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Professional Race Car Driver's Take


MBellRacing

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Hello all,

My name is Matt Bell and I'm a driver from the US. I used to LOVE Richard Burns Rally, and I knew Dirt Rally was going to be a great title, if they went back to good physics. Let me say, while the game looks and sounds remarkable, it is very frustrating at times. I understand that it is still a changing product, but let me vent here, a bit. I use rally sims as sportscar training since I'm unhappy with all the road racing titles. I use iRacing sometimes, but it is close enough and too far away from the real thing that I don't feel I benefit much. The rally games, which force you to react and think so much faster, I find very useful. Here are some things that make me crazy about Dirt Rally:

-No force feedback for the Fanatec wheel. This wheel, which is supposed to be pretty top-of-the-line, is not allowed to do what it is made to do. With the full range of wheel motion, I get just a small hint of FFB. That is unacceptable since Need for Speed had FFB in like 1998. 
-The random moments when I go from first by 10 seconds, to 17 seconds back. This happens mostly in Wales rally, randomly. It will all of a sudden just decide to inform me that, somehow, while driving EXACTLY the same, I've lost damn near half a second. Again-- and I say this modestly-- I DO THIS FOR A LIVING. I'm not a rally driver, but I have an okay feel for when I've drastically changed my driving style. 
-Landmines! I love when you are on line, for argument's sake, and touch the slightest incline in road with your INBOARD wheel, and the car flips through the air about 37 times. I am pretty close to recording these, because they are frustrating. 
-The Ford Sierra Cossy has a inoperative shift light. The red light never comes on, and the 3 yellows are on for half the usable rev range. WTF?
-The sound of spinning tires has nothing to do with actually spinning tires. This is noticeable in the RWD cars, mostly. It makes a racket to about 30mph, then goes dead quiet. What? How am I supposed to limit wheelspin when, apparently, my wheels have stopped spinning. 
-As far as I can tell, no way to tell the codriver to speak faster. Especially in sections of Monte Carlo Rally, the codriver gets behind and is telling me about a "Left Two" as I should be braking for it. Classy.
-The tarmac. All of it. It's terrible. 

That does it for now. I have not read any other reviews or complaints or fixes. I have just finished playing, got frustrated, threw my headphones, and decided to rant online. Basically the American dream. Let me know if anyone else feels this way. I know I was kicked off the iRacing forum for saying that driving a Riley Ford DP car sideways will not net you a faster time-- despite the fact that I had been driving the exact car in the sim, in real life during the discussion. Overall, I still love this game, it just gets frustrating when the competition heats up, and there's a disproportionate winning curve due to the above issues. I am very competitive, and when a game just decides to be a piece of sh*t and force me down the roster just because it thinks it's cute (or whatever), I tend to feel like it's just a high-tech version of Pacman.

-Matt Bell 
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Welcome Matt, nice to have a pro driver giving feedback,  hopefully the devs can take something from your observations as it is a constantly evolving rally race title and is sure to get better. There are some improvements slated for the next update coming this week.

I see you are part of the team racing the Bentley Continental GT3 at Bathurst next year :)  Love watching the GT's going over the Mountain ... Good luck mate.
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I won't comment on much of what you say, other than that you're probably right that the FFB defaults might need some work, but you can dial it in well (although not used a Fanatec here) with a bit of time.

You can change the co-driver to call 'early', which is essential, but it is still possible to outpace the notes, especially at Monte Carlo and Baumholder.

Flips are annoying, but I see it as being the alternative to having broken suspension because I clipped something. Yeah, it's not right, but it's like visual damage to me; I consider it game over.

Anyway, I just wanted to say good luck for Road America next weekend. CTSCC is one of my favourite series at the moment (and that's from a GT loving Brit who misses the ALMS) and the Mustang v Chevy battle is a lot of fun to follow.

Assuming you're THAT Matt Bell.
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Hmm, it sounds like you've played the game extensively enough to make a well-informed opinion (with ur racing background helps too).

Glad you have high hopes for the game and I think you'd find the sim community is generally pleased with it so far as well.

I mostly agree with your points about how the AI times calculated. I've never actually gotten 1st place in a single stage. I usually start the rally with a decent result and then get better, but my performance against the AI doesn't reflect that. So yeah, I'd like to know how the AI times come about, but at the same time, I don't want them to make the game less of a challenge, just more consistent.
Also, I think most other people agree that the tarmac surfaces don't feel quite right. I personally think the German stages feel pretty good, but Pikes Peak feels weird (although I obviously have no idea what a 700hp hill climb car feels like).

Edit: Just remembered you said you had no FFB! I feel ur pain. You need FFB, I can't imagine the driving feeling be right at all without it.
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Can't say anything about FFB since I'm playing with controller, but...

- AI inconsistency has been criticised a lot, maybe there'll be an update sometime. Remember, this is early access and far from finished.
- Your issues with "landmines", Sierra and spinning tyres... dunno I don't seem to have that.
- your co-driver can be set to call earlier in the preferences.
- tarmac physics are being worked on.
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Well it was all fun and games till someone posts my Wiki page! Anyway, I've been playing with it more, and I feel that part of the relative positions and times are based on some sort of online scalar. It gets noticeably more difficult to post top times after you play a bunch, and especially after shutting down the game and getting re-logged-in. 

Anyway, it's still a fun sim, but it is making me crazy. I also played more and tried to see what the deal was with wheelspin. I guaranty that it is screwed up. In a RWD car, and this is from experience, if you spin tires on gravel, the sound of the gravel hitting the underside of the car is proportionate to how fast the wheels are spinning. That is to say, if we are moving 5mph and our wheels are lit up at 50mph, there will be a massive noise. At 50mph, while in-- say-- 4th gear, we spin our wheels at 100mph. This will make a similar noise. It doesn't exist in the game. We are all used to hearing this, intrinsically. But the effect is missing over about 30mph. This makes it very difficult to limit wheelspin in a high-power car. 
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I am aware of the wheelspin and it is not overly instrusive, as in it does not grab my attention past knowing I have lost grip, and for that use it feels ok to me but I am no pro.

Was there a problem with seeing your wiki page posted  here ?  You are in a public arena after all and you obviously stated who you were to lend credibility to your opinion, which is appreciated, so is hardly surprising that people want to check your credentials as you did offer them.

Matt, if you watch some of the Dirt Rally videos that BigLee and Paul Coleman have put up you will see they are very keen for constructive feedback and more than committed to making this a great rally sim title.
www.twitch.tv/dirtgame

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@MBellRacing, if you can manage to acquire one of the Direct-Drive wheels, I highly recommend it if you want to take Sim-training to the next level.  I use an AccuForce with SimCommander4 providing the FFB for Dirt Rally and it is amazing how much better the FFB is over the common consumer-grade wheels.  I'm no racecar driver but, I have run some AutoCross laps in a 600hp Shelby Mustang and using the AF on the RX courses gets me close to the same feeling. :)
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@MBellRacing Awesome that you are sharing your inputs, being a non professional and new to all racing sims I find it great when real drivers give their opinion.  With how Codemasters have been handling this game, I see them appreciating your criticism and trying to make it better.  Thanks again.
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Mr Bell, how many hour have you spent playing dirt rally?

I think until you not reach the 50 hours barrier, you cannot have a global idea a "true" opinion of what is what. Why? experience shows you lots of partcular scenarios and circumstances; there, you can appreciate the lack/errors of physics... extrange behaviors.. etc.

Yes, I agree, there are some weak points to be fixed... or improved.

Again, spent a few more hours and you´ll see the beauty and the ugly feces of the game. And read the forum as much as you can/like... theres a lot of players feedback... polls... and your opinion can be appreciated

Regards
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Malyngo said:
I don't agree with this, that he should play more and then again give his input.
If a real driver is saying after even only 1h of play that it doesn't feel like the real thing, and this and that should be improved to make it feel more like real life, then those are absolute valid points, I think, no need to get more into the game.

He can definitely have an opinion on if the physics feel like the real thing or not.
I agree with that in theory, but keep in mind he's a street racing driver, not a rally driver. I'm sure he can contribute a lot, especially on tarmac physics and car behaviour, but I don't know how much he can say about a Metro 6R4's behaviour in Greek mountains.

His input is welcome, but I'd still like to hear actual rally drivers' opinions, especially on how it compares to RBR. Pretty much all I read about that is "it's not like RBR, so it's an unrealistic arcade game!" (and people who say pretty opposite things actually).
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Matt's a strong racer, and I'm a fan, I even have a Stevenson shirt from a few years back I got at Laguna Seca. I'm also a racer but never went beyond armature due to having another career, a game developer. 

Ironicly, racers providing feedback is hard to work with. I think Matt makes good points, but much like a driver needing to give technical feedback to their race engineer, a player needs a similar context to base their feedback to an entirely different kind of engineer. This is why others can openly disagree with his feedback due to it seeming subjective. 

Dirt Rally has a long way to go, but Matt not being a rally racer really isn't a criteria that minimizes his feedback. Us drivers have driven/raced everything and all speak a common language. It's race craft that separates us, not the platforms we race primarily. That being said, a cars dynamics are very different per disaplin but it's still a car with common limitations and that is the tools of the trade. Like some game developers being good at fps, but still know intimately other types of games... They also get type castes due to past exp, hell I was once told that I didn't have enough "current" rts exp for a gig despite being awarded a BAFTA for rts of the year in 06'... but that's a different topic.

Matt made a very good point about iRacing, it tries so hard to be real, it gets it on several levels, but the lack of "play" in their computational physics produces weird results when trying to make corrective actions. You get used to this over time, but it requires a massive time investment. 

Dirt has a very disconnected feel, like it's trying to be "playful" and serious at the same time. The sense of speed and sence of feel are way off. Tarmac just compounds this. It just doesn't feel natural, but despite this the dirt racing is fantastic fun... It just needs more attention to the input lining up with the sim and feedback. Going 80 in a cooper vs 120 in another car feels about the same. 

Thats the the core of the issue, until that's more calibrated there are too many ancillary parts that also seem to be problems but are rather symptoms more than core issues. 

As for using a sim for training, I have a pretty robust sim setup and play everything, yet when it comes to the game that had the most direct benefit to my racing? Forza 4. Shocker huh? Why? Because it allowed you to get more aggressive with cars at the limit, this is the place a real racer lives. A race car strives to be easy to drive, once it is, the driver has more margin to work with at the limit. That narrow limit to most, is quite broad to a real driver who spends so much time there. Forza 4 did a good job of making players feel they too can exist there with less wheel time and some call this arcade, But it's not. The issue with car games is linear computational physics and those physics ramping linear. That makes sence on paper, but does not translate to the real world. 

The best example is when Richard Hamond tried to drive an F1 car, despite all his own seat time, he couldn't get it around the first corner. The envelope of where that car needs to be driven is well beyond linear physics and doesn't even come to life until well beyond any normal drivers abilities and "pucker factor". 
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  • 7 months later...
Hello again, everyone. Thanks so much for a good discussion before. I have been enjoying the constant upgrades that the developing team has been adding to the game. When simulating, which I do a few times a week, I bounce between iRacing and DiRT. That said, I am once again VERY frustrated. The 2010's WRC cars are the worst simulated cars I have ever felt on paved surfaces-- they're not great on unpaved surfaces either and atrocious on snow. Every other car in the game that I have played has been within, I'd say, 75% of what "real" feels like or should feel like. I am once again struggling even to feel the brake sensitivity and the annoying snap between grip and an apparent loss of all gravity. I can do just fine, save a few mistakes, with the older bugeye Subaru WRC car, but can't make it a short stage without incident in the new Hyundai. It is awful. Really, really awful. As in: I have never struggled so much to keep up with the AI in a video game this much. 

I would agree with Lawndart, above, in saying that certain titles, like Forza 4/5 have nailed "driver feel". This doesn't have to break the realm of matching data and times, because other sims, like iRacing, can do both. I think the developers need to maybe get one of the current WRC drivers on the phone and ask them what they think. The fact that the replays of the cars look completely ridiculous should be clue enough that something needs to change. 

I was actually asked to leave the iRacing forums a while back because I was so outspoken about the error in their sim software. You see, that month I had driven two different Daytona Prototypes, one Dallara Ford and one Riley Ford. The latter was featured in the sim, and people were discussing how to drive it. It turned out, that hanging the back end out around every corner was the fastest way to turn a lap, and I couldn't get within 2 seconds of most people I was racing. This technique is literally the opposite of what is really necessary in either DP car. I commented on the forum and was surprised to see a mix of "it doesn't matter, it's just a game", and "you're a racer, you can't comment on simulators". Both these comments somehow eluded to the fact that I shouldn't be taken seriously because I was comparing a simulator to the actual car being simulated. I'll let that sink in... Keyword: SIMULATED

Another time I was told to "cool it", this time in person from one of the developers I know, was when I brought up the fact that I've never once seen an Acura P2 car bottom out and immediately spin out, as it did at the time in iRacing. I also mentioned that after talking to an HPD engineer, the biggest tuning tool is traction control, which iRacing didn't have in their version of the HPX. I was told by other iRacers that the simulator was there to simulate the driving experience, and that it shouldn't matter that the car doesn't have TCS-- learn to drive it without "it'll make you a better driver". I was completely confused by this. If you are going to take the time and sculpt and model every physical trait of an automobile, then claim to be a simulator, you really should NOT be leaving out things that experts say are the most important components, right? 

Back to DiRT. I watch the WRC rallies while working out. I love watching them. Yes, I know most of these rallies are mere bastardizations of the classic Group A and B days when drivers really didn't get a great chance to literally memorize all the stages (*cough* Latvala), but it is fun watching tiny cars bop their way through tight roads on all surfaces. My two favorites to watch are Germany and Sweden. I am a tarmac racer and I've always been fascinated by racing on the snow. Here's the problem: The DiRT simulator does not feel 50% like what I'm watching on the TV. Not even close. Not a simulation, anyway. This is frustrating for me because I watch these rallies, I have a sim setup, and I want to go try for myself. When I get the Fischer-Price version of WRC that has this magical amount of traction on snow and some sort of quantum estimation of what we call "grip" in the real world on tarmac, it sucks. Just sucks. 

I guess I'll go back to iRacing and only drive the the Group B and Group A cars in DiRT. They seem right. They feel good. The replays look similar to the videos I've watched and they make sense, physically, in my head. They don't surprise me, they seem as fast as their "real steel" counterparts, and the relative times to AI seem more correct. I really hope Codemasters is, or will be shortly talking to some real drivers, more than one preferably, and hearing their take on their work. Not to be discouraged, but so the virtual motorsport world can have a much closer representation to the real task of driving a modern WRC car. That's what this is really about, right? We want to feel what it's like. We want to pretend we're in the car, jamming in mixed conditions at the Monte. Hopefully that will soon be the case. /Rant


P.S.
So I don't sound like a total Debbie Downer, I would like to say that many of my original complaints have been addressed. The new FFB system is really, really good. I just bought a new Fanatec wheel base, and I have to turn everything DOWN now to feel right for a power-assisted car. I personally love all the different calculations that the system can allow. It really helps in feeling out the grip of the car-- in everything but the new WRC's....

Also, the landmines seem fewer and further between. The UK rally was where I saw these the most. The slightest touch of the inside tire to certain things like a small raised section of road, and the car would literally flip over. If anyone has actually seen this rally, they'd know most of those berms are piles of mud and grass, not rocks and boulders. I find the amount of "kick" from tagging certain objects much more acceptable now, maybe even a bit conservative. If I make a mistake, punish me with a broken car, but make sure the thing I hit is realistic. My only real complaint left are bushes that can somehow bring a 2800lb car to a dead stop from 100mph+, especially in Germany. That's a bit far fetched. 

The codriver pacenotes can be beat still, but they do feel a bit better. Monte Carlo is the biggest offender, especially with those "left 5 over crest tightens to 2" calls. Those are dumb because by the time he mentions the "2" part, you should have already been braking. That also happens a bit in Greece. Overall, I think the notes are improved and I don't get tripped up as much. They do a good job making it feel like a little guy is sitting next to you actually saying them. 99% of the time it is dead on, timed well, and in good rhythm. 

About my Wiki page-- I was not insulted, was just joking around. I should have made that clear! 
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In my opinion the WRC's both look and feel the way I'd expect them to. At least close to what I'd expect. I feel I can throw them around in a similar way to what the real boys do.
However, the real stars of the game are the RWD's on loose surface. This is the first time a game/sim actually gives me the feel like I'm driving a RWD car with proper tires that dig in to the surface underneath. It comes quite close to my own RWD competition experience.

Tarmac still isn't optimal and there are many things that can be improved upon in the future. Hopefully a new engine can sort some stuff out.

Just of curiosity, did you try SLRE? Some people say tarmac feels better there.
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WRC drivers themselves have said that the grip on snow and ice with proper studded tyres is immense, even surpassing the grip on gravel at times. It may not feel the way you expect it, but let us know when you've driven a world rally car on snow and ice yourself so that you can give some accurate feedback. Saying it sucks because it doesn't handle the way you'd expect it is a bit narrowminded.
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Very few circuit racing guys get any where near the pace of rally drivers when they tip there toes into the rallying sphere.I remember when i was competing when both Derek Warwick and Martin Brundle had a pop at the RAC rally and i was taking 5-6 secs a kilometer out of them.
And as @Porkhammer says 6mm studs on ice gives more grip than gravel tires on gravel and i have had the experience of both.
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In my honest opinion, DiRT Rally is a closer, more successful simulation of Rally driving, than iRacing is of Circuit racing.

iRacing/Richard Burns Rally etc, all seem to be viewed with Rose tinted Spectacles on.  They might have been ground-breaking in the past - but its 2016, & the bar has been raised.


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Hello again, everyone. Thanks so much for a good discussion before. I have been enjoying the constant upgrades that the developing team has been adding to the game. When simulating, which I do a few times a week, I bounce between iRacing and DiRT. That said, I am once again VERY frustrated. The 2010's WRC cars are the worst simulated cars I have ever felt on paved surfaces-- they're not great on unpaved surfaces either and atrocious on snow. Every other car in the game that I have played has been within, I'd say, 75% of what "real" feels like or should feel like. I am once again struggling even to feel the brake sensitivity and the annoying snap between grip and an apparent loss of all gravity. I can do just fine, save a few mistakes, with the older bugeye Subaru WRC car, but can't make it a short stage without incident in the new Hyundai. It is awful. Really, really awful. As in: I have never struggled so much to keep up with the AI in a video game this much. 

I would agree with Lawndart, above, in saying that certain titles, like Forza 4/5 have nailed "driver feel". This doesn't have to break the realm of matching data and times, because other sims, like iRacing, can do both. I think the developers need to maybe get one of the current WRC drivers on the phone and ask them what they think. The fact that the replays of the cars look completely ridiculous should be clue enough that something needs to change. 

I was actually asked to leave the iRacing forums a while back because I was so outspoken about the error in their sim software. You see, that month I had driven two different Daytona Prototypes, one Dallara Ford and one Riley Ford. The latter was featured in the sim, and people were discussing how to drive it. It turned out, that hanging the back end out around every corner was the fastest way to turn a lap, and I couldn't get within 2 seconds of most people I was racing. This technique is literally the opposite of what is really necessary in either DP car. I commented on the forum and was surprised to see a mix of "it doesn't matter, it's just a game", and "you're a racer, you can't comment on simulators". Both these comments somehow eluded to the fact that I shouldn't be taken seriously because I was comparing a simulator to the actual car being simulated. I'll let that sink in... Keyword: SIMULATED

Another time I was told to "cool it", this time in person from one of the developers I know, was when I brought up the fact that I've never once seen an Acura P2 car bottom out and immediately spin out, as it did at the time in iRacing. I also mentioned that after talking to an HPD engineer, the biggest tuning tool is traction control, which iRacing didn't have in their version of the HPX. I was told by other iRacers that the simulator was there to simulate the driving experience, and that it shouldn't matter that the car doesn't have TCS-- learn to drive it without "it'll make you a better driver". I was completely confused by this. If you are going to take the time and sculpt and model every physical trait of an automobile, then claim to be a simulator, you really should NOT be leaving out things that experts say are the most important components, right? 

Back to DiRT. I watch the WRC rallies while working out. I love watching them. Yes, I know most of these rallies are mere bastardizations of the classic Group A and B days when drivers really didn't get a great chance to literally memorize all the stages (*cough* Latvala), but it is fun watching tiny cars bop their way through tight roads on all surfaces. My two favorites to watch are Germany and Sweden. I am a tarmac racer and I've always been fascinated by racing on the snow. Here's the problem: The DiRT simulator does not feel 50% like what I'm watching on the TV. Not even close. Not a simulation, anyway. This is frustrating for me because I watch these rallies, I have a sim setup, and I want to go try for myself. When I get the Fischer-Price version of WRC that has this magical amount of traction on snow and some sort of quantum estimation of what we call "grip" in the real world on tarmac, it sucks. Just sucks. 

I guess I'll go back to iRacing and only drive the the Group B and Group A cars in DiRT. They seem right. They feel good. The replays look similar to the videos I've watched and they make sense, physically, in my head. They don't surprise me, they seem as fast as their "real steel" counterparts, and the relative times to AI seem more correct. I really hope Codemasters is, or will be shortly talking to some real drivers, more than one preferably, and hearing their take on their work. Not to be discouraged, but so the virtual motorsport world can have a much closer representation to the real task of driving a modern WRC car. That's what this is really about, right? We want to feel what it's like. We want to pretend we're in the car, jamming in mixed conditions at the Monte. Hopefully that will soon be the case. /Rant


P.S.
So I don't sound like a total Debbie Downer, I would like to say that many of my original complaints have been addressed. The new FFB system is really, really good. I just bought a new Fanatec wheel base, and I have to turn everything DOWN now to feel right for a power-assisted car. I personally love all the different calculations that the system can allow. It really helps in feeling out the grip of the car-- in everything but the new WRC's....

Also, the landmines seem fewer and further between. The UK rally was where I saw these the most. The slightest touch of the inside tire to certain things like a small raised section of road, and the car would literally flip over. If anyone has actually seen this rally, they'd know most of those berms are piles of mud and grass, not rocks and boulders. I find the amount of "kick" from tagging certain objects much more acceptable now, maybe even a bit conservative. If I make a mistake, punish me with a broken car, but make sure the thing I hit is realistic. My only real complaint left are bushes that can somehow bring a 2800lb car to a dead stop from 100mph+, especially in Germany. That's a bit far fetched. 

The codriver pacenotes can be beat still, but they do feel a bit better. Monte Carlo is the biggest offender, especially with those "left 5 over crest tightens to 2" calls. Those are dumb because by the time he mentions the "2" part, you should have already been braking. That also happens a bit in Greece. Overall, I think the notes are improved and I don't get tripped up as much. They do a good job making it feel like a little guy is sitting next to you actually saying them. 99% of the time it is dead on, timed well, and in good rhythm. 

About my Wiki page-- I was not insulted, was just joking around. I should have made that clear! 
Certain sim racing sites are populated by people who want to feel they are the elite. Running the best hardware, the best sim, against the best sim drivers in the world (and paying the most money for the privilige, after all, being a member of the elite costs). Any claim that the sim is not accurate or fails is striking at the very core ideology and from a commercial perspective it is very threatening too. So the very idea that a console (spit) game (spit) might actually be more realistic is probably not going to be met with a universal round of applause, especially if it comes from someone who has or claims credibility above the norm.

Whether dirt rally is realistic or not, I have no clue. One thing for sure though, it is probably quite easy to get real rally drivers to test it. Not maybe top level, but certainly high quality drivers. The problem is then translating the feedback they give into mathematics that can be universally applied, which is a much harder task.
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KevM said:
In my honest opinion, DiRT Rally is a closer, more successful simulation of Rally driving, than iRacing is of Circuit racing.

iRacing/Richard Burns Rally etc, all seem to be viewed with Rose tinted Spectacles on.  They might have been ground-breaking in the past - but its 2016, & the bar has been raised.



Wanna open up that statement bit more?

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never try and argue with sim anything.its worms everywhere.

this game is better than rbr which if you say that it can get very silly and often the " elite " :D iracing crew might have a dig

all are different games. just play what you enjoy. the thing is unless you have driven some of these cars you are just comparing against other games.

ive driven focus on the snow and ice ;)i can say this games done it pretty well.
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Kakkela said:
You dont have any rally experience and this game was tested by pro wrc drivers like kevin abbring, tom cave and many more.

Tarmac is still shit (even CM wasn't that happy with it) so that's kind of pointless argument ;)
Games with more than one surface usually just get one of them right, in this case I'm glad it's the loose stuff that feels good and not the other way around.
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