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I am frustrated I cant tell (lap times, manual gearing)


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5 minutes ago, Malarky94 said:

Having the dynamic racingline on is probably not helping you either. 
As you're now SO focussed on getting the manual gearing right, but you also have a racing line dictating you what to do. So you're learning to shift down partly based on the racing line. 
Turning it off and not always taking the ideal line through a corner (because of learning, slightly too late braking, overtaking, etc) will help you understand the manual gearing better, as you get more of an understanding for the car. 

Yes. I break based on the 'ideal line', and therefore also shift-down based on that.

But turning it (the 'ideal line') of, would be a nightmare:-)

Edited by vTeritron
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That's why I always suggest to people who want to get rid of assists to start with the racing line. It's often underestimated how much your driving will improve once you make yourself learn to drive without it. 
I had it on for all my F1 games as well, but when I bought F1 2017 back when it just released I promised myself that would be the game where I'd turn it off. It took a LOT of practice, a LOT of patience and determination, but I made myself never turn it back on, not even for a difficult circuit to not get lazy with it. I never lowered the AI difficulty and made myself be on par with them without the racing line. 
Tracks where I used to be good at suddenly became hard, etc. But it improved my driving massively. 

Right now you're letting a racing line dictate your driving, pace, cornering speed, selected gears. 
In my opinion and I don't mean to offend you, but I don't think you'll ever fully get the hang of manual gears when you keep letting a racing line decide pretty much everything else for you. 
It's the first assist that has to go if you want to drive better and achieve better laptimes. 

I've turned it off all those years ago and I've never looked back. I had to relearn every circuit but now I'm happy I did.

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I am driving now F1 for 3,5 month. I did not drive any race games before (except GrandPrix 3 on keyboard around the 2000).

So I learn it more or less from scratch, but of course as an adult, you know the basic physics from real car driving.

I thought turn of one race support after the other, not 2 at the same time. But lets see, maybe I give it a try in the next week. But anyway thanks for all that info!

 

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Well of course I understand you're not going to turn 2 or multiple assists off at once. 
I am impressed by you choosing to turn automatic gears off after such a short period of playing F1 games. It's not easy and you'll love yourself for it if you manage to do it. 
I'm not saying you should stop it now and learn to drive without the racing line first, etc etc. 
It's your game, your fun and you decide what you do. 

All I'm saying is that based on my own personal experience, turning off the racing line is a gateway to turning off more assists in the future. Turning off the racing line makes you finally think for yourself, approach corners based on skill instead of following a racing line. 
When I was going to turn it off I thought I'd never nail corners or braking zones anymore.. But it didn't even take super long for me to start noticing I was actually quicker without the racing line as you learn reference points and you start to get a feel for the car. 

For example turn X requires you to brake at the 100m board. Well, sometimes you need to brake at 110-120m out because you were going faster down the straight or whatever. All those little things are a feeling for the car you create by playing a lot and not having a racing line tell you what to do

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A lot of useful things have already been said, so instead of repeating them I'll just add an observation or two.

Especially in the Zandvoort video you had several corners, especially T1, where you are applying both throttle and brake simultaneously. The technique can be useful in some circumstances, but it's rather advanced and almost always it's better to not to do it.

After reading some posts in this thread I decided to try out the upshift tone for the first time. To me it feels like the beep comes about 500 RPM too early. I tried starting shifting on the beep but I was losing time to my personal bests. I have a feeling the upshift tone is on the conservative side to help protect components.

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59 minutes ago, janbonator said:

After reading some posts in this thread I decided to try out the upshift tone for the first time. To me it feels like the beep comes about 500 RPM too early. I tried starting shifting on the beep but I was losing time to my personal bests. I have a feeling the upshift tone is on the conservative side to help protect components.

To be honest, I am also a bit confused when the beep comes (already in the red part).

Is this right or wrong for accellerating best (normal, dry conditions):

   "Wait for all lights to light up (even purple), then its the right time to switch?"

What the different color means?  What I assume:

  - green: everything ok, the current gear is fine
  - red: you can stay at the current gear for some time or already shift (maybe shift here for saving tyre life?)
  - purple: time to definitively shift, otherwise it can damage gear box (if staying here too long)

Edited by vTeritron
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6 minutes ago, vTeritron said:

To be honest, I am also a bit confused when the beep comes.

Is this right or wrong for accellerating best (normal, dry conditions):

   "Wait for all lights to light up (even purple), then its the right time to switch?"

What the different color means?  What I assume:

  - green: everything ok, the current gear is fine
  - red: you can stay at the current gear for some time or already shift
  - purple: time to definitively shift, otherwise it can damage gear box (if staying here too long)

I believe the transition from red to purple is the optimal transition point? Just looking at your video it seems that the beep comes part way through the red part but when accelerating hard it will have got to the purple bit in the time it takes to react so I wouldn't personally have thought this was an issue? I use the beep but I'm still learning.

At 24s in your first video I noticed you changed up before the beep though. I've not stared at it to see if you did at other times too.

Out of interest, the automatic gear times you're struggling to match - were these time you could get very close to consistently or a rare very good time? If the latter it could partly explain why you aren't quickly matching them.

 

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9 minutes ago, vTeritron said:

To be honest, I am also a bit confused when the beep comes.

Is this right or wrong for accellerating best (normal, dry conditions):

   "Wait for all lights to light up (even purple), then its the right time to switch?"

What the different color means?  What I assume:

  - green: everything ok, the current gear is fine
  - red: you can stay at the current gear for some time or already shift (maybe shift here for saving tyre life?)
  - purple: time to definitively shift, otherwise it can damage gear box (if staying here too long)

Being red-green colour blind I pay no attention to colour coding of any kind. In general I upshift when the rev lights go all the way to the right, just at the point when the last ones would start "flashing". At this point I just use my ears for it, though.

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27 minutes ago, Ultra3142 said:

... the time it takes to react

Yes, this must be the explanation for the peep in the red, because the human reaction may be 150 ms and then the reaction is in the purple. Great man!

If they would send the peep in the purple it would be too late when I hear it and send my finger the command to pull!

 

Out of interest, the automatic gear times you're struggling to match - were these time you could get very close to consistently or a rare very good time? If the latter it could partly explain why you aren't quickly matching them.

To be honest, my fast lap times are never meant to be consistent. They are all achieve with kind of luck to get most of the things good in the track. For example my qualification times are almost 1.5 seconds behind, since you have most of the time (quick qualifying) a one-shot or nothing thing. And my fastest race laps are again 1.5 seconds behind, since you have more fuel at the beginning and at the end bad tyres.

 

Edited by vTeritron
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@janbonator @vTeritron just a couple general tidbits.

About the upshift tone, you can find things scattered all around the internet but Vettel talks specifically though superficially about it on Top Gear here (starting at 4:02):

You can certainly go beyond the beep, it is just an additional cue to upshift and depending on the situation it is much better to stick with your current gear and rev the engine up more (a particular corner in Silverstone springs to mind) than upshifting it immediately. But is is a cue that's been around for early 2000s as far as I can tell.

And the beep can go out differently, according to the teams. Same with the rev lights, very often called shift lights. Tt is all down to team/driver's preference, as some prefers a sequential from left to right order while others fancy an "inwards" order, with the left and right lights going up at the edges and meeting at the last set of colored lights at the center.

Quote

Interestingly, the actual colours of the lights are not that important. But the contrast needs to be vivid, and green-red-blue seems to work best. The way the lights illuminate (the sequence) is down to the driver's preference, and while Kimi likes the lights to light-up from left to right, Juan Pablo likes the outside lights to illuminate first, then the lights work their way in to the middle.

Jack Aitken talk about them here, and the last set of lights signals the moment to upshift, as per the image below:

image.thumb.png.0d0740af0df7e10f24a86ea621fea066.png
 

Even the colors (and number of them) are somewhat down to personal choice. For his spell at McLaren for instance Alonso only had blue and red lights at his wheel and obviously he would change when the blue ones went up:

image.thumb.png.23f717c0103ef665a7be8127a06737d6.png

TL;DR: your bread and butter upshifting technique should be to change gears when the beep goes out and the last set of lights appears on your HUD/steering wheel. There's an ever changing relation between engine speed, power being output through the crankshaft and torque, so there's always a margin to explore when changing gears and you'll learn to take advantage of it with time. 

For basic pointers, both the beep and the last set of lights are ok.

Edit: @vTeritron just watched your Bahrain lap and found it better than Zandvoort, but those issues still remain. There were corners in which you were still blasting like 60-80% brake pressure after the apex for a brief moment. 

Besides all the reasons the community have discussed in this thread, there's one thing that you don't really need to fret about (specially not in Codemasters F1 games) but should still consider – at least as one more incentive to keep your braking technique always on point. Brake and throttle applications are not strictly about speed; they are all about your car balance too. 

When you brake, accelerate or coast, you're changing its center of gravity thus changing its grip. If you accelerate too early on a corner on a corner, your weight is shifting backwards, decreasing grip on the front tyres. Your front axle is the only one doing all the turning, all the steering, so when you shift the weight backwards your car will understeer as its ability to turn in has been severely hampered. The same with the braking, you're not only deaccelerating the car but loading up one corner of the car in detriment of others.

What's the application of that? Haha none I can advise for, specially not for someone that is still getting a hold on driving without assists. As I said, just one more incentive for you to nail down the basics of braking in F1, as the consequences of improper brake and throttle application go way beyond a mere number on the speedometer.

Footwork is a hell of an underrated skill for us that only watch racing through the telly. 

Please, consider watching someone doing a proper lap on Bahrain for instance. Like Jaaames. When he gets to the braking zones, slow the video down (shift + < on youtube). Try to watch it side by side with yours. Pay no mind to his comments about shortshifting, that's another technique and one you are better off setting aside for another opportunity. 

Edited by marioho
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On 9/20/2020 at 8:04 AM, vTeritron said:

This is what I recorded quickly. It kind of demonstrates my struggling to match my time with automatic gearing. Here again missed by 0,5 seconds.

Thought I’d weigh in here as no one seems to have mentioned it which boggles my mind given how blatantly obvious it is!

On this particular lap @ Zandvoort, with the exception of turns 11, 12, 13 & 14 you’re completely missing the apex of each & every corner - even with the racing line on. It’s even more noticeable with the T-cam than it is in cockpit view because of just how much more of the track you can see.

Further compounding the problem is you’re then not using all the available track exiting each corner which is actually where you gain time as exiting corners faster means you’re faster down the following straight.

I’ve stated as much in another thread but my advice would be to forget lap times altogether (for now). It really makes no difference until you’re up the sharp end of the leaderboard to be comparing lap times with others. So in essence, slow your roll (pace) all the way down to a point you’re able to stick to the ideal racing line. Focus almost exclusively on learning the line into, through & out of every corner, Because until you’re on the ideal line all the way around the lap, it’s absolutely pointless trying to master gearing, braking/throttle application etc because I’m willing to bet the house that I don’t own on the fact that in doing so you’re creating bad habits that’ll be an additional challenge to unlearn when you are on the correct line because you’ll no doubt find where, when & how much you need to brake, accelerate or even change gear will be completely different.

The reason I say all this is that you’re going down the completely wrong path thinking changing gears, braking or accelerating better will improve your lap time more than being on the ideal line through each corner will. 

I’m going to watch your Bahrain vid next, but I urge you to follow the above advice & then turn off the racing line once you’ve learned which way the track goes (as well as all other assists that you’re comfortable with asap) in favour of turning lap after lap after lap. After lap.

The advantage we have in playing a game is that any mistakes made don’t have the serious repercussions that they do in real life. Not to mention the fact that we don’t have to pay for tyres & fuel ✌

Edited by Guga_Cyr
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On 9/20/2020 at 7:45 PM, vTeritron said:

Here is a 'fast lap' at Bahrain which I quickly recorded in order to have something different to the special Netherlands track. Missed my auto-gear time by 0.6 seconds here.

 

Ok, similar situation here in that you miss a lot of apexes & generally don’t open up the angle of the corner by maximising the width of the track on exit... 

You do hit more apexes on this lap than the Zandvoort one - particularly turns 10 & 13 which are far & away the most difficult on this particular track to get right. 

Keep at it, but do try to focus more on the line you’re taking into, through & out of every corner before moving onto improving how you manipulate the controls as this is where you’ll find the biggest improvement in lap time 😉

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