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Why is Ford Escort Cosworth so slow?

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I kinda like the Cossie, especially after it got new great sounds, but the sad truth is it's pitifully slow compared to others in the class, Lancia in particular. Why is this? I'm not expert on the real-life car but looking at WRC results it sure wasn't a completely useless car. It got 5 wins and several more podiums in its first season, when the aging Lancia was still in use by Jolly Club, and in 1996 Carlos Sainz with Ford battled it out against Colin McRae for the "best of the rest", finishing only 3 points behind Colin and 11 ahead of the other Subaru driver. So you'd think Cossie should be about equal to the Lancia and Impreza 1995?

The balancing in Group A doesn't make much sense to me anyway. Making it imbalanced for the sake of realism would make some sense, so would making it unrealistic for the sake of balance, but it seems to very much both imbalanced AND unrealistic. Lancia is the dominant car in the class, Subarus and Mitsu (which realistically should be way faster than the far older GrA cars, this is the car that won WRC drivers' title when Subaru and Ford had ditched their GrA cars and were already using purpose-built World Rally Cars) are there just to make up the numbers and poor Cossie is left to bite the dust. Lancia was of course a hugely successful car IRL but much of that was in the late 80s when it had no serious competition, in the early 90s it was already matched by Celica, and by mid-90s it would have been outdated. Doesn't seem to have much basis on reality that it's so dominant in DR2.0 and runs rings around the poor Cossie especially. So what's the deal? Maybe I'm just missing something here.

Edited by HoksuHoo

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Maybe its some difference between the 7 gear we have in game and the 6 gear version? If i remember correctly they changed it from being 7 to 6 gear but i might be wrong about that. The Ford can be fast though but its very important to not make any mistakes. Also it feels like it flips over much easier than the other group A cars so while its fairly easy to get away with taking the inside in some turns with other cars (not talking about cutting the track) it takes some luck to not hit anything that will flip it over - or that you know the stage very well.

 

Greece and Wales are locations where im surprised if i havent put the car on its roof during a club and not trusting the car wont let you push it as hard. Same goes for the subaru 01' but thats another topic ūüėõ

Edited by somethingthing

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To me it's 6-speed since my H-shifter only has 6 gears so I couldn't use the 7th gear even if I wanted to. Which I don't. Cossie just feels clumsy and overweight to me, nowhere near as nimble around corners as the Lancia in particular

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The Group A class is pretty skewed. The Delta is stated (and seems) to have a power advantage as its specifications seem to mirror those of the Integrale earlier in the Group A period (when the cars had a wider turbo restrictor). 

I find the EscCos the weakest car in the class, though I love driving it, so I frequently use it anyway. 

The Evo VI wasn't really a true Group A car, in that concessions were made to allow Mitsubishi to continue to run it. I am glad to see it in game, but it doesn't belong in Group A and, as has been suggested multiple times, I'd like to see a "late 90's" class with the S5 Impreza, Evo VI and perhaps the Mk.1 Focus as well. 

Furthermore I think Group A could actually be split in two, with the Delta, EscCos and Legacy in the first half and all with matched specification to a single year. The second half of the class would have the Impreza and an Evo III or IV (and, in a perfect world, the ST205 Celica!)...

...I accept that sub-categories of classes might be a bit much though, so I'd settle with a more realistically balanced single class. 

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37 minutes ago, tbtstt said:

The Evo VI wasn't really a true Group A car, in that concessions were made to allow Mitsubishi to continue to run it. I am glad to see it in game, but it doesn't belong in Group A and, as has been suggested multiple times, I'd like to see a "late 90's" class with the S5 Impreza, Evo VI and perhaps the Mk.1 Focus as well.

I have made a similar suggestion too in the past, Evo VI doesn't really fit with the much older GrA cars. Though for the late 90s class I'd suggest Escort WRC instead of Focus. Ford converted the GrA Cossie to world rally car spec as a stopgap car while they were developing the Focus (which was designed to world rally car spec from scratch) and the WRC Cossie was actually a pretty decent car, Sainz and Kankkunen got some good results with that. And since it was based on the GrA version Codies could use that as base. Then also split the 2000cc clas in two, like early 2000s (Focus Mk1, Impreza 2001, 206 etc) and late 2000s (C4, Focus mk2 etc). Shoving too many cars into a class where they don't fit and aren't competitive isn't the best use of the cars. Don't even get me started on H3, why the 240Z and Ascona are there I truly have no idea.

Maybe the Group A could use some rethink, but so does the individual performances of the Group A cars. Just makes no sense to me that the Lancia is so enormously faster than Cossie.

Edited by HoksuHoo

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Having recently re-discovered my dads book which reviews the 1992 WRC, I feel somewhat qualified to comment on the performance of the Delta/Cosworth in DR2. If you want the short answer, I say its pretty close to accurate - although Codies could have done better with the cars/years chosen. (Maybe that's down to licensing).

I'm going to assume the specifications of the cars in DR2 are accurate to the year they are listed as in game. That means the Delta and Legacy RS use the 1992 regs, and the Escort Cosworth the 1993 regs. 

As tbbtstt mentioned the turbo restrictions were changed a lot throughout Group A, however in 1992 and 1993 they were the same (38mm restriction).The power difference between the Delta (330hp) and Cossie (310hp) is more than likely down to the use of 'special fuel' during the 1992 season. Supposedly a 60/70hp increase was found when compared to pump fuel. For 1993, the FIA imposed a control fuel to limit power to around 300hp.

The bigger factor was the minimum weight which was 1100kg in 1992 and 1200kg in 1993. The Legacy was a slightly heavy car and the best weight they achieved in the year was 1152kg, which is reflected in DR2. The Legacy then became more competitive in 1993, and one of the Delta's advantages in its lightness was lost in 1993.The Cosworth was competitive in 1993 against both of these cars.

If Codies is stuck with the current cars for the next game, then I would suggest using the 1993 specs of the cars to achieve a balanced Group A class. This does rely on being able to move the Evo VI to the 2000cc class, as it would otherwise become dominant in the Group A class. The Delta, Cossie, Legacy, and 555 Impreza were all used in the 1993 season and should all have a similar performance (300hp, 1200kg). Whether Lancia would agree to their car being slowed down in the game is one question, and doing this would also make the Legacy somewhat redundant.

As already said, an early Group A class (1987-92) would be the ideal solution. It does somewhat rely on Toyota coming to the game though as the Celica was the only car to get close to the Delta's specs that season (1100kg, 330hp). The Sierra RS 4x4 was also close by the end of the year, however started the year far too heavy so I don't know what weight would end up being used in game. The Legacy, Galant, and Nissan Sunny could also be added and would have a pretty close second tier in the class at around 1150kg, 300hp.

 

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On 9/25/2020 at 11:17 AM, HoksuHoo said:

To me it's 6-speed since my H-shifter only has 6 gears so I couldn't use the 7th gear even if I wanted to. Which I don't. Cossie just feels clumsy and overweight to me, nowhere near as nimble around corners as the Lancia in particular

Have you adjusted the gearing to compensate for lack of 7th gear?

It'll hurt the acceleration even more though.

I agree on the nimbleness though, for me the Evo 6 and the Delta are the standout cars in the Class.

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Of course I have adjusted the gears. So the car acts as 6-speed to me, the same as if it only had 6 gears. Also not 100% certain of this but my gut impression is that with clutch+H-shifter, removing the 7th gear from constant use actually improves acceleration since you will be spending more time accelerating and not shifting all the time, which is considerably slow in clutch+H-pattern mode as opposed to sequential without clutching. I'm pretty sure the gearbox isn't where the problem lies with Cossie being way off the pace.

Edited by HoksuHoo
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The Cosworth is not slow, but the Lancia is certainly faster than the others.


The Cosworth is extremely understeering. So I would advise you to turn the differentials very low, except for accelerating.

Then there are the other setup options for oversteering.

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I agree that the Cossie should be closer to the Impreza 555, the difference between 1993 and 1995 wasn't that big.

The Cossie does have a very peaky power band - which is why the 7 speed gearbox was used in the first place, so it could stay at high rpm all the time. This was improved a bit by 1995 (and a 6 speed was used), but my gut feel is that dr2 doesn't have as much slip as in real life. This makes it hard to spin the wheels and stay at high rpm. Combine that with a understeering car and it becomes very difficult to get the best out of it. The Impreza has a lot of understeer as well imo, but because it has power at low rpm you don't lose as much time because it.

My other problem with the Cossie is the front splitter. On all the rough rallies, it catches on the ground and makes the car 'bounce' down the road. In the real world, the splitter would bend or break when you bottom the car out. Looking through photos, there's a fair few where it runs without the splitter - whether intentionally or because its broken off. Maybe it could be removed from the model when on gravel tires.

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14 hours ago, dylanh25 said:

My other problem with the Cossie is the front splitter. On all the rough rallies, it catches on the ground and makes the car 'bounce' down the road. In the real world, the splitter would bend or break when you bottom the car out. Looking through photos, there's a fair few where it runs without the splitter - whether intentionally or because its broken off. Maybe it could be removed from the model when on gravel tires.ÔĽŅ

I just tried it in Finland, had no problems with it, most jumps were well cushioned.

Of course you have to put the car higher (Ride Height) and you have to choose the suspension (Spring Rate) harder, about 87 in front and 61 in the rear. (Don't put it on the dumpers (bump), they don't work).

 

In real life drivers do brake before they jump? After all, the vehicle could otherwise be damaged.

But we drive with indestructible. It is a Sim.

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balancing across classes would make the game so much more fun gameplay wise. once people realize which car is the quickest in each class then the majority of people will only use the fastest car. which means many of the cars which are often more fun to drive wont be driven.

it has been mentioned for years about this. the delta can be like 10 seconds quicker. not really realistic.

1 second in it you could say this or that car is faster and believe it but when its so big a difference it does effect the gameplay and classes.

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Balancing is also very easy. Just add more or less weight and it will drive differently. Or change HP. It doesn't matter if it deviates a little from the real thing. Or is that prohibited because of the licenses?

The DS 21 (H1) is completely useless, because the other two are much faster.

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2 hours ago, PaulNbg said:

Balancing is also very easy. Just add more or less weight and it will drive differently. Or change HP. It doesn't matter if it deviates a little from the real thing. Or is that prohibited because of the licenses?

The DS 21 (H1) is completely useless, because the other two are much faster.

I prefer the cars accurate.

@tbtstt's idea of splitting the class is better.
But even better would be the option to whitelist cars in clubs, MP and custom championships.
There could also be more variety in My Team events regarding car restrictions, like not only "any car of a certain class" or "this specific car only".
Why not a battle between just two cars of a specific class for example?

I also wished there would be a filter option in Time Trials for every single car.
So you could post a time individually for each car and see on the board were you are against all others with this specific car through a filter option.
But the overall board (for each stage) would only show the best time in that class with the car you drove like it is now.

Would make Time Trials much more diverse, because it would make sense to drive all cars, not only the fastest in that class.


So, there are ways to make balanced championships and still have accurate cars.

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Or they can simply drop the 5 speed gearbox which was used by everybody not running out of Boreham (and Boreham themselves on occasions) and bring the Escort up to speed with everyone else.

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