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What you want to see from GRID

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Loore said:
New news? Check back in a few weeks :)  In the mean time you may remember I put out the invite on the old forums to come visit the studio, see what we're working on. That offer still stands, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. 

I was offered a chance to go to the last event but sadly the 10 days notice of the event date made it a non-starter. Hopefully a bit more thought will be taken in this regard in any future events like it.

Whilst these visits are a cool idea and I'd be up for going (given sufficient notice), I gotta agree with Cap Gooner Flowa and co regarding Beta testing.

I'm involved in Assetto Corsa Early Access testing, the Warframe closed and open Beta's paying over £200 for ingame purchases like Being a "Founder" member, giving me a say in future game direction and Prime Access. 

Hell I was even involved in CM's own F1 Online the game closed and open beta's sinking almost £150 into that before you did a Grid 1 and shut it down as essentially "non-viable". Imagine my surprise when a variant launched for sale on iOS.......

Things like that and killing grid 1 online at no notice, wiping out the forums TWICE and dumping all the tips your core fans had given to others are why your core fans turned their backs in droves.

Point we're all trying to make here is these "visit CMHQ events" are all well and good but, only local (UK realistically) people can afford the time/expense to travel there and certainly not at the drop of a hat, throw in an N.D.A. (which I understand the need for) stopping attendees from discussing it does nothing for publicity.

To bring us old fanboys back the only realistic and effective thing you CAN do is get us involved, create dedicated test servers, select a differing group of gamers, using all the different control methods to test the game (NDA included), let US tell you what's right or wrong before release. that way you get results like Warframe, 

As I write Steam chart tells me there are 10,000+ in-game in Warframe, Assetto Corsa without career and multiplayer, just single race and time trials has 194 playing, Grid 2 has 224. Nuff said there

The best bit about beta testing is those that take part can say "I helped build that" and BTW Warframe sits @ no 12 in the steam charts Grid 2 @ 240 and Assetto @ 266.

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So shall we add some kind of early access/ beta to the the list? 

Cap when you talk about half the content missing I'm not sure what you are reffering too. Is it a DLC thing or are we talking disciplines, tracks, cars etc? A list of what you do want would be handy.

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Many of you refer to tests etc as if they haven't happened...they have. Nobody can talk about it though as they are under NDA. As I said, let's wait until we announce a game first shall we :)

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So shall we add some kind of early access/ beta to the the list?
Most definately
Let us help you put the grid game back where it once was as the best crossover racing sim there was available.
Dont design it in isolation then throw it over the wall to us and tell us this is how we want it.
ok that might be a bit glib, but ya know what im saying.

Also [and im sure you wouldnt but as im in spilling mode] dont just take those that are vocal on forums word for this stuff...Im sure we all know folk who never forum, only chat in game or do voip.
Some of these im sure would have plenny of wise thoughts and words for you re game design.

Those that dont 'forum'...'game'...a closed beta release with a nice easy-peasy mechanism for 'bug reporting' or 'feature requesting' would reach those who cant normally make direct contact with you.

and a closed then open beta would be the ideal time for that wouldnt it?


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Goonertez said:

So shall we add some kind of early access/ beta to the the list?
Most definately
Let us help you put the grid game back where it once was as the best crossover racing sim there was available.
Dont design it in isolation then throw it over the wall to us and tell us this is how we want it.
ok that might be a bit glib, but ya know what im saying.

Also [and im sure you wouldnt but as im in spilling mode] dont just take those that are vocal on forums word for this stuff...Im sure we all know folk who never forum, only chat in game or do voip.
Some of these im sure would have plenny of wise thoughts and words for you re game design.

Those that dont 'forum'...'game'...a closed beta release with a nice easy-peasy mechanism for 'bug reporting' or 'feature requesting' would reach those who cant normally make direct contact with you.

and a closed then open beta would be the ideal time for that wouldnt it?

That's what we did, we've had people in from all over the place, some are forum dwellers, others not. The only thing in common they've got is that they've played a hell of a lot of Codemasters games and have very strong opinions on what we've done well, and what we've done wrong over the years.

As mentioned above, Community has already been involved in a number of things, and as time moves on that will only grow.

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Goonertez said:

So shall we add some kind of early access/ beta to the the list?
Most definately
Let us help you put the grid game back where it once was as the best crossover racing sim there was available.
Dont design it in isolation then throw it over the wall to us and tell us this is how we want it.
ok that might be a bit glib, but ya know what im saying.

Also [and im sure you wouldnt but as im in spilling mode] dont just take those that are vocal on forums word for this stuff...Im sure we all know folk who never forum, only chat in game or do voip.
Some of these im sure would have plenny of wise thoughts and words for you re game design.

Those that dont 'forum'...'game'...a closed beta release with a nice easy-peasy mechanism for 'bug reporting' or 'feature requesting' would reach those who cant normally make direct contact with you.

and a closed then open beta would be the ideal time for that wouldnt it?


Cool thanks @Goonertez we'll add it to the wishlist, just keep in mind it is a community wishlist though and not a list of promises :) 

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pre-alpha
alpha
closed beta
open beta
Release
And let every step take its time! You can't go from pre-alpha to full release and hoping some silly fixes during the first two months after release will do it.
The fact that CM was spot on for grid goes way back with the toca-series, which then was lost in a stooopid "hunt-for-quick-cash" starting with Dirt3, Showdown and finally the notatallsuccesful G2. (Eijits) :)
Go to gamba and look at the Sim-competitors, I do think a future game should be towards sims but without the 1 zillion ways to setup a car. In G1-Touring cars there were 2 cars to choose from, without setup possibilites (OK different cars with different performances could be obtained through Ebay), a good race-feeling and that was good enough for me and several others.

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pre-alpha
alpha
closed beta
open beta
Release
And let every step take its time! You can't go from pre-alpha to full release and hoping some silly fixes during the first two months after release will do it.
The fact that CM was spot on for grid goes way back with the toca-series, which then was lost in a stooopid "hunt-for-quick-cash" starting with Dirt3, Showdown and finally the notatallsuccesful G2. (Eijits) :)
Go to gamba and look at the Sim-competitors, I do think a future game should be towards sims but without the 1 zillion ways to setup a car. In G1-Touring cars there were 2 cars to choose from, without setup possibilites (OK different cars with different performances could be obtained through Ebay), a good race-feeling and that was good enough for me and several others.

So am I right in thinking you want lots of set-up options?

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pre-alpha
alpha
closed beta
open beta
Release
And let every step take its time! You can't go from pre-alpha to full release and hoping some silly fixes during the first two months after release will do it.
The fact that CM was spot on for grid goes way back with the toca-series, which then was lost in a stooopid "hunt-for-quick-cash" starting with Dirt3, Showdown and finally the notatallsuccesful G2. (Eijits) :)
Go to gamba and look at the Sim-competitors, I do think a future game should be towards sims but without the 1 zillion ways to setup a car. In G1-Touring cars there were 2 cars to choose from, without setup possibilites (OK different cars with different performances could be obtained through Ebay), a good race-feeling and that was good enough for me and several others.

So am I right in thinking you want lots of set-up options?
 ? NO no no setup options. Equal racing online.

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Loggy said:
pre-alpha
alpha
closed beta
open beta
Release
And let every step take its time! You can't go from pre-alpha to full release and hoping some silly fixes during the first two months after release will do it.
The fact that CM was spot on for grid goes way back with the toca-series, which then was lost in a stooopid "hunt-for-quick-cash" starting with Dirt3, Showdown and finally the notatallsuccesful G2. (Eijits) :)
Go to gamba and look at the Sim-competitors, I do think a future game should be towards sims but without the 1 zillion ways to setup a car. In G1-Touring cars there were 2 cars to choose from, without setup possibilites (OK different cars with different performances could be obtained through Ebay), a good race-feeling and that was good enough for me and several others.

So am I right in thinking you want lots of set-up options?
 ? NO no no setup options. Equal racing online.
Right OK sorry got ya, do you not think some people might want to be able to tweak the handling to suit their racing style would be a good thing though? 

What do the rest of you think about being able to set up your car?

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No setups please. Keep the game as simple as possible. Just like you did with Grid 1. Give all players, no matter on what level they are, same conditions. And setup screen makes waiting for a race longer ;)

I don't agree with McRoss on sim aspect. Future Codemasters games should be arcade games just like they have been so far. GRID2 and DIRT3 are games with good handling but have few game-breaking bugs (I don't class Grid 2 cornering bug as a handling thing).

Equal cars is crucial. Assuming there are different dev teams working on different games, Grid guys should learn from Dirt 2/3 team in terms of balancing the cars. This was one of the good things of last 2 DIRT games. Every class - rally/rallyX/grB had mostly equal cars. The differences were very little. So online, every race, we had a variety of cars competing. 

Regarding gamers coming to your HQ and playing a LOT. It will never be comparable with published beta version. The cornering BUG in Grid 2 was never discovered and/or enough explored because there were not enough tests. It came on the surface after 2 days of online  when thousands of happy (then) customers played the game for hours. Some gameplay breaking bugs can be found only this way. 

If you really want community to be involved add beta tests to the list.

And regarding text chat, Dirt 2/3 text chat was not user friendly, way too big fonts. Grid 1 style text chat was spot on.

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pre-alpha
alpha
closed beta
open beta
Release
And let every step take its time! You can't go from pre-alpha to full release and hoping some silly fixes during the first two months after release will do it.
The fact that CM was spot on for grid goes way back with the toca-series, which then was lost in a stooopid "hunt-for-quick-cash" starting with Dirt3, Showdown and finally the notatallsuccesful G2. (Eijits) :)
Go to gamba and look at the Sim-competitors, I do think a future game should be towards sims but without the 1 zillion ways to setup a car. In G1-Touring cars there were 2 cars to choose from, without setup possibilites (OK different cars with different performances could be obtained through Ebay), a good race-feeling and that was good enough for me and several others.

So am I right in thinking you want lots of set-up options?
No, no setup options at all really is what I am after. :) 
Sry if i wrote so I could be misunderstood.

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There are those that do like to tinker with their cars so to speak so what about giving a host in multiplayer global control over everything, as in he/she decides what options people can use? 

Best of both world's no? 

Those that want to race with zero differences can do so, those that want to setup their car can also go for it.

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In G1 we had the option to go "with assist" or "without assist" ...and for a **** of a lot of us those choices were good enough.
Don't snare yourself into an options trap, where you in the end will have a consequent list of 30 questions you need to go yes or no on.

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If you mean setup like Dirt 2 or 3 then it's pointless IMO. After few days most ppl know how to set those 5 sliders up and there are no setup nuances visible during racing. And the rest who dont know how to set the car are being left with no chance for win anyway so less ppl to take part in action on track. Setup screen also takes additional time and makes waiting for races longer.

If you think about more complex simmy setup like F1 games then please dont go this way. There are/will enough sim/simcade games on the market with emphasis on setups. It will divide community even more. 

Same goes with car upgrades and such. 

What was perfect in Grid 1 was that plug and race aspect. Start the game, choose the series and race.

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Loore said:
There are those that do like to tinker with their cars so to speak so what about giving a host in multiplayer global control over everything, as in he/she decides what options people can use? 

Best of both world's no? 

Those that want to race with zero differences can do so, those that want to setup their car can also go for it.
Loore...seems like a good idea...give us the choice to choose setups or no.
While on the point of choice, it would be nice if we could also choose the cars to use...not the TIER...the car or cars.
or if not indiviual cars, then the dicipline of cars...like touring or GT1...as long as the disciplines are sorted accordingly. like they were in G1.

It might be worth pointing out that the community i was part of in G1 days had a kind of 'code'
It was like 'cannon'...Grid-cannon.

When ebay cars [and hence the xml hack] were still in the game, this cannon dictated that we had to prove our 'equal footing' with a screenshot or video, showing the car we used, had less than 500 miles on the odometer.
Less than 500 miles meant it absolutely HAD to be a stock car...stock as in bog-standard. All ebay cars had over 500 miles on them...so equality was 99% assured.

The result of this equal footing means to us that the race we are about to have, has a higher potential to be a dam good race than otherwise wold be the case.
Most of us want 5 laps of racing [or 5 -10 mins], nose to tail all the way...thats the target.
The other end of the scale is the guy in first is 3 seconds ahead of the guy in second, who is 4 seconds ahead of the guy in third and so on. we dont want that race after race after race.

compare real life F1 to Real life BTCC [or whatever its called these days]
we want the BTCC style!
we had it in G1
we lost it in G2

im gonna shush now coz im bordering on rambling 8P

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No setups please. Keep the game as simple as possible. Just like you did with Grid 1. Give all players, no matter on what level they are, same conditions. And setup screen makes waiting for a race longer ;)

I don't agree with McRoss on sim aspect. Future Codemasters games should be arcade games just like they have been so far. GRID2 and DIRT3 are games with good handling but have few game-breaking bugs (I don't class Grid 2 cornering bug as a handling thing).

Equal cars is crucial. Assuming there are different dev teams working on different games, Grid guys should learn from Dirt 2/3 team in terms of balancing the cars. This was one of the good things of last 2 DIRT games. Every class - rally/rallyX/grB had mostly equal cars. The differences were very little. So online, every race, we had a variety of cars competing. 


I'd personally go with no setups too, and just mix it up a bit with cars of different strengths and weaknesses (but still in the same class).  I don't agree about grid 2 handling though.  This must NOT be carried over to the next version.  It needs a handling model that rewards drivers having to take a proper racing line through corners etc.  Not only does this feel much more rewarding, but also promotes better driving, bumper to bumper close racing, and less crash bang  wallop for online.  Leave drifting for drifting events, not racing

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GRID2 and DIRT3 are games with good handling but have few game-breaking bugs (I don't class Grid 2 cornering bug as a handling thing).


I'd personally go with no setups too, and just mix it up a bit with cars of different strengths and weaknesses (but still in the same class).  I don't agree about grid 2 handling though.  This must NOT be carried over to the next version.  It needs a handling model that rewards drivers having to take a proper racing line through corners etc.  Not only does this feel much more rewarding, but also promotes better driving, bumper to bumper close racing, and less crash bang  wallop for online.  Leave drifting for drifting events, not racing

In G2 handling itself as a reaction for steering moves is fine IMO. Just cars shud not take corners with drifting faster than with taking normal racing line. That's why i pointed out that cornering BUG which made cars drift thru corners was not part of handling system. 

In Dirt 3 on tarmac cornering worked fine. When car was losing grip and was beginning to slide it was losing speed, and it was quicker to search for grip and take normal racing line. 

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'If' that was a bug then it was a massive game changer.  I tend to think it was as intended though.  Either way we both agree we don't want it in Grid 3. 

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I had high hopes for Grid 2 as the build up to the release mentioned a high frequency physics and handling model, Finite Element like car damage model, real life tracks and locations and overall a game with a bit of authenticity.

I have to say I was disappointed with how the released game turned out. 

#1 flaw was the handling model and I've seen it mentioned here a number of times. Taking a hairpin in an uncontrolled drift should never be quicker than taking a clean racing line... Sometimes it even looked as if the car was given a boost when taking corners in this strange way :(

On top of this the cars would just snap into oversteer with very little warning or feedback - it felt hugely inconsistent.

Therefore, my biggest hope for the next 'Grid' game is that the handling is completely reworked. I'm sure it's possible to strike a good balance between playability and realism. The cars should be involving, but in a way which encourages taking realistic racing lines and requires a bit of skill (not rewarding artificial feeling slides).

If this requires a return of driving aids then so be it. Saying 'people are more clever than you think' apply to many areas. Challenges and learning are a must in games - without it playing games feels like a waste of time...
(If you want to make an addictive game just make as annoying as Flappy Bird - joking!)

Normally I would've had many more comments/suggestions, but I don't in case of Grid 2... I've not finished the game (40% completion maybe?), because I was getting angry at the way the cars felt and that realistic driving approach was of no use.

I'm sure Codies noticed the feedback present at this and old forum and know that something did not quite go to plan. It now seems, based on hints, that the Grid series may head towards its roots and take inspiration from TOCA series.

I've still got Grid 2 disc, but I'm not feeling tempted to go back to it. I really hope that I won't put away the next game after couple of hours.

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Ok, to make it clear, we want text chat in the next iteration of Grid, Toca, or whatever else it might be called this time.

thanks ;)
Consider it on the list and it will be the first thing @Loore talks to the team about again in the morning :)
And that is all he needed to say in the first place instead of allowing his vernacular to lead to misunderstandings . .

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There has to be no setups in a Grid game . . .put in setups and it's no longer a Grid game.

Also, we are always hearing of time and space so that would be better used elsewhere, plus, we already have games with setups.

Grid 2 is still on my computer, it has never left, I still get a buzz when I can just jump in and drive, I still get a buzz playing a CM racing game, that has never gone since the very early days of CM racing . . Toca 3 is as fresh as the day I first played it, 2005 for all its rough edges is great fun to play . . . the fans, just as much (probably more) as the management, don't want to see the end of CM racing.

What really annoys us is this impression we have that CM have been acting like lemmings over the past few years as if they have this death wish to destroy their own company . .it's bloody frustrating.

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Loore said:
There are those that do like to tinker with their cars so to speak so what about giving a host in multiplayer global control over everything, as in he/she decides what options people can use? 

Best of both world's no? 

Those that want to race with zero differences can do so, those that want to setup their car can also go for it.
I'd say no . . .the essence of Grid is DON'T give time wasting options.

Think back to all the nonsense created with ebay cars, give setups and we would be in the same ballpark.

Suggestions should have merit points based on the original Grid 1. By that I mean something like "don't bog us down with endless interfaces before we get to the track" would take precedence over "host allowing car setups", even just, "car setups" . . which would then lead to setups moving down the list or even dropping off the end depending on popularity or space.

When you make a movie you start with a storyboard, when you start a racing game start with a features merit board.

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What is a sense of such topics if you don't listen to your fans??? There were hundreds suggestions before GRID2. Did you rely on them?

When Bugbear team was asked to put cam higher - they put it higher. When I asked you to put chase cam higher and make dizzy camera effects optional... Nothing happened.

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What is a sense of such topics if you don't listen to your fans??? There were hundreds suggestions before GRID2. Did you rely on them?

When Bugbear team was asked to put cam higher - they put it higher. When I asked you to put chase cam higher and make dizzy camera effects optional... Nothing happened.

Actually, that point needs to go on the list . .the boot cam in Grid 2 was too low . .

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