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I am frustrated I cant tell (lap times, manual gearing)

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You may ask, why stick with a game that gives you so much pain?

Good question. It that kind of power in human, that just don't want to fail. And therefore try and try and ...

What is my problem?

I recently switched to self-gearing and at least(!) was able to reach the same (or slightly improved) the fast lap times at most of the tracks I drive after 1-2 weeks. Such tracks are

 - Brasil  1:10,011
 - Austria  1:05,249
 - England  1:27,982
 - Italy  1:21,783
 - Hungary  1:17,279
 - Spain  1:18,910
 - France  1:31,779
 - Russia  1:34,063
 - China  1:33,164
 - Japan  1:30,798
 - Belgium  1:46,882
 - USA  1:35,015

But what ever I try I could not reach my fast lap times I had with automatic gearing at these tracks:

 - Abu Dhabi  (not reaching 1:38,016)
 - Bahrain  (not reaching 1:28,064)
 - Netherlands  (not reaching 1:11,987)
 - Kanada  (not reaching 1:11,985)
 - Mexiko  (not reaching 1:18,562)
 - Australia  (not reaching 1:23,928) (<-- this is by the way my worse track of all listed, don't know what makes this track so bad for me)

(Other tracks I do no mention because I don't like them, and therefore I don't practise them. So I am far away do even talk about.)

For the above 6 tracks there is no way, and no matter if I use standard setups or from good players (I only use from Chino).

I don't understand this. Sometimes I am not sooo far away, but have tried it a lot (20, 30, ...). For most of the other tracks, I need not more than 4 tries and got it. Most problem is sliding, sliding, sliding. How could tires been overheaded even after 1-2 corners. And how to other drivers been able to top such times by 3-5 seconds on top? Maybe I will open another thread to talk about cheating, because I can't see how someone could reach better times without.

Another point is, even that for most of the track I reached my old times now with manual gearing, I did not get much better. I thought or I hoped that it may give my another second to close up to good players, but it is not. I like manual gearing now, and will not go back to automatic gearing, but why no benefit for the additinal work?

Are there online trainers that go into the same lobby as spectator and look how someone drives and give hints (for money)?

(Bytheway, I use the following drive support: TractionControl: medium, ABS: full, IdealLane: on/corners)

Edited by vTeritron
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Just quickly, the main benefit to manual over automatic is faster acceleration speeds out of corners which can make a massive difference especially heading onto long straights. 

That's where, primarily, you should be gaining time against your old lap times, are you waiting to right at the end of the rev and lights go red to go up a gear? 

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You might be able to get some useful feedback if you posted a video of a lap on one of the track you feel you're struggling with. 

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4 minutes ago, KNT2011 said:

. . ., are you waiting to right at the end of the rev and lights go red to go up a gear? 

I think I intend to do so, waiting until it is right at the end. But to be honest, I switch gear more by the sound. But maybe this is a little late. So it could be that I am not switch always ideally. Should record myself and look what is really happening.

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10 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

You might be able to get some useful feedback if you posted a video of a lap on one of the track you feel you're struggling with. 

How to best record it. Is there a support in the game itself. I see only finished races in the cinema view, but not fast labs.

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1 hour ago, vTeritron said:

For most of the other tracks, I need not more than 4 tries and got it. Most problem is sliding, sliding, sliding. How could tires been overheaded even after 1-2 corners.

This is part setup, part driving style. You said you just use "Chino" (never heard of) setups or go with the default ones. Well, there's a reason people use different setups, to match with their driving style and get the most performance out of their car.

There's no way around it, mate. You need to improve on both the way you drive and the way you understand setups. If you only go by other people's choices without handling the car the same as they do, you'll never get the same results.

And there's no telling what you are doing wrong with that description alone. It's too vague. Please post a video by either using the Share function in the PS4 or the alternative that your platform provides.

Yes, there is cheating in the game, but it's by a minority of players. Like 0.2-1% of the player base, if I were to bet on it, and certainly not in those laptimes range.

Edit: My point is cheating should not even cross your mind when you didn't nail down the fundamentals yet. Players who encounter cheaters are those on the top 20 of the leaderboards.

And please turn on the upshift tone on the settings. It's a beep that goes on when it's the ideal time to upshift, just like it is on real F1. Mate, simply by not upshifting at the right moment you could be leaving 0.2-0.4 seconds per corner. That is huge.

Edited by marioho
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42 minutes ago, vTeritron said:

How to best record it. Is there a support in the game itself. I see only finished races in the cinema view, but not fast labs.

On PS4 I'd use the Share button to send content to my linked YouTube account. I don't know about other platforms though.

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1 hour ago, vTeritron said:

Are there online trainers that go into the same lobby as spectator and look how someone drives and give hints (for money)?

(Bytheway, I use the following drive support: TractionControl: medium, ABS: full, IdealLane: on/corners)

There are professional and semi-professional people that do it. Try searching for "Scott Mansell" or "Driver61" (the same person). He's a driver coach, used to race himself. Son of a certain Nigel. Plenty of people are willing to help for free though.

You will become faster once you get rid off traction control. ABS is pretty borderline. If you really want to take your driving to the next level you should also turn off the racing line. It teaches you bad habits and the longer you stick with it, the harder it will be to start driving without.

1 hour ago, KNT2011 said:

Just quickly, the main benefit to manual over automatic is faster acceleration speeds out of corners which can make a massive difference especially heading onto long straights. 

That's where, primarily, you should be gaining time against your old lap times, are you waiting to right at the end of the rev and lights go red to go up a gear? 

Are you referring to short-shifting or what? Is that even a thing with traction control?

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26 minutes ago, marioho said:

And please turn on the upshift tone on the settings. It's a beep that goes on when it's the ideal time to upshift, just like it is on real F1. 

Thanks, I will do that. I thought no need for such a tone, because everyone can hear that high sound of the engine, when it is time to shift up. But looks like it is not such easy that it sounds.

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33 minutes ago, janbonator said:

Try searching for "Scott Mansell" or "Driver61" (the same person). He's a driver coach, used to race himself. Son of a certain Nigel.

Not in a million years I'd have guessed. For real?

Nigel is a stud with forearms than bend steering wheels. Scott is so... affable?

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28 minutes ago, janbonator said:

Son of a certain Nigel.

Not to side-track the conversation here but he isn't the son of Nigel, the name of his father is Kevin. He's amazing anyways, the (free) videos provided on the website are worth a lot and super helpful. Something that helped me improve (aside from disabling assists) is watching videos of other drivers, mostly Tiametmarduk & friends and while watching I payed attention to braking points etc.

I'm also working on a platform that will help folks use telemetry data to improve their lap times (not going to link to it here though since the forum rules don't allow adverts AFAIK).

Other than that: practice, practice, practice.

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Yeah, just checked and came here to edit my post. There's a reason for Scot not being there bending steel beams left and right. He's not Nigel's.

Anyway his channel is great! I've linked a few of his videos here already.

@cgfdoo I'd give your platform a go if you're willing to shoot me a PM.

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Right, well thanks for clearing that up guys. Related though, right?

@cgfdoo which program would you recommend for recording telemetry?

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1 hour ago, janbonator said:

Are you referring to short-shifting or what? Is that even a thing with traction control?

Short-shifting can definitely still be beneficial when using medium TC. You are of course right it has added benefit with TC off though.

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22 minutes ago, janbonator said:

@cgfdoo which program would you recommend for recording telemetry?

Good question and I'll try to answer it as unbiased as possible: I don't really have a favourite, at the end of the it will be important that you can compare two (or more) lap times to each other to see where the differences are and then turn that into action on the track. On Windows I enjoyed using "Sim Racing Telemetry" but it doesn't seem to have been updated for F1 2020 yet so you may loose out on some data since you have to switch the UDP format in the game to 2019 which is slightly different to the format 2020 uses, you get the main bits of data regardless of that though.

I haven't used any on mobile so far but but might be a better option if you are primarily playing on a console or don't have a PC around that you can or want to keep on all the time.

That being said, unless you really understand how to read and interpret the data it'll probably not get you super far - that is the space I want to push into, making the complex data understandable and digestible to the average person to maximise their potential.

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8 minutes ago, cgfdoo said:

Good question and I'll try to answer it as unbiased as possible: I don't really have a favourite, at the end of the it will be important that you can compare two (or more) lap times to each other to see where the differences are and then turn that into action on the track. On Windows I enjoyed using "Sim Racing Telemetry" but it doesn't seem to have been updated for F1 2020 yet so you may loose out on some data since you have to switch the UDP format in the game to 2019 which is slightly different to the format 2020 uses, you get the main bits of data regardless of that though.

I haven't used any on mobile so far but but might be a better option if you are primarily playing on a console or don't have a PC around that you can or want to keep on all the time.

That being said, unless you really understand how to read and interpret the data it'll probably not get you super far - that is the space I want to push into, making the complex data understandable and digestible to the average person to maximise their potential.

Thanks! I had a telemetry software for 2019 but it wasn't exactly stable so I didn't bother much with it. In terms of gear I play on console, but my PC is readily available. Being a sort of an oddball I've never owned a smartphone and I don't think that will be changing any time soon.

If you need someone for a case study you can count me in. Time Trial, league racing - those are what I love enough to put 30-50 hours a week into them.

Is your plan to concentrate on F1 or are you going to do other things such as rallying?

Edited by janbonator

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Op, I'm as slow as you, so don't ask me how, but if you watch any e-sports event or fast youtuber, you'll see that laps 3-5 seconds faster than ours are indeed legit.

Stick with manual gears. It's more fun and more realistic, but not only that. You will be faster once you get the hang of it. I think it helps a lot for faster braking, and it's very useful for traction to be able to choose on what gear you want to be taking a corner.

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Hi,

I recorded one of such fast laps, but how can I show it to you here? The size is 166 MB, but allowd is only ~49 MB.

Thx

 

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This is what I recorded quickly. It kind of demonstrates my struggling to match my time with automatic gearing. Here again missed by 0,5 seconds.

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I suggest clearing the time with an automatic gearbox, which you seem to be averse to, because auto and manual gearboxes are completely different. For example, I'm prone to overshifting either way, which can't using an auto, with a manual gearbox. My only assist is medium TC right now, after dumpng both ABS and the automatic gearbox. It could be down to your driving style at those tracks not meshing with a manual gearbox and the assists you're using, if any.

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If he wants to get better on manual gears, going back to automatic transmission won't do him no good.

@vTeritron I watched only once and I'm on mobile, sorry for that. Will get back to you once I'm on PC. But a few tidbits:

  • Zandvoort is rad, isn't it?! Haha love the track. But it's not the best one around to analyze one's driving with its lots of elevation changes and curving braking zones. It would be better if you could make a lap on a more traditional track, specially one with high and low speed corners.
  • Even so, your braking seems to be all over the place, mate. See how you apply like 40% braking pressure, drop it to 20%, spike it again to 80% and so on? That's very detrimental. It has to do with grip. Grip is used for everything: accelerating, braking and turning. And the way these cars go around, with their massive power and downforce and speed, they have to take corners very deliberately in order to not screw their trajectory. If you're braking and turning (and sometimes even applying throttle) at the same time you won't be doing any of those things right. I mean, there's trail braking, a great technique specially for low speed corners where you're coming in hot and fast, but that's not what you're doing here - there's an actual technique for that.
  • Notice the gearbox screeching when you downshift? That's not good. Not only for component wear, but for your performance too. When you downshift or upshift at the wrong moment in those transient handling situations (e.g. mid turning) you unsettle the car, makes it unstable. You're downshifting way too early sometimes. Go by sound, push on hard on the brakes and let the engine slow down a bit before beginning to downshift. Like a second or half a second of pure braking before going down on the gears. Notice how it sounds way different, then go by sound from there on while you try to get the first downshift closer to the moment you stomp on the brakes. There are proper techniques for that too and Driver61 probably has a video on the subject, but you can work wonders just by seeing things for yourself now.

I think you'll benefit the most by watching a hotlap video by some youtuber out there. Better yet if you could watch their video and yours side by side. Pay attention to how the brake and how they downshift. Your throttle application can get better too but that's too dependant on how your car is positioned in the corner and this will change a lot once you get better on those points, so one thing at a time.

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7 hours ago, marioho said:

If he wants to get better on manual gears, going back to automatic transmission won't do him no good.

@vTeritron I watched only once and I'm on mobile, sorry for that. Will get back to you once I'm on PC. But a few tidbits:

  • Zandvoort is rad, isn't it?! Haha love the track. But it's not the best one around to analyze one's driving with its lots of elevation changes and curving braking zones. It would be better if you could make a lap on a more traditional track, specially one with high and low speed corners.
  • Even so, your braking seems to be all over the place, mate. See how you apply like 40% braking pressure, drop it to 20%, spike it again to 80% and so on? That's very detrimental. It has to do with grip. Grip is used for everything: accelerating, braking and turning. And the way these cars go around, with their massive power and downforce and speed, they have to take corners very deliberately in order to not screw their trajectory. If you're braking and turning (and sometimes even applying throttle) at the same time you won't be doing any of those things right. I mean, there's trail braking, a great technique specially for low speed corners where you're coming in hot and fast, but that's not what you're doing here - there's an actual technique for that.
  • Notice the gearbox screeching when you downshift? That's not good. Not only for component wear, but for your performance too. When you downshift or upshift at the wrong moment in those transient handling situations (e.g. mid turning) you unsettle the car, makes it unstable. You're downshifting way too early sometimes. Go by sound, push on hard on the brakes and let the engine slow down a bit before beginning to downshift. Like a second or half a second of pure braking before going down on the gears. Notice how it sounds way different, then go by sound from there on while you try to get the first downshift closer to the moment you stomp on the brakes. There are proper techniques for that too and Driver61 probably has a video on the subject, but you can work wonders just by seeing things for yourself now.

I think you'll benefit the most by watching a hotlap video by some youtuber out there. Better yet if you could watch their video and yours side by side. Pay attention to how the brake and how they downshift. Your throttle application can get better too but that's too dependant on how your car is positioned in the corner and this will change a lot once you get better on those points, so one thing at a time.

Thanks mate. Interesting what could been seen from such a small video. I will also make a video from Bahrain or Abu Dhabi.

Additionally I will focus next practizing on switching down later. I learned somewhere to switch down at the same time when breaking. Also I have a look on breaking. As understood short but full breaking is better then several times breaking with less power.

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Here is a 'fast lap' at Bahrain which I quickly recorded in order to have something different to the special Netherlands track. Missed my auto-gear time by 0.6 seconds here.

Sorry, for the bad sound quality. I have this annoying sound stuttering since F1 2019 and no hint from the internet ever worked. Meanwhile I am assuming that simply my main Processor (I5) is not fast enough for producing proper sound. And of course, the additional recording, is not very helpful for the load of my pc.

 

Edited by vTeritron

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Having the dynamic racingline on is probably not helping you either. 
As you're now SO focussed on getting the manual gearing right, but you also have a racing line dictating you what to do. So you're learning to shift down partly based on the racing line. 
Turning it off and not always taking the ideal line through a corner (because of learning, slightly too late braking, overtaking, etc) will help you understand the manual gearing better, as you get more of an understanding for the car. 

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