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Change how ERS works in F1 2021


oni0nbarje

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In F1 2020, a major change was made to how ERS works in the race. It seems to have gone down well, but personally I don’t like it as it’s still unrealistic. Thanks to Mercedes F1 youtube channel, they’ve basically explained how ERS works.

So how should it be implemented (this will probably have to be done in f1 2021)

There should be 5 ERS modes

Save

Neutral

Attack

Overtake button

Hotlap (for quali)

Currently in F1 2020, it seems like when you’re in an ERS mode, it deploys at the same rate, regardless of whether you’re on a straight or in a slow twisty section.  This may be why at some tracks you run out of ERS in Hotlap mode.

This needs to change so that ERS is deployed more in fast sections and less in slower sections. There would probably need to be predefined maps, but it would be great if you allowed the player to change the intensity of ERS deployment in each part of the track

Secondly three race modes should be added, Save, Neutral and Attack. In Neutral mode, you deploy and regenerate the approximately the same energy per lap. So if you start a lap at 50% battery, you should end the lap on around 50% battery.

In attack mode you’ll deploy more energy then you regenerate and save mode is the opposite of this.

And finally the overtake button would be the same as this year, deploying the full 160kw  120kw from the mgu-k. I do think using the overtake button needs to heavily wear the mgu-k and overheat the engine to prevent it from being abused.

This is probably too much of a change for F1 2020, but with fuel modes most likely not being a thing in F1 2021, this change would be great for the new game.

Thanks to Mercedes for explaining this https://youtu.be/fzqeQZaBcaU

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1 hour ago, onionbarje23 said:

Currently in F1 2020, it seems like when you’re in an ERS mode, it deploys at the same rate, regardless of whether you’re on a straight or in a slow twisty section.

Are you sure? I don't think it's supposed to and I didn't think it did? You're talking about the medium setting not Overtake I assume?

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1 minute ago, Ultra3142 said:

Are you sure? I don't think it's supposed to and I didn't think it did? You're talking about the medium setting not Overtake I assume?

Yes I mean when you're in medium or hotlap mode, not in overtake. I may be wrong, but that's what it feels like, be interesting to hear what Codies have to say on this

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8 minutes ago, onionbarje23 said:

Yes I mean when you're in medium or hotlap mode, not in overtake. I may be wrong, but that's what it feels like, be interesting to hear what Codies have to say on this

What should happen is like in real F1 where I think a particular pre-planned deployment pattern happens around the lap, not constant use. I'd be surprised if this isn't actually what's happening. I'd have a closer look at this the next time you drive I think. I'll try to remember to the next time I drive outside Time Trial too.

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6 minutes ago, Davidj7077 said:

David Greco mentioned here that the modes "medium" and "hotlap" are balanced per speed and gear. "Overtake" is a non balanced mode.

Ahh ok that explains why at a fast track like belgium you run out of ers deployment after the last chicane in hotlap mode.

I get why it's balanced via speed or gear but i still think it should be linked more to the section of the track. For example the straight just after pouhon (between turn 12 and 13), you should be able to reduce ers deployment at that section, so you can deploy ers at the end of the lap, in hotlap mode.

 

Anyways the main point of this post, was to try and change how the race modes work, as according to Mercedes it's a bit off at the moment

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Going to a save, neutral, attackmode. Will only bring back the problems we had with the game in the last few years. Players will end up going into safe mode in the corners and use attack mode or overtake on the straights. It would go back to being very unrealistic and micromanaging again.

 

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3 hours ago, onionbarje23 said:

Ahh ok that explains why at a fast track like belgium you run out of ers deployment after the last chicane in hotlap mode.

I don't think you should run out in hotlap mode if you're just doing a single lap starting from full charge. Are you switching to None (or whatever it's called) for your out lap? I'm thinking qualifying here.

Edit: and I'm not sure your video really says anything about ERS as it's just about engine modes, isn't it? (I saw it a while ago but haven't watched it again now.)

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The following Mercedes video from just after the Belgian GP does have one interesting little bit relating to ERS, as it turns out the loss of power Lewis Hamilton reported on the radio simply related to having reach his ERS deployment limit for the lap (video will jump to right part):

 

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1 hour ago, Ultra3142 said:

I don't think you should run out in hotlap mode if you're just doing a single lap starting from full charge. Are you switching to None (or whatever it's called) for your out lap? I'm thinking qualifying here.

Edit: and I'm not sure your video really says anything about ERS as it's just about engine modes, isn't it? (I saw it a while ago but haven't watched it again now.)

I'm pretty sure I have ran out of ers at either Spa or Spain, but i could be wrong. That's not the main point of this post, its about the race modes.

The video i linked which is quite new, does talk about engine modes. Here he explains how engine modes are split into the ICE and ERS 

Then later on he explains the 3 typical settings used in the race, neutral, attack and save. From around 0:53 until 1:40

 

2 hours ago, Dunky1980 said:

Going to a save, neutral, attackmode. Will only bring back the problems we had with the game in the last few years. Players will end up going into safe mode in the corners and use attack mode or overtake on the straights. It would go back to being very unrealistic and micromanaging again.

 

I think you're misunderstanding, how these modes will work. All modes will use pretty much no ers during the slow corners. But the higher mode you're in, the more ers you'll use on the straight/faster corners (as the mercedes guy says in the video above). These modes would be mapped to efficiently use ers in faster sections and not in slower sections. If implemented correctly, it won't be like f1 2019, where you have to manually set the ers setting to low in a slow corner.

Maybe I've explained it badly, but i think the video I've linked does a good job at explaining the race modes they use

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@onionbarje23 apologies I was confusing your video with an older one. I can see where you're coming from now. For context if you aren't aware, the reason for the change to the ERS implementation in game was comments from the like of Lando Norris (I think) about how unrealistic it was way top F1 2019 players were making so many changes per lap. I wonder also if this is an area where different teams have different implementations, where say McLaren's might be closer to the game's whilst Mercedes' is as described in your video? I don't know.

For myself I'm very pleased it's been simplified. The old system actually put me off buying F1 2019 and the change was a factor in me deciding to buy F1 2020.

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4 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

@onionbarje23 apologies I was confusing your video with an older one. I can see where you're coming from now. For context if you aren't aware, the reason for the change to the ERS implementation in game was comments from the like of Lando Norris (I think) about how unrealistic it was way top F1 2019 players were making so many changes per lap. I wonder also if this is an area where different teams have different implementations, where say McLaren's might be closer to the game's whilst Mercedes' is as described in your video? I don't know.

For myself I'm very pleased it's been simplified. The old system actually put me off buying F1 2019 and the change was a factor in me deciding to buy F1 2020.

No worries. Yeah, if i remember correctly Lando said ERS is pretty much automatic or something like that. I don't think he meant that there's only a overtake button and one mode, I think he meant that you shouldn't have to be setting ERS to none at every corner.

I highly doubt that Mercedes are the only team to have a mode to save ers so they can attack later, or have a mode to use a bit more ers to attack another driver. It would be a bit silly in real life, if a team can't turn down there energy usage and they're stuck to one mode, but I could be wrong. 

I do think Codies have over-simplified ERS a bit and it's unrealistic to be using the overtake button as regularly as you have to now. In real life it seems like you use overtake mode sparingly as its risky on the PU to use it, you always hear engineers telling drivers if overtake is available or not.

But maybe Codies intentionally over-simplified it. But I do think with fuel modes no longer being a thing (assuming the rules stay the same), ERS could do with a change

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20 minutes ago, onionbarje23 said:

I do think Codies have over-simplified ERS a bit and it's unrealistic to be using the overtake button as regularly as you have to now. In real life it seems like you use overtake mode sparingly as its risky on the PU to use it, you always hear engineers telling drivers if overtake is available or not.

Going by your video I think you may be mixing up a 'party mode' that stresses the ICE with an 'attack' ERS mode to use the Mercedes terminology?

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13 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

Going by your video I think you may be mixing up a 'party mode' that stresses the ICE with an 'attack' ERS mode to use the Mercedes terminology?

I'm kinda assuming that there's an overtake button that deploys the full 160kw and would drain the battery, even though they didn't mention it in this video. This is different from the attack mode and will deploy the 160kw whenever you press it. And doing this would stress the MGU-k and maybe the ICE as you're giving it more power (not sure about this one, I'm not an engineer).

But I think the overtake button needs to be more punishing on the car, so people aren't over using it.

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1 minute ago, onionbarje23 said:

I'm kinda assuming that there's an overtake button that deploys the full 160kw and would drain the battery, even though they didn't mention it in this video. This is different from the attack mode and will deploy the 160kw whenever you press it. And doing this would stress the MGU-k and maybe the ICE as you're giving it more power (not sure about this one, I'm not an engineer).

But I think the overtake button needs to be more punishing on the car, so people aren't over using it.

The Mercedes attack mode mentioned in the ERS bit sounded exactly like the game Overtake mode to me.

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18 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

The Mercedes attack mode mentioned in the ERS bit sounded exactly like the game Overtake mode to me.

I do think the overtake button, which deploys the max amount of energy legally possible (160kw) and drains the battery instantly very quickly, is different from the attack race mode, which deploys a bit more energy in the straights and over a couple laps will drain the battery. The video suggests that attack mode just deploys a bit more energy on the straights, it doesn't always deploy the full 160kw.

Edit: deploying 160kw drains the battery very quickly not instantly 

 

6 hours ago, Davidj7077 said:

David Greco mentioned here that the modes "medium" and "hotlap" are balanced per speed and gear. "Overtake" is a non balanced mode.

David Greco has mentioned how overtake is a non balanced mode so deploys the full 160kw whenever you press it, whereas the attack mode would be a balanced mode (so would deploy more energy on the straights and not in the corners)

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Just now, onionbarje23 said:

I do think the overtake button, which deploys the max amount of energy legally possible (160kw) and drains the battery instantly, is different from the attack race mode

No mode drains the battery instantly :classic_smile:. I still think attack mode sounds the same as overtake, which doesn't cause a constant discharge rate either. 

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1 minute ago, Ultra3142 said:

No mode drains the battery instantly :classic_smile:. I still think attack mode sounds the same as overtake, which doesn't cause a constant discharge rate either. 

You're correct no mode drains the battery instantly, i meant deploying 160kw drains the battery at a very quick rate at a push of a button, whereas attack mode is a race mode which deploys a bit much energy overall throughout a lap. But I could be wrong, I'm sure I've heard other teams mention the overtake button, but like you said it could be different between teams. Either way I still think the ERS modes in the race need a bit of refining

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2 minutes ago, onionbarje23 said:

i meant deploying 160kw drains the battery at a very quick rate at a push of a button, whereas attack mode is a race mode which deploys a bit much energy overall throughout a lap.

I've just watched the video section and still think it sounds like overtake to me :classic_smile:. I could absolutely be wrong though!

Not sure if you've read the following current thread but there it may be of interest if not:

 

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Ahh ok, so here mario basically says the overtake button deploys the maximum 120kw (i mistakenly said 160kw) and if you leave it on, you'll reach the max deployment rate (4mj per lap) after 30 seconds (at high/full throttle). 

My point is as attack mode, is a balance race mode, it will never deploy 4mj per lap. Actually as you can only harvest 2mj per lap, it should only deploy a bit over 2mj per lap. For example if your in attack mode for a whole lap, you'll deploy 2.5 mj, save mode 1.5 mj per lap and neutral mode would be 2mj per lap (I'm assuming you're able to regenerate 2mj per lap, so neutral mode wouldn't deplete the battery).

Obviously the smart guys at codies would have to balance this per track, but that's how i thought it kinda of works in the real world

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1 minute ago, onionbarje23 said:

My point is as attack mode, is a balance race mode, it will never deploy 4mj per lap.

It is not at all clear to me that this is true based on the video you posted. I'm not sure why you're saying it is a 'balanced race mode' and I could well believe it could deploy 4MJ in a lap. Note my video above where Lewis hit this limit. We really don't have enough info. to go on to be sure either way though :classic_smile:.

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26 minutes ago, onionbarje23 said:

Ahh ok, so here mario basically says the overtake button deploys the maximum 120kw (i mistakenly said 160kw) and if you leave it on, you'll reach the max deployment rate (4mj per lap) after 30 seconds (at high/full throttle). 

My point is as attack mode, is a balance race mode, it will never deploy 4mj per lap. Actually as you can only harvest 2mj per lap, it should only deploy a bit over 2mj per lap. For example if your in attack mode for a whole lap, you'll deploy 2.5 mj, save mode 1.5 mj per lap and neutral mode would be 2mj per lap (I'm assuming you're able to regenerate 2mj per lap, so neutral mode wouldn't deplete the battery).

Obviously the smart guys at codies would have to balance this per track, but that's how i thought it kinda of works in the real world

I've got a feeling it will be abused. I can see on fast parts of the track players will put it in attack mode. On the slower sections put it in harvest mode. 

It wouldn't be as bad as 2019 but you could see it being used a few times per lap. 

it's the same as the stupid fuel mix you don't see drivers putting it in low in corners and high in straights.

 

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13 hours ago, Dunky1980 said:

I've got a feeling it will be abused. I can see on fast parts of the track players will put it in attack mode. On the slower sections put it in harvest mode. 

It wouldn't be as bad as 2019 but you could see it being used a few times per lap. 

it's the same as the stupid fuel mix you don't see drivers putting it in low in corners and high in straights.

 

If implemented correctly all modes wouldn't deploy much ERS in slower sections, so it wouldn't make much of a difference. 

But I get what you mean about people abusing the mechanic but that always happens in games.

The overtake button is limited in real life (according to Mercedes, as it does a lot of damage), but in game people use it all the time. Maybe limit the times you can change the race mode per lap, or the race mode only changes when you next cross the line (unless you're under safety car)

 

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