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is Bottas overpowered in your game?


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1 hour ago, Schneehase said:

Even if it was - why not simply swap the Bottas and Hamilton stats, or their cars stats (the ones we can not see on the driver stat "cards") and watch what happens?

Well who knows if they've done that? 😛 

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OK into season 3 now, only done Australia so far, Bottas has moved to Ferrari so will be able to compare him and Leclerc. Verstappen's overall rating is 93, Hamilton's 95 but Hamilton hasn't beaten him too often. Verstappen won the Championship in season 2 by 83 points and he has just won the first race of season 3. Seems to me that Hamilton is indeed under-powered rather than Bottas being overpowered. 

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12 hours ago, UP100 said:

It's sadly not really a black and white case 😕 It could very well just be the stats having a negative effect in the AI's driving, luck or player affecting it in some way. Most likely a combination of those if this would be the case.

Quite like having a less aggressive driver can cause the driver to perform poorly because it fails to drive around other drivers.

Even back in the day something like which driver was further from the player could have an effect on the drivers' performance.

I respect that its probably not as simple as that, but it should be pretty clear theres something wrong when a lot of players are reporting the same thing. I dont really get how the stats can be having a negative effect on his AI since they're the highest in the game. Verstappen, who has nearly identical stats doesnt have this problem so there must be something wrong on Hamilton AI where he isnt performing according to his stats.

The other thing that's been mentioned is that is it down to the awareness stat? Both Hamilton and especially Bottas have very questionable awareness scores.. Hamilton at 84 and Bottas at 99 is a huge difference, and I'm sure the vast majority would agree that they're flat out wrong in the first place. (Again, I raise the fact that Hamilton has had 2 minor bumps in the last two seasons, one of which caused his awareness stat to drop in an update whereas Bottas crashed out of qualifying twice, crashed out at Germany 2019 and spun seven times including hitting Ocon twice at Turkey yet has higher awareness than Hamilton nor did he lose any in an update? No consistency.)

I get that the performance updates are finished but both of them should really have their awareness stats fixed. Hamilton's awareness should be absolutely higher than Bottas'... 

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13 hours ago, Liaveil said:

but both of them should really have their awareness stats fixed


For future iterations of the "official" F1 games, I would wish for a few "jokers" that a player can use during career mode / myteam mode and the like. This is only my 2nd choice after the driver stats becoming completely modable, but if we cant have that due to license issues, why not let us earn a joker card during podium pass level up, which we could use later to correct mistakes like this, or boost a driver or a car / engine we particularly like, or even vice versa tone down a driver or a team whom we think of as overrated.

Taking this a step further as a game mechanic, drivers could get something like an "in form" / "underperforming" stat, which might trigger when they change teams, or when their teammate wins everything e.g., and this would allow to alter their careers a bit during 10 seasons of myteam / career mode. That way, playthroughs might differ some more and this could turn out interesting.

And yes, apart from "wishful thinking" like this, I d say it is about time to have a developer reply concerning Bottas performance meanwhile. Has this been checked / looked into? Can you share small parts of the code comparing Bottas / Hamilton so we can get an impression what happens under the hood of the game? It cant be that hard, have a few PCs simulate 10 seasons and look at the average outcome. Has this been done? Can we easily be proved wrong, though some of us are reporting that Bottas is overperforming in so many events during myteam mode / career mode?

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On 3/26/2021 at 7:30 AM, Liaveil said:

I respect that its probably not as simple as that, but it should be pretty clear theres something wrong when a lot of players are reporting the same thing. I dont really get how the stats can be having a negative effect on his AI since they're the highest in the game. Verstappen, who has nearly identical stats doesnt have this problem so there must be something wrong on Hamilton AI where he isnt performing according to his stats.

The other thing that's been mentioned is that is it down to the awareness stat? Both Hamilton and especially Bottas have very questionable awareness scores.. Hamilton at 84 and Bottas at 99 is a huge difference, and I'm sure the vast majority would agree that they're flat out wrong in the first place. (Again, I raise the fact that Hamilton has had 2 minor bumps in the last two seasons, one of which caused his awareness stat to drop in an update whereas Bottas crashed out of qualifying twice, crashed out at Germany 2019 and spun seven times including hitting Ocon twice at Turkey yet has higher awareness than Hamilton nor did he lose any in an update? No consistency.)

I get that the performance updates are finished but both of them should really have their awareness stats fixed. Hamilton's awareness should be absolutely higher than Bottas'... 

I think the simplest way I can explain is by starting out with this: The stats don't do a thing.

Now, what I mean by this is that the stats themselves do nothing. It's the functions that read these stats that determine how they should affect what. In general, we don't even know if the stats people are referencing actually do a thing

You could have one driver being faster than other when in simulation, while the opposite happening on track due to the way the stats are processed by different systems. Then there are stuff like luck (which is rather common explanation for things) and bugs (such as a midfield driver going on pole in older games!)

E: Also for comparison, every driver in F1 2011 has stats in these categories

  • Aggression
  • Control
  • Speed In
  • Speed Out
  • Virtual Performance
  • Wet Weather Ability

Then there are stats that are "global" for all driver as far as I've understood. Normally the stats are affected by the difficulty you've chosen and other such stuff. These are:

  • Bad Day Chance
  • Good Day Chance
  • Mechanical Failures
  • Mind Games Effectiveness
  • Mistakes
  • Reaction
  • Variance

I doubt that the amount of stats in play would've decreased over the years

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11 hours ago, UP100 said:

E: Also for comparison, every driver in F1 2011 has stats in these categories

 

11 hours ago, UP100 said:

I doubt that the amount of stats in play would've decreased over the years


Honestly, thank you for the effort, but with the F1 official game series, full price every year, I would expect a lot more has happened than just copy-paste over 9 years. This is just speculation, what we need is someone knowing the code, checking for once wether or not Bottas has the functions he should have, and if the same was valid for Hamilton. Check their cars functions as well. Done?

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Yeah.. Thank you for taking the time with the explanation but I honestly highly doubt they would be still using the exact same code as from 2011 especially considering the entire engine changed between 2014 and 2015.

But assuming that were the case, there's nothing stopping them from changing those stats that are working behind the scenes. The stats on the cards are obviously just visual but should be representing the stats that are actually in effect which is where the problem is. Bottas' are too high and Hamilton's too low. It's still just a matter of changing stats around whether it's the four or the ones listed.

That being said, there should definitely be more stat categories anyway. Four isn't enough to get a proper balance. Those stats you listed should all be seperate values on the drivers stat cards. On top of that, we should be able to change them ourselves in a driver editor of sorts, like you can with other sports games. Again, this would take some pressure off performance updates while we can personalise our own single player playthroughs

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@Liaveil @Schneehase Apparently my additional edit caused some misunderstanding. The F1 2011 part was just another point all-together I happened to talk about as it's something that was on my mind at the time 😅 Its intention was to mostly show how many different variables already affect the AI performance, and this is before any kind of processing of the variables as well!

I'm just trying to explain my view of why the statistics may not be "reversed", but instead there is something alternative causing the issue. I'm not here to argue that there isn't an issue... at least I'm trying not to, hahah. I think providing views is also a way to keep this thread somewhat active while also providing views from a programming perspective!

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15 hours ago, UP100 said:

I'm not here to argue that there isn't an issue... at least I'm trying not to


How about trying to relay this issue to the developers? Is that possible for you, can you get an answer for us that this will be looked into?

Mind you, @s00zster had been asked to do a bug report for this, which he did, but then this was merged with this topic again thereafter if I recall correctly.

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1 hour ago, Schneehase said:


How about trying to relay this issue to the developers? Is that possible for you, can you get an answer for us that this will be looked into?

Mind you, @s00zster had been asked to do a bug report for this, which he did, but then this was merged with this topic again thereafter if I recall correctly.

I mean I can always technically push things forward but it's something that I shouldn't really do aside from some exceptions. Will see what I can do in the near future. Though do note that I won't communicate anything back, as that's certainly something that should be done by staff cleared for comms

The bug report thing was a bit of a trip in communications between me and another mod. Apologies about the inconvenience

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I was thinking of reinstalling F1 2020. Does anyone know if they have resolved the Bottas issue yet? If I’m correct, driver stats aren’t always updates trough regular updates.. (I might be mistaken here) 

If not, is there an update for Bottas planned? @BarryBL the last time I’d played, it was absolutely ridiculous compared to his real life performance. 

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49 minutes ago, StanleyGoodspeed said:

the last time I’d played, it was absolutely ridiculous compared to his real life performance

I can confirm that this still is the case, at least in single player mode, i started a fresh "myteam" playthrough recently and Bottas secured the title 1 or 2 races before the season ended. If you want, I could dig out the whole stats of that championship. Thus, I highly doubt any action was taken by Codemasters, on the contrary, noone here does even acknowledge that this very problem does exist and would be under investigation. If I had to bet, I would say this will rather persist into the upcoming 2021 version of the game, than getting a fix in the current 2020 game.

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So, here are the stats from a full 2020 myteam season with 22 races. Driven, not simulated, 50% race lenght, full qualifying, 90% AI. Looking at this result sheet, do you spontanously think that Bottas is driving about as Hamilton, or not? Bottas achieved more wins (12) in this single season than in all his Mercedes career IRL, he did beat Lewis (who had 7 wins) by over 40 points. As a side remark, Ferrari is way too strong compared to IRL 2020 season results, and McLaren is way too weak. If Codemasters did swap Ferrari and McLaren ratings, then the season should end somewhat realistic...

You be the judge, here are the full statistics:

 

supermottas.jpg

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IDK, but I just started a 50% race career and Bottas had 2 mechanical failures and he also spun out in the begining of Sector 3 at Bahrain when he was behind me. So maybe a patch was made to adjust it. Hamilton and Verstappen are 1st/2nd in my career mode after 4 races. 

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What i find highly interesting: In 2020 we had 17 races IRL F1. Why not compare the IRL 2020 result on a points scored per race on average basis? Lets have a look:

  • Hamilton scored 347 points IRL, thus an average of 20 points per race. Now if we multiply that average with the number of races driven in the game, this gives: 22*20=440 points. But from the game, Lewis score is only 374 which is -15% off that value
  • Lets do the very same for Bottas, he scored 223 points IRL from 17 races, thus an average of 13 points per race. From 22 races like in the game this would give: 22*13=286 points. But from the game, Valtteri scores 418 points instead, which is +46% off that value
  • bottom line, while Hamiltons in game performance might seem roughly ok but a bit lowish, Bottas is nearly +50% over the top

Now lets look at some numbers for the teams:

  • Mercedes made nearly 34 points per race IRL, that would give: 22*34=748 points, but from the myteam playthrough they get 792 points, which is only 6% off so thats pretty accurate
  • Ferrari had less than 8 points per race IRL, so for 22 rounds this was: 22*8=176 points, from our example season they make a whopping 375 points though, which is +114% off
  • McLaren had nearly 12 points on average IRL, thus: 22*12=264 points, in the game version only 137 points, which is about -48% off

I might add that the performance of the team I ran as "myteam", March, was (on purpose) so utterly bad that it did not influence any of the numbers above. If you run a strong engine in myteam mode, have Schumacher as a 2nd driver and gave the "right" answers during your pre-season interviews, your results may differ a lot from mine.

Ok, I am not Einstein and I am calculating from a small sample. But what this tells me at first glance: the 3 values that are the most off of IRL numbers are - Ferrari too strong, McLaren too weak, and Bottas way stronger than Hamilton (the difference sum between them is roughly 60% off compared to RL). That said, Ferrari performance is way more off, than Bottas'. Probably, everyone likes Ferrari and it does not show as much until you put the numbers into perspective. Probably, Bottas has way less fans than Ferrari and his IRL underperformance hits all our eyes at first glance.

If I had a say, swap Hamilton / Bottas performance data as well as McLaren / Ferraris' and you will be as close as it gets to the official results. Its such a shame we do not have a performance editor for driver / engine / team values, so we could fiddle around with that ourselves, and if it was only to prove that you can actually get way closer to reality, if you only wanted to.

PS: I would be interested in more data from myteam season 1 playthroughs (2020), if you have any screenshots please post them here. This is from PC / steam version with the latest patch, by the way.

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I think you are overexaggerating this Bottas story. In some seasons he finishes in front of Hamilton, in others behind. It's not that in every career you need to have the exact same result with Hamilton winning all the races, Bottas always P2 and Verstappen P3 otherwise game would be extremely boring and not even realistic. Also, we are speaking about a driver who is in the best team and who was many times in pole and won many races last year. I mean, we are not speaking about Latifi being unstoppable and winning races and championships.

For me, the strangest thing in myteam career was that all of a sudden in the middle of Season 3 Albon stopped to go out in Q2 and to run in the midfield during the race (as he had done until then) and started to constantly be in the top 5, in front of Verstappen both in Qualy and Race, while Verstappen started to have Albon's results.

Other unexpected things which happened to me:

- in myteam season 1 my teammate Ghiotto scored a P4 in Austria and a P5 in Russia without taking advantage of any SC or VSC, just by being genuinely quick despite driving a midfield car and being a low rated driver. He finished most of the other races out of the top 10.

- in season 2 I had the best car and in season 3 an utterly dominant car but still my teammate, Magnussen, was alternating extremely dominant weekends, passing Q2 with Mediums, taking pole and winning by a huge margin, to disastrous ones even failing to score points.

To be honest, considering last year we had unexpected results like Alpha Tauri and Racing Point winning races I really have nothing to complain about this kind of variety.

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7 hours ago, Lenker said:

I think you are overexaggerating this Bottas story. In some seasons he finishes in front of Hamilton, in others behind. It's not that in every career you need to have the exact same result with Hamilton winning all the races, Bottas always P2 and Verstappen P3 otherwise game would be extremely boring and not even realistic. Also, we are speaking about a driver who is in the best team and who was many times in pole and won many races last year. I mean, we are not speaking about Latifi being unstoppable and winning races and championships.

For me, the strangest thing in myteam career was that all of a sudden in the middle of Season 3 Albon stopped to go out in Q2 and to run in the midfield during the race (as he had done until then) and started to constantly be in the top 5, in front of Verstappen both in Qualy and Race, while Verstappen started to have Albon's results.

Other unexpected things which happened to me:

- in myteam season 1 my teammate Ghiotto scored a P4 in Austria and a P5 in Russia without taking advantage of any SC or VSC, just by being genuinely quick despite driving a midfield car and being a low rated driver. He finished most of the other races out of the top 10.

- in season 2 I had the best car and in season 3 an utterly dominant car but still my teammate, Magnussen, was alternating extremely dominant weekends, passing Q2 with Mediums, taking pole and winning by a huge margin, to disastrous ones even failing to score points.

To be honest, considering last year we had unexpected results like Alpha Tauri and Racing Point winning races I really have nothing to complain about this kind of variety.

Nothing strange in Albons sudden improvement it was caused by Helmut Marko telling him he needed to improve quick or his seat would be filled by somebody else , What worries me is why , in my team is Toto Wuff allowing Bottas to out perform Hamilton in the first place who he clearly favours , this is what should be looked into , its all very well blaming the stats etc but its a problem that should be addressed by the Team principle and stop blaming Codemasters.

Bottas has obviously changed the numbers over on the cars while nobody was looking and this is why he is so quick. After what happened when Russell drove Hamiltons car last year and suddenly became a driver as good as Hamilton after being a useless one for so long at Williams then I'd say that it's the only explanation.

 

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13 hours ago, Lenker said:

It's not that in every career you need to have the exact same result with Hamilton winning all the races, Bottas always P2 and Verstappen P3 otherwise game would be extremely boring and not even realistic.

I wholeheartly agree with you, we have to look at this "on average" over many seasons or over the stats of many players, not on a per-race basis.

13 hours ago, Lenker said:

Also, we are speaking about a driver who is in the best team and who was many times in pole and won many races last year.

About the best team, I agree. About winning many race, I rather dont: Bottas won 2 (!) of 17 races, Austria and Russia. Now if he wins 12 races in my myteam playthrough, that is kinda popping up from the statistics.

13 hours ago, Lenker said:

To be honest, considering last year we had unexpected results like Alpha Tauri and Racing Point winning races I really have nothing to complain about this kind of variety.

That is absolutely in order, and Codemasters is doing their best, if that happens, times. If you look at my table posted above, Perez won a race (perfect) and Gasly had like 2 podiums, that is all fine - maybe Verstappen has some podiums less than I would expect, but this would not be something to argue about.

As for Bottas and exaggerating the issue, I drove 3 full and a few partly seasons of myteam mode, and Bottas always came out on top. Hamilton never did and that is why I do bite when other players are reporting they experience the same. Pardon me for doing a mathematical / serious approach other than just whining, I figured that would be helpful if any of the dev team might ever care reading this.

However I am afraid that in 2021 game it will be the very same, Hamilton underperforming and Vallteri over the top. I sincerely hope Codemasters proves me wrong (and I guess noboby does question that Bottas will underperform IRL, as he always does - as a sidenote, I can only hope Hamilton does not retire from F1 before he has to fend off Russell in an equal car, because we would loose the hell of a season like in Hamilton / Rosberg times). 

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I don’t get why there still isn’t a reaction from Codemasters/ @BarryBL.. 

Is it such a strange question? Don’t you see the problem? Or have I criticized the game too much to warrant a response?

imo it’s a valid question that many people have right now. Even a “no we’re not changing  Bottas” is better than being completely silent.

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Hi everyone,

Apologies for the delay on this, I wanted to get some thoughts from the developers on this topic. For F1 2020, we have completed our program in updating our driver statistics, and this will not happen further in the cycle for this current title. However, we have taken your feedback to the devs for any balancing needs for any future titles. 

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