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Ai v ai are a step backwards

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My team race in Spain 102 ai didn't make it out of q1 p17 so started on sorts was running 18th behind Norris and the 2 Haas ham leclerc verstappen all pitted for sorts and came out in front of me and on fresh tyres in cars that least 1 sec a lap quicker they literally just sat in a train none of the early stoppers tried anything resembling a move even tho they were all in Drs of each other pretty poor I actually switched the game off after seeing that bit pointless was 19 ai that bad I don't recall them not been able or trying to overtake cars they easily faster than especially on fresh tyres

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8 minutes ago, Naxlr said:

My team race in Spain 102 ai didn't make it out of q1 p17 so started on sorts was running 18th behind Norris and the 2 Haas ham leclerc verstappen all pitted for sorts and came out in front of me and on fresh tyres in cars that least 1 sec a lap quicker they literally just sat in a train none of the early stoppers tried anything resembling a move even tho they were all in Drs of each other pretty poor I actually switched the game off after seeing that bit pointless was 19 ai that bad I don't recall them not been able or trying to overtake cars they easily faster than especially on fresh tyres

Common issue in Spain, the dirty-air train, just like in real life 🤣

(btw where're the commas & periods lol)

Edited by DRTApophis
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Grammar ain't my strong suit m8 lol yes we'll also happened in Bahrain Ricardo on fresh tyres flew past me then his teammate who was on old tyres like me he just sat behind for rest of race and I know train happen in rl but it so dull and will probably only get worse on the twisty tracks later on so luckily I got it on disk so I'll be trading it in stick to Moto GP 20 and asseto Corsa competizone

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It is hard to read without any commas or a dot.

Nevertheless I agree. Yesterday I raced in the USA and Hamilton was on a 2 stop strategy. He felt behind Alfa romeo, who were on hards. He clearly hat Problems with new softs to overtake them. Especially when there is a drs train. The AI really should try to overtake in corners and breaking zones, not only with on straights. For me as an human Player it is great devolopment with the new Dirty air and Overtake difficulty. But the AI dont try overtakes enough, so they stay behind. Even when they could drive seconds faster than the car in Front. 

Edited by DonBlanko
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I read that some recommended that the AI fights more in higher difficulty Levels. But in my expierence its still in 101 AI too less, or even less than f1 2019.

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As far as i noticed, in this year game, the overtake button is somehow op to defend and AI are very good in using it. First when started playing f1 2020 i raced a 25% races to learn new handling etc and noticed a lot of drs trains from AI. Then when i switch to 100% races the trains happens mostly on first stint, but as race go on and tyre wear start to kick in, AI in faster cars start to create a gaps from the slower ones. Then when a first stops came out, the fild mix up and when midfield car end up behind Williams or Haas for example due to slower car undercut, they find the way to jump them on track with drs unless there is another car in front to help to defend. Then it take more time to them. Its obvious that on same track, that are realy hard to overtake like Monaco or Hungry, they end up stacked behind slower car, but the same happend in real life too. 

 

Play on 100 AI dificulty. 

Edited by CardiaS
Added dificulty level

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The AI definitely struggle to overtake each other much more than on F1 2019, but strangely I find they are able to fight with the player well just not each other. I find this is also why AI doing fewer stops appear overpowered compared to those doing an extra stop as they are unable to quickly pass slower cars. Also, unlike on 2019, it seems almost impossible AI will overtake each other outside of DRS zones. If you have a wet race for this reason you’ll notice the AI trains are even worse.

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4 hours ago, DonBlanko said:

It is hard to read without any commas or a dot.

Nevertheless I agree. Yesterday I raced in the USA and Hamilton was on a 2 stop strategy. He felt behind Alfa romeo, who were on hards. He clearly hat Problems with new softs to overtake them. Especially when there is a drs train. The AI really should try to overtake in corners and breaking zones, not only with on straights. For me as an human Player it is great devolopment with the new Dirty air and Overtake difficulty. But the AI dont try overtakes enough, so they stay behind. Even when they could drive seconds faster than the car in Front. 

So out of curiosity, you're saying Hamilton didn't win or finish top 3 still?

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Don't know after watching ham, verstappen and leclerc sit in a train in much faster cars and new tyres unable to pass or even attempt a move on McLaren's and Haas I switched it off as zero enjoyment for me if it just going to be trains till pit stops yes I get it happens in real life but I don't enjoy playing ai like that and like I say it will only get worse on twisty tracks and rain etc 

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1 hour ago, Naxlr said:

Don't know after watching ham, verstappen and leclerc sit in a train in much faster cars and new tyres unable to pass or even attempt a move on McLaren's and Haas I switched it off as zero enjoyment for me if it just going to be trains till pit stops yes I get it happens in real life but I don't enjoy playing ai like that and like I say it will only get worse on twisty tracks and rain etc 

In case this isn't obvious, Spain is one of the harder tracks to overtake on in real life. Look at some of the post-race comments from last weekend if you don't believe me.

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9 hours ago, DonBlanko said:

It is hard to read without any commas or a dot.

Nevertheless I agree. Yesterday I raced in the USA and Hamilton was on a 2 stop strategy. He felt behind Alfa romeo, who were on hards. He clearly hat Problems with new softs to overtake them. Especially when there is a drs train. The AI really should try to overtake in corners and breaking zones, not only with on straights. For me as an human Player it is great devolopment with the new Dirty air and Overtake difficulty. But the AI dont try overtakes enough, so they stay behind. Even when they could drive seconds faster than the car in Front. 

Yesterday I've been trying to refine my AI settings for MyTeam, by doing 5-laps races with 110% AI in an AlphaTauri.

What I've noticed is that, the AI were very aggressive on attack me down the straight to the braking point, but seems to often stuck behind some slow car for no reason. I believe all these have something to do with:

  • The common pace differences between AI vs players & AI vs AI
  • Straight-line performance between different cars
  • the newly addition of Dirty Air mechanic in F1 2020

I think the first point is quite major, AI seems to be a lot more restrain on their braking compare to players who are usually a lot more daring on taking it much deeper, while during the exit of the corners, AI are a lot more consistent on getting their power down and are usually faster than us.

What this difference in pace actually does is that, after each corner that leads to a long-straight (especially with DRS), there's always a gap between us and the AI from behind, this gap allows a breathing room for the AI to create that significant speed difference by the time they caught up to us and make their move, making it feels as if they're very aggressive and difficult to defend.

But then there's this situation with AI vs AI, where in contrast from the situation above, they have nearly identical behavior so things basically all come down to who has the best straight-line performance. I've seen an Alfa with damaged front-wing, despite the pace is significantly slower, is able to block a whole pack of midfield cars in Hanoi for a whole lap until going to the pit.

When AI are too close behind another car (basically bumper to bumper), they'll have trouble to attempt any overtaking maneuver especially if the car in front has decent top speed to fend it off, they aren't courageous enough to do anything down the braking either. If they couldn't get side-by-side at the braking zone, there's simply no chance for them.

All these and their lack of flexibility on adjusting racing lines contributes to create the train we saw, and dirty-air made it even worse.

Edited by DRTApophis
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On mobile right now but I tend to agree that it needs a rebalance.

The AI against the player is top notch, no complaints. I've had so many thrilling battles against the AI, with daring moves both on the inside and outside in all manner of tracks and corners.

Though I've seen great passes AI v AI too, it doesn't feel the same or as often. It's like the AI had more of a pasteurized racing for some reason.

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49 minutes ago, marioho said:

On mobile right now but I tend to agree that it needs a rebalance.

The AI against the player is top notch, no complaints. I've had so many thrilling battles against the AI, with daring moves both on the inside and outside in all manner of tracks and corners.

Though I've seen great passes AI v AI too, it doesn't feel the same or as often. It's like the AI had more of a pasteurized racing for some reason.

I still remember Gasly pulling a move down on Turn 10 of Bahrain. I was only a bit more than a car width wide on the first apex and he cut straight into that spot and went side-by-side with me to the exit, the move was so smoothly executed that my jaw is still on the floor just by thinking about it.

Edited by DRTApophis
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Sometimes I think adding certain features actually hurts a game. I mean the 19 ai although completely on rails in terms of aggressive passing on the player and each other were far superior especially on each other to 20 .And really the dirty air is not doing anything positive for real-life f1 as Spain proved so personally I wish they had just left it out as it has made the racing worse than previous additions. Should of focused on making ai more dynamic ie different traits some more mistake prone etc or added red flags things that would of improved the racing not took it a step or two backwards.

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18 minutes ago, Naxlr said:

And really the dirty air is not doing anything positive for real-life f1 as Spain proved so

I sympathize with the sentiment but I can't agree with this. Dirty air is part of life in F1 and I'm much more interested in a game that has an internal model simulating it all the time than on one that either goes the arcade route or that tries to replicate the effect with slapped on caps or whatever.

The perceived drawback of having this feature in the game creating the AI train is (1) unfunded and (2) fixable.

We're speculating on it being a cause but that's just it, speculation. Even I agree that it does indeed play a role on the AI forming up trains, but we can't say there's something fundamentally broken about it.

Which leads to my second point, being fixable. The AI is daring and capable when dealing with the player. As far as I know, everything that is simulated on the player's side is also simulated on the AI, which anyone can see with a telemetry app. With few exceptions, the game is calculating and simulating everything that every AI car does - if you shove the AI so that their inside rear wheel gets on the kerb when turning, their car will spin as consequence of the sudden loss of grip instead of keeping to a "predetermined" path. So I see no reason to believe that adjustments can be made to the AI behavior in order to make it just as daring when against another AI car.

That's something for @David Greco CM to tackle on I think, but I'm optimistic about the future and I wouldn't go back to F1 2019 in any aspect of the game. AI included.

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1 hour ago, marioho said:

I sympathize with the sentiment but I can't agree with this. Dirty air is part of life in F1 and I'm much more interested in a game that has an internal model simulating it all the time than on one that either goes the arcade route or that tries to replicate the effect with slapped on caps or whatever.

The perceived drawback of having this feature in the game creating the AI train is (1) unfunded and (2) fixable.

We're speculating on it being a cause but that's just it, speculation. Even I agree that it does indeed play a role on the AI forming up trains, but we can't say there's something fundamentally broken about it.

Which leads to my second point, being fixable. The AI is daring and capable when dealing with the player. As far as I know, everything that is simulated on the player's side is also simulated on the AI, which anyone can see with a telemetry app. With few exceptions, the game is calculating and simulating everything that every AI car does - if you shove the AI so that their inside rear wheel gets on the kerb when turning, their car will spin as consequence of the sudden loss of grip instead of keeping to a "predetermined" path. So I see no reason to believe that adjustments can be made to the AI behavior in order to make it just as daring when against another AI car.

That's something for @David Greco CM to tackle on I think, but I'm optimistic about the future and I wouldn't go back to F1 2019 in any aspect of the game. AI included.

I really don't think it needs as much of an adjustment as it being stated. The AI does pass each other. And when the fastest cars come out of the pits behind slower cars, the faster cars still get ahead. 

Reading this thread you'd think Renault were winning all the GP's. 

There's some attention to be paid into the mid pack IMO, in terms of the closer cars getting past each other, but it's not even remotely as bad as is being painted. When it comes to these games, demands are made that are far beyond what competitors are doing, I understand why, but it does come across hyperbolic and I struggle to take much of it seriously. 

A lot of the struggles in overtakes in these games are true to life, and I don't have any more complaints about that as I would about real life F1. 

I'd love someone to name a top tier racing game in which the AI behaves as is demanded here, it does not exist, and I'm happy to say I've played them all and thoroughly love this genre. 

F1 2020 is probably the best I've played now I've gotta more into it than 2019. If they want constant AI passes, Nascar Heat can be an absolute blast to play, have at it. 

 

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Yep dirty air is indeed a part of f1 and most would agree it a very bad thing as for me at least I don't enjoy racing cars who even tho faster can't get close. and for me personally to have that in the game whilst yes it's realistic but games are supposed to be fun and well  watching ai trains is not that for me and personally I would prefer the 19 ai as they would actually overtake each other in to breaking zones etc and back to 19 for hockenheim personally but I understand you like others enjoy the realism it adds each to there own m8.

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Never said I wanted constint ai overtakes but just Mercedes on fresh tyres should not be 8 laps sat behind a McLaren on old tyres and not even attempt a pass even down Spain back straight now that would not happen in real life and I'd say wouldn't of happened in 19 either . But you are correct most if not all serious racing games kinda suffer with this even Sims like ACC have pretty poor ai I agree with you .Moto GP 20 is fun constant overtaking ,ai crashes but obviously different sport completely but in terms of ai v ai they are weaker than 19 which is a shame but I guess they added another real life feature so maybe a patch could just rebalance things as stated .

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1 hour ago, Naxlr said:

Never said I wanted constint ai overtakes but just Mercedes on fresh tyres should not be 8 laps sat behind a McLaren on old tyres and not even attempt a pass even down Spain back straight now that would not happen in real life and I'd say wouldn't of happened in 19 either . But you are correct most if not all serious racing games kinda suffer with this even Sims like ACC have pretty poor ai I agree with you .Moto GP 20 is fun constant overtaking ,ai crashes but obviously different sport completely but in terms of ai v ai they are weaker than 19 which is a shame but I guess they added another real life feature so maybe a patch could just rebalance things as stated .

Imo we're already on the right path, our AI just needs some minor tweaking and be a little smarter on adapting different scenarios. I don't think there're any sim/simcade racers out there atm with AI competitive yet fair enough to actually race with the players properly like what we have here. 

Edited by DRTApophis
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Goddammit a train of comments I all agree with.

@KNT2011 yes there are reports dripping with hyperbolic frustration and that must be account for. In my opinion F1 2020 has better AI in every aspect. What we have here is a case of balancing, and a small one.

Indeed we don't see Renault winning GPs left and right. I think as long as we're playing 25% races at minimum the time smooths things up. And every race when we look at the results screen you see movement all around - which is not to say that there were overtakes all around as they don't necessarily come together, but a good indicator of a healthy state of things nevertheless.

It's just that, even when no passing or even serious passing attempt takes place, most of the time you see the AI closing down on your rearview mirror and you leave a tiny gap you'll see the AI sniffing it out. This is on par with real life. Even when no overtaking is even attempted, you see trailing cars sticking their noses here and there, sniffing a potential gap, whenever the leading driver let one wide.

Now there may be a significant amount of confirmation bias here, but I think we don't see it as often on the AI train. They seem to form up a convoy with well behaved and well aligned cars. That's what is odd about it and why I think is a case for a minor adjustment in the AI behavior. 

The systems and mechanics in the game are stellar. The AI behavior against the player is stellar. It's just that the AI seems to wash out a bit when it's facing another AI car. Not necessarily a lack of overtaking, just that lack of interest on their part. It is as if they've lost their racing instinct to even nudge here and there behind the AI in front.

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Yes that is my point in 19 they had that racing instinct as you said even places like Hungary they would try round outside of last corner and in to the chicane but in 20 they just don't seem to try it at all .It on a Drs zone or nothing it seems. I agree the ai v player is a step up from 19 but a step back against each other which in turn causes ai train so hopefully they can just get the ai to be the same v each other as against the player.

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Verstappen pitted with 4 laps to go for soft tyres and a nose cone. Came out 2 seconds behind a very slow Williams on old hards in Spain. Did not make it past despite setting fast lap.

Not sure what happened because I did not watch the replay of the race, but it seems a little strange.

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Yes seen similar on other track's faster car's on faster/fresher tyres just can't get past car's they should be easily getting past within a lap . Which like stated causes the ai train shame but needs looking at as just makes the racing between ai v ai really dull.

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