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This is not good

https://simrace247.com/2020/10/16/tonizza-everyone-knew-the-sim-wasnt-ready-for-this/

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i said in a post on the state of multiplayer post, peer to peer connection for organised leagues or esports is not suitable, dedicated servers are needed like with AC or ACC supplied by someone like rackservice etc, this article just proves the point that many many people have said over the years.

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"but we cannot afford two DNFs for issues caused by hardware and software (which weren’t even tested correctly)"

🤔 One part they're blaming the game, then they're saying it's their fault? At least it sounds like so, as when racing from home, the participants themselves are in charge of their hardware and software, which is the number 1 reason for game crashes for instance. When they're racing in arenas, these are handled by F1 esports people and the game is played through LAN I suppose.

Obviously I wouldn't suggest running any serious events through P2P networking, but it kind of sounds that the issue was caused by the lack of testing or poorly functioning hardware/software... Though this I'm basing my impressions on the news article you linked, and I have no idea what actual issues they encountered, as it's not said in the article.

This isn't the only "sim" (why are we calling it a sim? :p) that has had issues during major events. rFactor 2 had to red flag their 24 hour event for example, due to multiple teams having issues. They've patched some of the encountered issues at least as far as I can remember, here's the statement after the event: https://www.studio-397.com/2019/07/statement-rf24/

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5 hours ago, UP100 said:

"but we cannot afford two DNFs for issues caused by hardware and software (which weren’t even tested correctly)"

🤔 One part they're blaming the game, then they're saying it's their fault? At least it sounds like so, as when racing from home, the participants themselves are in charge of their hardware and software, which is the number 1 reason for game crashes for instance. When they're racing in arenas, these are handled by F1 esports people and the game is played through LAN I suppose.

Obviously I wouldn't suggest running any serious events through P2P networking, but it kind of sounds that the issue was caused by the lack of testing or poorly functioning hardware/software... Though this I'm basing my impressions on the news article you linked, and I have no idea what actual issues they encountered, as it's not said in the article.

This isn't the only "sim" (why are we calling it a sim? :p) that has had issues during major events. rFactor 2 had to red flag their 24 hour event for example, due to multiple teams having issues. They've patched some of the encountered issues at least as far as I can remember, here's the statement after the event: https://www.studio-397.com/2019/07/statement-rf24/

The lead designer, Lee Mather, has been adamant for years that it is a sim.

How can the participants be in charge of the software? As far as I know, the players - be it regular Joes or esport drivers, have no way to access the coding of the game or to make changes to it, especially for network infrastructure. They can alter the code of the game to get more grip and speed though, i.e. use cheats. In terms of hardware, that is definitely a responsibility of the drivers at home.

It's great that they can't play through LAN now. It exposes all the glitches that us normal players are subject to daily. Perhaps it will force a meaningful change. Alternatively they just might push some esport patch that fixes the game for them to save public humiliation and leave the rest of us hanging.

You are right it's not the only sim that has had problems. I would imagine all of them have had their share. The difference is what you pointed out: they've been patched. We've had the same multiplayer glitches in the game for years and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

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57 minutes ago, janbonator said:

The lead designer, Lee Mather, has been adamant for years that it is a sim.

How can the participants be in charge of the software? As far as I know, the players - be it regular Joes or esport drivers, have no way to access the coding of the game or to make changes to it, especially for network infrastructure. They can alter the code of the game to get more grip and speed though, i.e. use cheats. In terms of hardware, that is definitely a responsibility of the drivers at home.

It's great that they can't play through LAN now. It exposes all the glitches that us normal players are subject to daily. Perhaps it will force a meaningful change. Alternatively they just might push some esport patch that fixes the game for them to save public humiliation and leave the rest of us hanging.

You are right it's not the only sim that has had problems. I would imagine all of them have had their share. The difference is what you pointed out: they've been patched. We've had the same multiplayer glitches in the game for years and there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

Most problematic software is third party software as far as I know. Literally anything could break one of the game's dependencies, causing an issue that is not the fault of the developers. So many issues and crashes have been fixed by the user removing/updating various third party software. I even know the statistic that over 50% of GRID 2019's crashes at during the launch window were due to outdated drivers! I think the plural form of the word software is software, which probably caused the confusion 🙂 

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Well then still they could easily reconnected and continued driving. 

But they disabled that in the e-sports build because it is too glitched to behold,
and the timings at the end would be wrong and they would have a 2 second fastest lap on rejoin most likely.

Also, disconnect from steam (according to the game, steam is usually fine) happens without your internet cutting out as well. but they shouldn't be dependant on steams functioning in the first place.

that and this p2p solution seems only good for messing around in open lobbies and not for any serious race.

Edited by Bicarda
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12 hours ago, UP100 said:

Most problematic software is third party software as far as I know. Literally anything could break one of the game's dependencies, causing an issue that is not the fault of the developers. So many issues and crashes have been fixed by the user removing/updating various third party software. I even know the statistic that over 50% of GRID 2019's crashes at during the launch window were due to outdated drivers! I think the plural form of the word software is software, which probably caused the confusion 🙂 

This time there was no confusion - although it was plausible to assume so. We simply have a disagreement on the interpretation of what software Tonizza was referring to.

The thing is, we are already months apart from the launch. These guys have been training relentlessly at home ever since. Of course I can only make assumptions on the matter, but those include thinking that having outdated drivers, for example, would have already manifested in a lot of problems before these events, and that they would've been promptly fixed.

Of course it's possible that they got a new PC the same day, installed some outdated drivers and never tested the game before the event. I just don't see it very likely. We are talking about professionals after all, guys that spend more time with the game than a regular blue or white collar at work.

IWe know that a new esports build was created and used for this event. To me it feels exceedingly likely this is the "incorrectly tested software" part referred to by Tonizza. The current esport qualifer event was also obviously either untested or tested incorrectly - as quite glaringly pointed out with the fuel mix bug.

At the same time I want to point out that I'm not on some hate-wagon rampage here. I love driving the game and probably spend too much time with it. I just think there are still a lot of issues to resolve, and to do so effectively it's important to call out things with their real names. A rose is a rose, manure is manure; but to grow and blossom, the rose needs the manure.

Edited by janbonator

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At the end Iracing, rfactor2, AC and ACC are having less problems with multiplayer. Even with the outdated drivers.........

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9 hours ago, janbonator said:

This time there was no confusion - although it was plausible to assume so. We simply have a disagreement on the interpretation of what software Tonizza was referring to.

The thing is, we are already months apart from the launch. These guys have been training relentlessly at home ever since. Of course I can only make assumptions on the matter, but those include thinking that having outdated drivers, for example, would have already manifested in a lot of problems before these events, and that they would've been promptly fixed.

Of course it's possible that they got a new PC the same day, installed some outdated drivers and never tested the game before the event. I just don't see it very likely. We are talking about professionals after all, guys that spend more time with the game than a regular blue or white collar at work.

IWe know that a new esports build was created and used for this event. To me it feels exceedingly likely this is the "incorrectly tested software" part referred to by Tonizza. The current esport qualifer event was also obviously either untested or tested incorrectly - as quite glaringly pointed out with the fuel mix bug.

At the same time I want to point out that I'm not on some hate-wagon rampage here. I love driving the game and probably spend too much time with it. I just think there are still a lot of issues to resolve, and to do so effectively it's important to call out things with their real names. A rose is a rose, manure is manure; but to grow and blossom, the rose needs the manure.

Drivers are just a single thing that's the easiest one to explain to people, that may not have the same knowledge about games as I do 🙂 

Anything on your computer could cause an issue later on, for one random reason or another. Like my F1 game longer accepts keyboard inputs while saving a setup. This started happening with no updates to the game, so it's something on my side. I'm just unsure what it may be, I'm guessing an update to the Microsoft IME that just breaks the compatibility with the game (...again?). Then there is TF2, which stopped working in fullscreen for unknown reasons, even though it ran completely fine just some hours earlier. Finally got it working after an hour of troubleshooting, and I'm not sure what caused that either. I only have guesses.

Those are two examples of errors being caused by dependencies with no idea what actually caused them. Those less experienced with troubleshooting would just blame the game, even if the game would be the same it was before you encountered anything! This is why having 20 clean machines that are running the exact same minimal software tends to be significantly better than anyone running the game on their computer... especially as competitive people tend to have different things installed to improve their performance, even if that would hurt the stability of their system.

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20 minutes ago, UP100 said:

Drivers are just a single thing that's the easiest one to explain to people, that may not have the same knowledge about games as I do 🙂 

Anything on your computer could cause an issue later on, for one random reason or another. Like my F1 game longer accepts keyboard inputs while saving a setup. This started happening with no updates to the game, so it's something on my side. I'm just unsure what it may be, I'm guessing an update to the Microsoft IME that just breaks the compatibility with the game (...again?). Then there is TF2, which stopped working in fullscreen for unknown reasons, even though it ran completely fine just some hours earlier. Finally got it working after an hour of troubleshooting, and I'm not sure what caused that either. I only have guesses.

Those are two examples of errors being caused by dependencies with no idea what actually caused them. Those less experienced with troubleshooting would just blame the game, even if the game would be the same it was before you encountered anything! This is why having 20 clean machines that are running the exact same minimal software tends to be significantly better than anyone running the game on their computer... especially as competitive people tend to have different things installed to improve their performance, even if that would hurt the stability of their system.

The lengths you go through my man. Even the e-sporters are apparently allowed to say the game is 'not ready'.
Not saying all you say is wrong or not true. but it's all beside the point.. the game IS in a horrible state and you pretending otherwise doesn't help anyone. 

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20 minutes ago, Bicarda said:

The lengths you go through my man. Even the e-sporters are apparently allowed to say the game is 'not ready'.
Not saying all you say is wrong or not true. but it's all beside the point.. the game IS in a horrible state and you pretending otherwise doesn't help anyone. 

I'm just here talking about the article and the choice of words in it, while also explaining what I mean with the stuff I've mentioned (as my original reply was just thoughts without explaining basically anything I've said). If you have something to say, you can join the conversation me and janbonator are having. You don't need to join in if the only thing you're going to do is accuse me of whatever. This isn't supposed to be some bloody argument, stop trying to make it one.

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14 minutes ago, UP100 said:

I'm just here talking about the article and the choice of words in it, while also explaining what I mean with the stuff I've mentioned (as my original reply was just thoughts without explaining basically anything I've said). If you have something to say, you can join the conversation me and janbonator are having. You don't need to join in if the only thing you're going to do is accuse me of whatever. This isn't supposed to be some bloody argument, stop trying to make it one.

I wasn't on about just the thing I quoted.
You just start by openly wondering if it isn't their own fault which only serves to distract from the issue at hand. the state of the game. 

No other game I know of has any of the issues that this game has, and yet everything you say about other variables and whatnot goes for any other game as well. 
So as I see it, you're just trying to distract with a totally irrelevant discussion.
Everything you say is true but it's NOT the reason why this game has 100x more problems than any other e-sport title.. or game in general.  

They had to change the weather to dry because the game isn't working
They had to disable rejoining because the game isn't working
The rpm glitch is still there. 
And that's just the things we saw from the heavily guided and censored stream.

It's very clear that almost all the issues regarding online come from the lack of dedicated servers and dependancy on steam, combined with just some big flaws in the game that have become increasingly bad over the last years. This all after the BIG PRIORITY that online was said to be this year. 

And when someone points this out you start rambling about how hard making games is in general and how many things can go wrong turning this into a discussion that is completely off-topic. 

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1 minute ago, Bicarda said:

I wasn't on about just the thing I quoted.
You just start by openly wondering if it isn't their own fault which only serves to distract from the issue at hand. the state of the game. 

No other game I know of has any of the issues that this game has, and yet everything you say about other variables and whatnot goes for any other game as well. 
So as I see it, you're just trying to distract with a totally irrelevant discussion.
Everything you say is true but it's NOT the reason why this game has 100x more problems than any other e-sport title.. or game in general.  

They had to change the weather to dry because the game isn't working
They had to disable rejoining because the game isn't working
The rpm glitch is still there. 
And that's just the things we saw from the heavily guided and censored stream.

It's very clear that almost all the issues regarding online come from the lack of dedicated servers and dependancy on steam, combined with just some big flaws in the game that have become increasingly bad over the last years. This all after the BIG PRIORITY that online was said to be this year. 

And when someone points this out you start rambling about how hard making games is in general and how many things can go wrong turning this into a discussion that is completely off-topic. 

Or you're just overcomplicating this. I'm just talking about the things I have something to say about. There is nothing for me to gain from complaining how bad the game is, there are already enough people saying that 😛 I was just wondering if the issues they encountered where on their side, instead of the game side, as the article didn't mention what issues they encountered. I feel like that's the only thing I'd realistically care about, as most of my replies on these forums are troubleshooting game crashes and the such.

Also, I think this is a definition of a personal argument. If you got more, send them through private messages.

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Fair enough. 
I thought you were finding excuses for the game but if i was wrong in that i apologize.

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