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About tyre pressures

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@David Greco CM

Something is confusing. Please help me.

You said that.

More tyre pressure -> Less grip

More tyre pressure -> More temperature

More tyre pressure -> Less wear

 

But in reality, if we have less grip, the probability of losing the back of the car is higher, that results higher temperature and more wear.

And about temperature, if the temperature is higher when the pressure is high, shouldn't it result in higher wear? Wear of tyre on your model is dependent only in temperature and of course the mileage. 

 

I am curious whether the tyre pressure model has some problems.  

 

What are you thinking guys? And @David Greco CM

 

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Posted (edited)

Tyre wear is a complicated topic and I see no way around it other than going back at the basics. The alternative would be tons of terms and ideas being thrown around based on misconceptions.

Tyre wear has two causes: heat degradation and physical abrasion.

Your tyres degrade by running above their temperature operating window. The compound starts to deteriorate and your rubber rubber is no more. Heat has two sources: the pressure inside the tyre chamber inside-out, and the friction from the track surface outside-in.

Your tyres will also wear out due to the abrasion simply from rolling on the tarmac surface, so imagine when you add all the scrubbing and dragging that inescapably happens between tyre and track when you drive around? That will simultaneously rub the rubber out and heat your tyre surface.

That said, there are two main tabs you need to have in mind when tweaking your setup for optimal tyre wear:

  • Tyre pressure.
    • More pressure means (1) more heat but also (2) less structural flex. With the latter, your tyre won't give in so much when you turn so all the effects of the next bullet point will be lessened. On the other hand, with less structural flex you have less grip all around, so your performance specially on corners take a hit. If you follow F1 for real you'll probably hear about how Pirelli always struggle to make the teams run their tyres above a minimum pressure; if let by the teams' desire they would run their tyres with as low pressure as possible for maximum performance.
    • Less pressure means (1) less heat but also (2) more structural flex, meaning your tyre will hug the tarmac passionately all the time giving you more grip specially on corners. 
  • Suspension geometry.
    • When you increase your negative camber you're decreasing the contact patch on the straights, decreasing the correlated grip which will naturally impact your acceleration (risk of wheel spinning when you're trying to put more power down than your rear axle grip allows for) and your braking (risk of wheel slippage when you're trying to brake beyond what your grip can abide to); and increasing it on corners, meaning more rubber in contact with the tarmac while turning;
    • When you increase your toe, be it toe out on the front or the toe in on the rear, inevitably you're increasing the tyre surface that will be constantly dragging and scrubbing against the tarmac in one moment or the other as there is no way the rolling axis of the wheel will always be perfectly aligned with the movement vector of your car when you go for a lap.

To a certain extent, your suspension settings also dictates tyre wear as you're directing how your car load will shift around whenever you're in a transient handling state: turning, accelerating and braking all make the weight shift around tremendously as a result of the high speeds and high forces always present on a lap. 

Depending on the scenario, you will lessen your tyre wear by increasing pressure on the overloaded tyres, protecting them from the rubbing off against the tarmac by making them more structurally sound. Less flex. Think of the left tyres on Silverstone or Catalunya. Sometimes though you'll have better wear rates by decreasing pressure, if the wear is coming from heat degradation for running too firm tyres. 

You mentioned grip. It is ever present in my explanation above but it may fly by people's head even so. Grip is king. Grip is responsible for transferring any forces between the car and the track. Acceleration, braking, and steering – they all depend on having sufficient grip. If you don't have enough grip, you lose traction and the wheels either spin or slip.

Grip effects vary depending on the axle. Not having enough grip on the front wheels will make steering harder, introducing understeer, as the front axle is the only one responsible for (literally) dragging the car out of its initial movement direction. Not having enough grip on the rear will introduce oversteer and make it harder to put the power down, giving you a twitchy car. 

All this to say that while there is indeed a link between losing or exceeding grip (two wholly different things) and losing your rear, it all depends on the scenario. Maybe your grip issue will manifest in you not having an efficient front axle, giving you understeer or, even worse, understeer halfway in + snap oversteer mid corner to corner exit. 

In closing: there's a reason for us having carcass temperature and surface temperature on the MFD. 

Edited by marioho
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3 hours ago, marioho said:

Tyre wear is a complicated topic and I see no way around it other than going back at the basics. The alternative would be tons of terms and ideas being thrown around based on misconceptions.

Tyre wear has two causes: heat degradation and physical abrasion.

Your tyres degrade by running above their temperature operating window. The compound starts to deteriorate and your rubber rubber is no more. Heat has two sources: the pressure inside the tyre chamber inside-out, and the friction from the track surface outside-in.

Your tyres will also wear out due to the abrasion simply from rolling on the tarmac surface, so imagine when you add all the scrubbing and dragging that inescapably happens between tyre and track when you drive around? That will simultaneously rub the rubber out and heat your tyre surface.

That said, there are two main tabs you need to have in mind when tweaking your setup for optimal tyre wear:

  • Tyre pressure.
    • More pressure means (1) more heat but also (2) less structural flex. With the latter, your tyre won't give in so much when you turn so all the effects of the next bullet point will be lessened. On the other hand, with less structural flex you have less grip all around, so your performance specially on corners take a hit. If you follow F1 for real you'll probably hear about how Pirelli always struggle to make the teams run their tyres above a minimum pressure; if let by the teams' desire they would run their tyres with as low pressure as possible for maximum performance.
    • Less pressure means (1) less heat but also (2) more structural flex, meaning your tyre will hug the tarmac passionately all the time giving you more grip specially on corners. 
  • Suspension geometry.
    • When you increase your negative camber you're decreasing the contact patch on the straights, decreasing the correlated grip which will naturally impact your acceleration (risk of wheel spinning when you're trying to put more power down than your rear axle grip allows for) and your braking (risk of wheel slippage when you're trying to brake beyond what your grip can abide to); and increasing it on corners, meaning more rubber in contact with the tarmac while turning;
    • When you increase your toe, be it toe out on the front or the toe in on the rear, inevitably you're increasing the tyre surface that will be constantly dragging and scrubbing against the tarmac in one moment or the other as there is no way the rolling axis of the wheel will always be perfectly aligned with the movement vector of your car when you go for a lap.

To a certain extent, your suspension settings also dictates tyre wear as you're directing how your car load will shift around whenever you're in a transient handling state: turning, accelerating and braking all make the weight shift around tremendously as a result of the high speeds and high forces always present on a lap. 

Depending on the scenario, you will lessen your tyre wear by increasing pressure on the overloaded tyres, protecting them from the rubbing off against the tarmac by making them more structurally sound. Less flex. Think of the left tyres on Silverstone or Catalunya. Sometimes though you'll have better wear rates by decreasing pressure, if the wear is coming from heat degradation for running too firm tyres. 

You mentioned grip. It is ever present in my explanation above but it may fly by people's head even so. Grip is king. Grip is responsible for transferring any forces between the car and the track. Acceleration, braking, and steering – they all depend on having sufficient grip. If you don't have enough grip, you lose traction and the wheels either spin or slip.

Grip effects vary depending on the axle. Not having enough grip on the front wheels will make steering harder, introducing understeer, as the front axle is the only one responsible for (literally) dragging the car out of its initial movement direction. Not having enough grip on the rear will introduce oversteer and make it harder to put the power down, giving you a twitchy car. 

All this to say that while there is indeed a link between losing or exceeding grip (two wholly different things) and losing your rear, it all depends on the scenario. Maybe your grip issue will manifest in you not having an efficient front axle, giving you understeer or, even worse, understeer halfway in + snap oversteer mid corner to corner exit. 

In closing: there's a reason for us having carcass temperature and surface temperature on the MFD. 

Very well detailed. Why don’t you write an article or even book about setups?

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7 hours ago, marioho said:

Tyre wear is a complicated topic and I see no way around it other than going back at the basics. The alternative would be tons of terms and ideas being thrown around based on misconceptions.

Tyre wear has two causes: heat degradation and physical abrasion.

Your tyres degrade by running above their temperature operating window. The compound starts to deteriorate and your rubber rubber is no more. Heat has two sources: the pressure inside the tyre chamber inside-out, and the friction from the track surface outside-in.

Your tyres will also wear out due to the abrasion simply from rolling on the tarmac surface, so imagine when you add all the scrubbing and dragging that inescapably happens between tyre and track when you drive around? That will simultaneously rub the rubber out and heat your tyre surface.

That said, there are two main tabs you need to have in mind when tweaking your setup for optimal tyre wear:

  • Tyre pressure.
    • More pressure means (1) more heat but also (2) less structural flex. With the latter, your tyre won't give in so much when you turn so all the effects of the next bullet point will be lessened. On the other hand, with less structural flex you have less grip all around, so your performance specially on corners take a hit. If you follow F1 for real you'll probably hear about how Pirelli always struggle to make the teams run their tyres above a minimum pressure; if let by the teams' desire they would run their tyres with as low pressure as possible for maximum performance.
    • Less pressure means (1) less heat but also (2) more structural flex, meaning your tyre will hug the tarmac passionately all the time giving you more grip specially on corners. 
  • Suspension geometry.
    • When you increase your negative camber you're decreasing the contact patch on the straights, decreasing the correlated grip which will naturally impact your acceleration (risk of wheel spinning when you're trying to put more power down than your rear axle grip allows for) and your braking (risk of wheel slippage when you're trying to brake beyond what your grip can abide to); and increasing it on corners, meaning more rubber in contact with the tarmac while turning;
    • When you increase your toe, be it toe out on the front or the toe in on the rear, inevitably you're increasing the tyre surface that will be constantly dragging and scrubbing against the tarmac in one moment or the other as there is no way the rolling axis of the wheel will always be perfectly aligned with the movement vector of your car when you go for a lap.

To a certain extent, your suspension settings also dictates tyre wear as you're directing how your car load will shift around whenever you're in a transient handling state: turning, accelerating and braking all make the weight shift around tremendously as a result of the high speeds and high forces always present on a lap. 

Depending on the scenario, you will lessen your tyre wear by increasing pressure on the overloaded tyres, protecting them from the rubbing off against the tarmac by making them more structurally sound. Less flex. Think of the left tyres on Silverstone or Catalunya. Sometimes though you'll have better wear rates by decreasing pressure, if the wear is coming from heat degradation for running too firm tyres. 

You mentioned grip. It is ever present in my explanation above but it may fly by people's head even so. Grip is king. Grip is responsible for transferring any forces between the car and the track. Acceleration, braking, and steering – they all depend on having sufficient grip. If you don't have enough grip, you lose traction and the wheels either spin or slip.

Grip effects vary depending on the axle. Not having enough grip on the front wheels will make steering harder, introducing understeer, as the front axle is the only one responsible for (literally) dragging the car out of its initial movement direction. Not having enough grip on the rear will introduce oversteer and make it harder to put the power down, giving you a twitchy car. 

All this to say that while there is indeed a link between losing or exceeding grip (two wholly different things) and losing your rear, it all depends on the scenario. Maybe your grip issue will manifest in you not having an efficient front axle, giving you understeer or, even worse, understeer halfway in + snap oversteer mid corner to corner exit. 

In closing: there's a reason for us having carcass temperature and surface temperature on the MFD. 

Thank you for your detailed answer. I completely agree what you said. However, I am talking about the game not the real life.

As you know, Tyre wear in game is only depended on heat degradation. Suspension settings does not have a direct effect on tyre wear.  

@David Greco CM said More tyre pressure  ->  Less tyre wear  and Less tyre Pressure -> More tyre wear  If it is only the tyre temperature that controls the tyre wear(in the game), the statement is not correct.

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the problem with @marioho now is when you seen threads like this i now think there is little point in responding as Marioho can explain something in much better detail than i ever could so you end up waiting for the perfect reply from him !

Basically Marioho, don't leave the forum. Not without at least giving 4 weeks notice anyway... :classic_biggrin:

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5 hours ago, oner7 said:

Thank you for your detailed answer. I completely agree what you said. However, I am talking about the game not the real life.

As you know, Tyre wear in game is only depended on heat degradation. Suspension settings does not have a direct effect on tyre wear.  

@David Greco CM said More tyre pressure  ->  Less tyre wear  and Less tyre Pressure -> More tyre wear  If it is only the tyre temperature that controls the tyre wear(in the game), the statement is not correct.

I am 99% sure you got it wrong - I am convinced that there is no heat degradation of the tyres of any kind. I tried to find a confirmation from David Greco's Q&A but didn't find it at a quick glance. Heat only affects the grip of the tyre, and once you lose that, the degradation will increase but not directly because of temps. It makes sense because the AI cars don't have any tyre temperature issues. 

If it worked like you wrote, I wouldn't be able to wear out my tyres on a warm-up lap with very low surface & carcass temps.

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, janbonator said:

I am 99% sure you got it wrong - I am convinced that there is no heat degradation of the tyres of any kind. I tried to find a confirmation from David Greco's Q&A but didn't find it at a quick glance. Heat only affects the grip of the tyre, and once you lose that, the degradation will increase but not directly because of temps. It makes sense because the AI cars don't have any tyre temperature issues. 

If it worked like you wrote, I wouldn't be able to wear out my tyres on a warm-up lap with very low surface & carcass temps.

I think there is a equation about tyre wear. It is most probably linear at normal temperatures and exponential in high temperatures.

Assume it like (mileage + mileage x excessive temperature) x constant

Even you are right, if the pressure is high, you lose grip at excessive tyre temperatures , that causes more tyre wear, which is more likely in high pressured tyre.

Edited by oner7

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6 hours ago, oner7 said:

Thank you for your detailed answer. I completely agree what you said. However, I am talking about the game not the real life.

As you know, Tyre wear in game is only depended on heat degradation. Suspension settings does not have a direct effect on tyre wear.  

@David Greco CM said More tyre pressure  ->  Less tyre wear  and Less tyre Pressure -> More tyre wear  If it is only the tyre temperature that controls the tyre wear(in the game), the statement is not correct.

I am talking about the game as well as these things are simulated in them. The approach I take when making my setups take 100% of what I said in consideration.

Where did you get this from? That the game only deals with heat degradation?

This is easily debunked by using a telemetry app. Or a simple A/B test with tyre pressures.

As I said, there have been instances in the game where I had to increase tyre pressure to protect a tyre that was ultimately overheating. It worked because it was overheating from the physical abrasion against the track, not because of internal pressure.

David Greco is correct because it is not only heat degradation in the game. It is both.

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1 minute ago, marioho said:

I am talking about the game as well as these things are simulated in them. The approach I take when making my setups take 100% of what I said in consideration.

Where did you get this from? That the game only deals with heat degradation?

This is easily debunked by using a telemetry app. Or a simple A/B test with tyre pressures.

As I said, there have been instances in the game where I had to increase tyre pressure to protect a tyre that was ultimately overheating. It worked because it was overheating from the physical abrasion against the track, not because of internal pressure.

David Greco is correct because it is not only heat degradation in the game. It is both.

Thanks I will try both of the settings.

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14 minutes ago, oner7 said:

I think there is a equation about tyre wear. It is most probably linear at normal temperatures and exponential in high temperatures.

Assume it like (mileage + mileage x excessive temperature) x constant

Even you are right, if the pressure is high, you lose grip at excessive tyre temperatures , that causes more tyre wear, which is more likely in high pressured tyre.

Driving style is also a factor. Finding the correct tyre pressure balance does help. However, if you continue to push the tyres, you are increasing temperatures, and when temperatures reach 103 degrees, you lose grip quickly. If you are sensitive to setup adjustments, you’ll need to find a balance among the tyre pressures. 

If I feel I don’t have grip when driving with a setup, I adjust the tyre pressures, and normally it has been giving me good results. 

If you feel you are not having grip, then I suggest you increase the tyre pressures, as that will allow better control in spite of slightly higher temperatures. 
 

tyre pressures: Increase them for better grip in high speed at the cost of higher temperatures but better wear. Decrease them for better traction with lower temperatures, but more wear. 
 

Since I am a pad user and do 50% races on 105 difficulty, I may have my rear tyre pressures higher than the fronts depending on the track...

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1 minute ago, oner7 said:

Thanks I will try both of the settings.

Have you tried a telemetry app? It would be a pain to tweak my tyre pressures without one. Specially because even if you make a point of consistently reading your temperatures on the MFD at the same location in the track, you could still leave with the wrong impression of having, say, a FR tyre overheating when in reality it is the FL one that suffers and it just happened that you're getting the temps after a hard left hander.

The best way is to get your average tyre temp. over consecutive laps - and consistent ones at that! If you lift off throttle just a hair on a turn like T9 on Barcelona your tyres will react differently.

This and the relation between carcass and surface temps will give you insight on your setups.

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8 minutes ago, marioho said:

Have you tried a telemetry app? It would be a pain to tweak my tyre pressures without one. Specially because even if you make a point of consistently reading your temperatures on the MFD at the same location in the track, you could still leave with the wrong impression of having, say, a FR tyre overheating when in reality it is the FL one that suffers and it just happened that you're getting the temps after a hard left hander.

The best way is to get your average tyre temp. over consecutive laps - and consistent ones at that! If you lift off throttle just a hair on a turn like T9 on Barcelona your tyres will react differently.

This and the relation between carcass and surface temps will give you insight on your setups.

I started to use PXG F1 Telemetry, I will work on it with different tyre pressures. Thanks...

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Posted (edited)

I ran a load of tests at Spain not long after the game came out mainly because its my strongest track and i am really consistent lap time wise and has a mixture of corners. I ran a 15 lap stint on the softs. 25% race. Ordinarily Big Jeff asks you to pit around lap 6.

Among many tests i tried, one was using all tyres inflated to the max. Another the tyres all at the minimum.

Deflated tyres caused a lot more wear. So much so that after 15 laps the front left was 85%. However i still able to set a purple sector on 80%+ worn tyres.

Tyres inflated to the max had slightly better tyre wear but because the temps went through the roof, the lap times were about a second a lap slower.

Now admittedly i dont use any apps to record any data, and it may just be down to the way i drive, but it was just an observation of what i saw at the time.  I think i tend to lean in the direction at the moment that controlling tyre temps in game is more important. 

Edited by SIMRACER123
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@SIMRACER123 all the while taking T9 flat out? If so I'm so jealous of you you cannot believe!

An idea for a third test: settle on a tyre pressure that is good enough and run a few laps with minimum negative camber (slider to the right) and minimum toe, then a few others with maximum negative camber (slider to the left) and maximum toe.

 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, marioho said:

@SIMRACER123 all the while taking T9 flat out? If so I'm so jealous of you you cannot believe!

An idea for a third test: settle on a tyre pressure that is good enough and run a few laps with minimum negative camber (slider to the right) and minimum toe, then a few others with maximum negative camber (slider to the left) and maximum toe.

 

T9 assuming its that uphill right hander was always flat out regardless of tyre temps or wear really. 

When i was trying the sets it was with the setting all the way to the right.  I did try a couple with front camber all the way to the right and rear camber around the middle but the car didn't want to turn in as much and felt slower. Although ironically both full race times finished within 0.5 of each other so what do i know.. 😂

Rear toe though is another matter, that eats up your tyres a fair amount.

Edited by SIMRACER123

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, SIMRACER123 said:

T9 assuming its that uphill right hander was always flat out regardless of tyre temps or wear really. 

When i was trying the sets it was with the setting all the way to the right.  I did try a couple with front camber all the way to the right and rear camber around the middle but the car didn't want to turn in as much and felt slower. Although ironically both full race times finished within 0.5 of each other so what do i know.. 😂

Rear toe though is another matter, that eats up your tyres a fair amount.

Haha I was talking about taking T9 flat out, period. Turns out I neglected downforce on my aero upgrade tree - I went in heavy on drag reduction. Had a hard time trying to flat it out on My Team season 2.

On TT or any other mode it's easier.

Anyway, I envy you for having an easy flat out on it! Haha on race I straight up decided to go in with Hards just to mistreat them on that freaking corner.

Rear camber has the potential of making the car harder to turn. For that initial response you'd better off increasing front toe and (depending on the corner speed) front camber too.

Both front and rear toe will chew the rubber away and I was usually not a fan of the rear toe in, but coincidentally that was what ended up saving my Spain setup.

Edited by marioho

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I've noticed quite a few setups I've downloaded have tyre pressures at minimum - which makes sense for time trial where you don't care about wear, but I've also used these in races to good effect. Based on what @marioho mentioned about real F1 teams also wanting to start at minimum tyre pressure, what possible reason could we have for wanting to do anything else?

Is asymmetric pressure useful for heavily banked tracks (like ZandVoort)?

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11 hours ago, marioho said:

This is easily debunked by using a telemetry app.

I can confirm you are right

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Posted (edited)

@75Vette because of the things I mentioned when I talked about tyre structure and flexing coupled with my second bullet point about suspension geometry. There are tracks where you need to go heavier on suspension geometry to get the most performance out of your car, but that takes a severe toll from the tyres. By running with higher pressures you abate that toll.

This video by Chain Bear is great to help visualize what happens

But if you want to cut to the chase, just watch random bits from this video:

 

See how the tyre is constantly flexing one way or another? And see how the patch in contact with the asphalt changes accordingly to the vehicle movement – if on a straight, on a left turn or a right turn?

All this flexing and rubbing wears the tyre out by friction and the resulting heat. When you increase the tyre pressure, you make it more structurally strong and sound so it won't flex as much. 

Edit:

1 hour ago, 75Vette said:

Is asymmetric pressure useful for heavily banked tracks (like ZandVoort)?

Forgot about this bit.

Asymmetric pressures are important when a given side or a given tyre suffers more than the other(s) because of the layout of the track. Think of front left tyre in Silverstone. You may increase its inflation to minimize the flexing and rubbing it will be doing, all to try to equalize the tyre wear. 

Edited by marioho

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Nope! All versions have an upstream of telemetry data available to a specific port. All you have to do is choose your app and hook it up through your wifi network.

I play on PS4 and have telemetry apps on PC and on Android.

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3 minutes ago, marioho said:

Nope! All versions have an upstream of telemetry data available to a specific port. All you have to do is choose your app and hook it up through your wifi network.

I play on PS4 and have telemetry apps on PC and on Android.

So you connect your PS4 to your phone? With a USB cable or wirelessly?

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Wireless!

If you have a laptop lying around, I'd recommend setting it up though. At least on my old 4GB RAM phone, Android can be quite ruthless when managing memory and kill the services running unless I let it with the screen on. 

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