating was only increasing by 1 pt per race is because I had lost so many % points being penalized for screwing up my qualifying lap, somewhere around 5 pts per race by my best estimate. This, once again, seems pretty dumb if intentional. If you cut a corner, you're already starting from the back(ish) of the field, why deny any chance for the player to improve their safety rating in the race as well?

Regardless, I learned my lesson, and no matter how bad my lap would end up being, I made sure I didn't cut/extend corners in qualifying. Sure enough, I was able to raise my safety rating by 50+ points over a few hours even getting the odd corner cut/extension warning during races. 

Now that I have it figured it out, I'm not too concerned that I'll be able to get back up to where it should be, but without question, CM's logic with regards to corner cuts/extensions is flawed, especially in regards to qualifying.

I'd suggest first having a better understanding of what constitutes gaining an advantage, and then cracking down on players who consistently run afoul of the warning system by gaining an advantage. Then, ignore safety rating consequences altogether when it comes qualifying, if you get DQ'd, that's penalty enough, what does it have to do with safety first of all? And second, if you can make it through the field without getting collision warnings, then your safety rating should go up significantly. 

Those are my suggestions, as of today anyway.

  

Edited by Newtown99

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On 8/2/2020 at 12:00 AM, Newtown99 said:

I really think in the future they should aim for a penalty system along these lines if they want to go for realism and I don't think it'd necessarily have to be madness. Have 4 (or so) different categories of corner ie Strict, Normal and Lenient and Off(for example, turn one at Spa - there is no way a warning/penalty should be given for cutting as close the the wall as you can get) and give each corner a rating.  The amount of detail that already goes into each individual track, surely its couldn't be too hard to have individual corner cutting ratings for each corner as well.

Sorry, I missed this reply. My comment about having specific rules for every single corner being madness actually related to the real world rather than the game, although personally I'd prefer something more consistent in the game too just so that I understand what the rules are rather than having to try to work it out for every corner of every track!

On 8/2/2020 at 12:00 AM, Newtown99 said:

I don't think its that precise. For example, you losing time could still be the fastest I've ever gone through a corner. If you touch the gravel trap even with just an inch or two of your tire you will lose a not so insignificant amount of speed and therefore could not have gained an advantage. This makes the penalty system redundant, even if its just a warning, it's unnecessary...

I didn't say anything about precise distinctions :classic_smile:. I don't agree with your other point here though, as if just brushing a gravel trap loses a small amount of time compared to just not doing so, there could still be a significant advantage over the speed you could take the corner if you needed to be certain you weren't going to stray over the limit. Consider how you'd drive differently if there was a wall in the same position. I don't know exactly how the game works but it does seem reasonable to me that it responds differently to small infringements and someone losing control and going way off track.

On 8/2/2020 at 12:00 AM, Newtown99 said:

...and will affect your overall safety rating (again this is where my primary issue lies). Arguably, it could be considered less safe if you don't save it and end up spinning out. Yet there would be no effect to your rating, because you lost all of your speed. 

A separate point as I'd agreed above.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Ultra3142 said:

Sorry, I missed this reply. My comment about having specific rules for every single corner being madness actually related to the real world rather than the game, although personally I'd prefer something more consistent in the game too just so that I understand what the rules are rather than having to try to work it out for every corner of every track!

 

Thanks for the reply, and I get what you're saying about consistency but I think we'll have to agree to disagree. As I explained my position here:

Quote

For T1 a Spa, perhaps it wasn't the best example because its a corner cut but my point is that there's no need to enforce track limits on corners where there's physical track limits anyway (ie wall, gravel or sometimes grass), even if it extends the 2 wheel rule. This seems to be the way the FIA looks at these types of corners as well. The difference between the most you can take legally (according to the 2 wheel rule), and the most you can take physically is minuscule on many corners. My belief is that if the advantage that could be gained is negligible, the FIA will not bother to enforce those corners. We heard it before Hungary: 'FIA is enforcing track limits on exits of turns 4, 11 and 12.' Why not the whole track? Because the rest of the track denies the opportunity for a significant advantage to be gained**. Turns 3 and 5 are good examples where the game will warn/penalize you, but it's redundant because if you've gone that wide, you've already lost time.

**This doesn't include if a driver were to intentionally blow through a chicane like T7, but both the game and the FIA pick that up easily so it doesn't need to be monitored closely.

Admittedly, I could see how this type of system could be harder to implement but I think it would lead to a more realistic game. 

I've played F1 games since the '90's so I've seen how the penalty systems have evolved. I think the strict setting has gone a little over kill in the past couple of years, but I've also seen it not being strong enough so I understand why they're using a one size fits all approach. But I think they can do better and while I've pointed out numerous corners already where the game will punish you (or take a great lap away from you in Qualifying, or TT) here's another. Last turn at Zandvoort. You don't even need to touch the gravel on the exit, you just need to take all of the curb and your lap will be penalized.  That's not how it'd work IRL, and its not how it should work in the game, IMO anyway.

But as I've said numerous times, I can live with what they have now, just don't be so punitive on the safety rating and I'd be happy.

Edited by Newtown99

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