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Professional Race Car Driver's Take


MBellRacing

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So, what I'm getting from this is iRacing isn't worth it? The physics are definitely weird in some locations, and those damn bushes have been our plague since the beginning. Realistically they should rip out of the ground. But I agree with a lot of the other guys, I don't like to argue and worry too much about "Sims" because I know they're not, and I've also never driven those cars, and I know that the majority of other people haven't either, the ones that go spouting off how good or bad it is. While if you tell me that you've driven x car and it feels a certain way, absolutely. When you self admittedly haven't driven these cars, or on these surfaces I'm less inclined to pay as much attention. We will however treat you with respect and not tell you to leave like pretty much every other "sim" forum I've been on.
On a side note, what FFB settings do you use? I also have a Fanatec, but the FFB feels really weird.
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JZStudios said:
So, what I'm getting from this is iRacing isn't worth it? The physics are definitely weird in some locations, and those damn bushes have been our plague since the beginning. Realistically they should rip out of the ground. But I agree with a lot of the other guys, I don't like to argue and worry too much about "Sims" because I know they're not, and I've also never driven those cars, and I know that the majority of other people haven't either, the ones that go spouting off how good or bad it is. While if you tell me that you've driven x car and it feels a certain way, absolutely. When you self admittedly haven't driven these cars, or on these surfaces I'm less inclined to pay as much attention. We will however treat you with respect and not tell you to leave like pretty much every other "sim" forum I've been on.
On a side note, what FFB settings do you use? I also have a Fanatec, but the FFB feels really weird.

Most of the things he pointed out from iRacing aren't really reasons to not race there. There is some differences  between real life cars and iRacing cars sometimes, usually because they haven't updated car to current rules due to some licensing thing. And tire- and surfacemodel cause some weird behavior that forces to drive cars differently from real life.
iRacing is still to-go simulator if you are looking for pick-up competition against other people.
Assetto Corsa is good for casual cruising and hotlapping but pick-up racing is kind of PITA.
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Kakkela said:
JZStudios said:
So, what I'm getting from this is iRacing isn't worth it? The physics are definitely weird in some locations, and those damn bushes have been our plague since the beginning. Realistically they should rip out of the ground. But I agree with a lot of the other guys, I don't like to argue and worry too much about "Sims" because I know they're not, and I've also never driven those cars, and I know that the majority of other people haven't either, the ones that go spouting off how good or bad it is. While if you tell me that you've driven x car and it feels a certain way, absolutely. When you self admittedly haven't driven these cars, or on these surfaces I'm less inclined to pay as much attention. We will however treat you with respect and not tell you to leave like pretty much every other "sim" forum I've been on.
On a side note, what FFB settings do you use? I also have a Fanatec, but the FFB feels really weird.

Most of the things he pointed out from iRacing aren't really reasons to not race there. There is some differences  between real life cars and iRacing cars sometimes, usually because they haven't updated car to current rules due to some licensing thing. And tire- and surfacemodel cause some weird behavior that forces to drive cars differently from real life.
iRacing is still to-go simulator if you are looking for pick-up competition against other people.
Assetto Corsa is good for casual cruising and hotlapping but pick-up racing is kind of PITA.
Yeah, well I'm not actually that interested in online, and I'm sure not paying $600 for the iRacing content.
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You can take my input for what it is. I have raced on tarmac my entire career-- everything from street sedans to time attack AWD cars to GT cars to prototypes. I have played around on the snow, I've played in the dirt, but I would not say I am an expert. I am, however, someone that spends a very good deal of time trying to better my driving in my sport. I watch videos, I work on sims, I coach at driving schools, I coach privately, I scour over data to find hundredths of seconds. I can tell you, in my honest opinion, that the real WRC car is not as hopeless to drive as it is in this game. I watch videos constantly. Again, I workout to the WRC coverage and love watching in-car footage. To me, the current WRC cars appear to drive like under-powered, improved mechanical grip versions of the old early 2000's cars. The early 2000's cars in the DiRT feel about right, feel the most like my experience with AWD cars. 

The fact that I can't feel the brake at all in this sim, but can feel it quite well in titles like iRacing is proof that it IS possible to make it better. There's no FEEL in this title with some cars. The ones I'm complaining of most are RWD cars and the current WRC models. 

On a side note, I went to Japan and worked with some guys that have tested the current WRC cars. They said they are easy to drive. They are under-powered and have incredible suspension. The constant twitching around and wheel locking that I get in the game does not sound like that, nor does it look like the WRC coverage. These are peers of mine talking about it, we speak the same language. None of that language comes across in DiRT for that model car. 

On FFB. It still sucks on my Fanatec, to be honest. I thought it was better until I tried the tightrope walk called the VW Polo WRC at Finland. It is either so hopelessly strong that it is actually moving my hands on the wheel and causing feedback to become another input, or I can't feel anything. I'm talking about 1-2% changes in feedback options. I'm sure there's a happy medium somewhere between the Fanatec system and DiRT, but I'm struggling again. 

My whole point: I am not a rally driver, but I have a fair amount of experience, modestly. While I am no expert, I think it should be a litmus test that someone in the profession of hopping in vehicles and going fast can't do so in a simulator. This is not the case [anymore] with iRacing, SimRaceway, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, etc. What is the missing link? FEEL. I want to see ACTUAL WRC guys try these cars out. I want to see, after a couple hours of getting used to it, how they fair against the Master Class AI. I want to see what they complain about, what they like, what needs addressing. If Ogier hops in and can be wicked fast in a couple hours at Monte Carlo and doesn't have complaints where I do, then fine. I'm wrong. I'll never have hopes of driving a WRC car. If NOT, if he gets in and is locking brakes, hitting walls, has no proprioception of his car on the road, no sensation of grip (or lack thereof), and gets ahead of pace notes, then it's time to make some changes. 
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You can take my input for what it is. I have raced on tarmac my entire career-- everything from street sedans to time attack AWD cars to GT cars to prototypes. I have played around on the snow, I've played in the dirt, but I would not say I am an expert. I am, however, someone that spends a very good deal of time trying to better my driving in my sport. I watch videos, I work on sims, I coach at driving schools, I coach privately, I scour over data to find hundredths of seconds. I can tell you, in my honest opinion, that the real WRC car is not as hopeless to drive as it is in this game. I watch videos constantly. Again, I workout to the WRC coverage and love watching in-car footage. To me, the current WRC cars appear to drive like under-powered, improved mechanical grip versions of the old early 2000's cars. The early 2000's cars in the DiRT feel about right, feel the most like my experience with AWD cars. 

The fact that I can't feel the brake at all in this sim, but can feel it quite well in titles like iRacing is proof that it IS possible to make it better. There's no FEEL in this title with some cars. The ones I'm complaining of most are RWD cars and the current WRC models. 

On a side note, I went to Japan and worked with some guys that have tested the current WRC cars. They said they are easy to drive. They are under-powered and have incredible suspension. The constant twitching around and wheel locking that I get in the game does not sound like that, nor does it look like the WRC coverage. These are peers of mine talking about it, we speak the same language. None of that language comes across in DiRT for that model car. 

On FFB. It still sucks on my Fanatec, to be honest. I thought it was better until I tried the tightrope walk called the VW Polo WRC at Finland. It is either so hopelessly strong that it is actually moving my hands on the wheel and causing feedback to become another input, or I can't feel anything. I'm talking about 1-2% changes in feedback options. I'm sure there's a happy medium somewhere between the Fanatec system and DiRT, but I'm struggling again. 

My whole point: I am not a rally driver, but I have a fair amount of experience, modestly. While I am no expert, I think it should be a litmus test that someone in the profession of hopping in vehicles and going fast can't do so in a simulator. This is not the case [anymore] with iRacing, SimRaceway, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, etc. What is the missing link? FEEL. I want to see ACTUAL WRC guys try these cars out. I want to see, after a couple hours of getting used to it, how they fair against the Master Class AI. I want to see what they complain about, what they like, what needs addressing. If Ogier hops in and can be wicked fast in a couple hours at Monte Carlo and doesn't have complaints where I do, then fine. I'm wrong. I'll never have hopes of driving a WRC car. If NOT, if he gets in and is locking brakes, hitting walls, has no proprioception of his car on the road, no sensation of grip (or lack thereof), and gets ahead of pace notes, then it's time to make some changes. 
I cannot comment on the feel of the cars and how they compare with the game, because I've never driven a rally car before. But the thing I always bear in mind when forming criticisms of the game in my head, whether it be about visual technologies or gameplay features, is that this project was ran on a tighter budget than most driving sims.

Having experienced feedback such as the points you've put forward are important for future titles though, because I would like to think that the success of this project will be able to fund some newer technologies in the next installment from Codemasters. 

From a gamer perspective, DR is the best of its kind. I'm lead to believe that it is the best representation of the sport in regards to feel as well. However, we can't expect perfection from it because of the nature of the development. Realising this, the team are rightly commended for their great work under the circumstances. 

Making games is expensive business! 
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You can take my input for what it is. I have raced on tarmac my entire career-- everything from street sedans to time attack AWD cars to GT cars to prototypes. I have played around on the snow, I've played in the dirt, but I would not say I am an expert. I am, however, someone that spends a very good deal of time trying to better my driving in my sport. I watch videos, I work on sims, I coach at driving schools, I coach privately, I scour over data to find hundredths of seconds. I can tell you, in my honest opinion, that the real WRC car is not as hopeless to drive as it is in this game. I watch videos constantly. Again, I workout to the WRC coverage and love watching in-car footage. To me, the current WRC cars appear to drive like under-powered, improved mechanical grip versions of the old early 2000's cars. The early 2000's cars in the DiRT feel about right, feel the most like my experience with AWD cars. 

The fact that I can't feel the brake at all in this sim, but can feel it quite well in titles like iRacing is proof that it IS possible to make it better. There's no FEEL in this title with some cars. The ones I'm complaining of most are RWD cars and the current WRC models. 

On a side note, I went to Japan and worked with some guys that have tested the current WRC cars. They said they are easy to drive. They are under-powered and have incredible suspension. The constant twitching around and wheel locking that I get in the game does not sound like that, nor does it look like the WRC coverage. These are peers of mine talking about it, we speak the same language. None of that language comes across in DiRT for that model car. 

On FFB. It still sucks on my Fanatec, to be honest. I thought it was better until I tried the tightrope walk called the VW Polo WRC at Finland. It is either so hopelessly strong that it is actually moving my hands on the wheel and causing feedback to become another input, or I can't feel anything. I'm talking about 1-2% changes in feedback options. I'm sure there's a happy medium somewhere between the Fanatec system and DiRT, but I'm struggling again. 

My whole point: I am not a rally driver, but I have a fair amount of experience, modestly. While I am no expert, I think it should be a litmus test that someone in the profession of hopping in vehicles and going fast can't do so in a simulator. This is not the case [anymore] with iRacing, SimRaceway, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, etc. What is the missing link? FEEL. I want to see ACTUAL WRC guys try these cars out. I want to see, after a couple hours of getting used to it, how they fair against the Master Class AI. I want to see what they complain about, what they like, what needs addressing. If Ogier hops in and can be wicked fast in a couple hours at Monte Carlo and doesn't have complaints where I do, then fine. I'm wrong. I'll never have hopes of driving a WRC car. If NOT, if he gets in and is locking brakes, hitting walls, has no proprioception of his car on the road, no sensation of grip (or lack thereof), and gets ahead of pace notes, then it's time to make some changes. 
I cannot comment on the feel of the cars and how they compare with the game, because I've never driven a rally car before. But the thing I always bear in mind when forming criticisms of the game in my head, whether it be about visual technologies or gameplay features, is that this project was ran on a tighter budget than most driving sims.

Having experienced feedback such as the points you've put forward are important for future titles though, because I would like to think that the success of this project will be able to fund some newer technologies in the next installment from Codemasters. 

From a gamer perspective, DR is the best of its kind. I'm lead to believe that it is the best representation of the sport in regards to feel as well. However, we can't expect perfection from it because of the nature of the development. Realising this, the team are rightly commended for their great work under the circumstances. 

Making games is expensive business! 

Of course we can't really know truth without CM telling it to us, but Reiza and Kunos aren't working with huge budgets or dev teams either.
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Well, there is that video with Barnacules Nerdgasm where he gets his rally instructor to play it, and he liked it, but that was also back near initial EA release. I find it kind of odd that you don't like the Polo and i20, they're some of the only cars I can really drive well. There was also an event CM put on or went to where they had a bunch of rally drivers try it out.... for the rallycross though I believe. I don't buy in to simulators that much because unlike airplanes, cars are actually almost physically impossible to simulate, and the majority of people who play/create them haven't even driven the cars. Use your contacts to get in contact with some rally drivers. I too would be quite interested in seeing what actual drivers think of it. At the end of the day though, this game is still not a sim, it's a simcade at best. Currently anyways. The tarmac physics are near impossible, and the devs keep saying how they're not quite happy with it, and the physics we have now were originally unplanned and shoehorned in, so I'm hoping after this official release and they have a bit more time they'll work on a V3 for physics and FFB.
As to my FFB, it sort of works for some turns and give me proper resistance/wheel centering/alignment, but a lot of the times mid turn the FFB just cuts out completely. It's really weird.
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Having real drivers test it can mean so many different things, same drivers could think it just as a PR move to endorse some racing game.
Raceroom Racing Experience had list of drivers endorsing them from the beginning, but it was Kelvin van der Linde that took the initiative with the devs to get their physics and FFB to work properly and current game is totally different from the one those first drivers were endorsing.

I'm not saying devs aren't trying to get all the feedback they can, but sometimes drivers just aren't up to the task.

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Kakkela said:
Having real drivers test it can mean so many different things, same drivers could think it just as a PR move to endorse some racing game.
Raceroom Racing Experience had list of drivers endorsing them from the beginning, but it was Kelvin van der Linde that took the initiative with the devs to get their physics and FFB to work properly and current game is totally different from the one those first drivers were endorsing.

I'm not saying devs aren't trying to get all the feedback they can, but sometimes drivers just aren't up to the task.

Yeah, but still, almost no one plays R3E.
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My whole point: I am not a rally driver, but I have a fair amount of experience, modestly. While I am no expert, I think it should be a litmus test that someone in the profession of hopping in vehicles and going fast can't do so in a simulator. This is not the case [anymore] with iRacing, SimRaceway, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, etc. What is the missing link? FEEL. I want to see ACTUAL WRC guys try these cars out. 
IMHO as good as modern sims being good at both real world and sim isn't a given although the basic techniques should be the same, the feedback mechanisms are different. My 300bhp 4WD road car is closer to a WRC car than my sim racing rig regardless of what software it is running because the amount of feedback through the chassis is infinitely greater than can be achieved in a static home simulator, even at relatively low speeds. How we equate sim to real requires a significant degree of correlation and seems a bit dependent upon how we are wired. For example Michael Schumacher did little testing in the simulator as he suffered from simulator sickness where even a multi million $ F1 simulator didn't feel like real world driving to him, so there was a mismatch between what he saw and what he felt.

I have introduced drivers with 30 years driving experience to sims who simply couldn't drive the sim. Not talking driving at 10/10ths but simply unable to keep it on track at a slowish pace. I would have no doubts they could drive a real race car on a track at a reasonable pace without falling off every other corner.  There are still plenty of real world professional drivers who regard sims as video games and are completely different to real world driving and we have experienced sim racers who can detect the slightest setup change as well as any real world driver would. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a selected WRC driver sucks at sim racing, devoid of the expected feedback from the real car.

Sim racers have been saying that the tarmac stages in DiRT Rally are a weakness pretty much from the outset even without driving the actual cars being simulated.
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JZStudios said:
Kakkela said:
Having real drivers test it can mean so many different things, same drivers could think it just as a PR move to endorse some racing game.
Raceroom Racing Experience had list of drivers endorsing them from the beginning, but it was Kelvin van der Linde that took the initiative with the devs to get their physics and FFB to work properly and current game is totally different from the one those first drivers were endorsing.

I'm not saying devs aren't trying to get all the feedback they can, but sometimes drivers just aren't up to the task.

Yeah, but still, almost no one plays R3E.

It's not directly because of faults in physics or anything like that. At first it was trying to compete with iRacing that had already established it's position and now that it's improved everybody have judged it already.
They just were at the wrong place in wrong time.
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Kakkela said:
JZStudios said:
Kakkela said:
Having real drivers test it can mean so many different things, same drivers could think it just as a PR move to endorse some racing game.
Raceroom Racing Experience had list of drivers endorsing them from the beginning, but it was Kelvin van der Linde that took the initiative with the devs to get their physics and FFB to work properly and current game is totally different from the one those first drivers were endorsing.

I'm not saying devs aren't trying to get all the feedback they can, but sometimes drivers just aren't up to the task.

Yeah, but still, almost no one plays R3E.

It's not directly because of faults in physics or anything like that. At first it was trying to compete with iRacing that had already established it's position and now that it's improved everybody have judged it already.
They just were at the wrong place in wrong time.
With a terrible pricing format.
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JZStudios said:
Kakkela said:
JZStudios said:
Kakkela said:
Having real drivers test it can mean so many different things, same drivers could think it just as a PR move to endorse some racing game.
Raceroom Racing Experience had list of drivers endorsing them from the beginning, but it was Kelvin van der Linde that took the initiative with the devs to get their physics and FFB to work properly and current game is totally different from the one those first drivers were endorsing.

I'm not saying devs aren't trying to get all the feedback they can, but sometimes drivers just aren't up to the task.

Yeah, but still, almost no one plays R3E.

It's not directly because of faults in physics or anything like that. At first it was trying to compete with iRacing that had already established it's position and now that it's improved everybody have judged it already.
They just were at the wrong place in wrong time.
With a terrible pricing format.

Compared to it's main competitor, it's actually cheaper pricing model.  ;)
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gheeD said:
If i recall he was only top of one daily and that was because he basically founded the shortcuts on bidno moorland.
yes as much as he may be valid his time was slow. i was gunna do a compare video avg i did run 20 secs quicker without the cut !. as said before real life rally driver or not sorry in games mean nothing. dirt 3 had a challenge with another rally driver yep beat that also. after a couple of goes.

that was  a codemasters challenge with chris imgram

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNTgkCwtRk8

games are games.real life is real.








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Kakkela said:
JZStudios said:
Kakkela said:
Having real drivers test it can mean so many different things, same drivers could think it just as a PR move to endorse some racing game.
Raceroom Racing Experience had list of drivers endorsing them from the beginning, but it was Kelvin van der Linde that took the initiative with the devs to get their physics and FFB to work properly and current game is totally different from the one those first drivers were endorsing.

I'm not saying devs aren't trying to get all the feedback they can, but sometimes drivers just aren't up to the task.

Yeah, but still, almost no one plays R3E.

It's not directly because of faults in physics or anything like that. At first it was trying to compete with iRacing that had already established it's position and now that it's improved everybody have judged it already.
They just were at the wrong place in wrong time.
It's a shame there are so few online. All in all the racing experience in R3E is really really good. I drove some yesterday after the new big patch and it felt awesome.
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You can take my input for what it is. I have raced on tarmac my entire career-- everything from street sedans to time attack AWD cars to GT cars to prototypes. I have played around on the snow, I've played in the dirt, but I would not say I am an expert. I am, however, someone that spends a very good deal of time trying to better my driving in my sport. I watch videos, I work on sims, I coach at driving schools, I coach privately, I scour over data to find hundredths of seconds. I can tell you, in my honest opinion, that the real WRC car is not as hopeless to drive as it is in this game. I watch videos constantly. Again, I workout to the WRC coverage and love watching in-car footage. To me, the current WRC cars appear to drive like under-powered, improved mechanical grip versions of the old early 2000's cars. The early 2000's cars in the DiRT feel about right, feel the most like my experience with AWD cars. 

The fact that I can't feel the brake at all in this sim, but can feel it quite well in titles like iRacing is proof that it IS possible to make it better. There's no FEEL in this title with some cars. The ones I'm complaining of most are RWD cars and the current WRC models. 

On a side note, I went to Japan and worked with some guys that have tested the current WRC cars. They said they are easy to drive. They are under-powered and have incredible suspension. The constant twitching around and wheel locking that I get in the game does not sound like that, nor does it look like the WRC coverage. These are peers of mine talking about it, we speak the same language. None of that language comes across in DiRT for that model car. 

On FFB. It still sucks on my Fanatec, to be honest. I thought it was better until I tried the tightrope walk called the VW Polo WRC at Finland. It is either so hopelessly strong that it is actually moving my hands on the wheel and causing feedback to become another input, or I can't feel anything. I'm talking about 1-2% changes in feedback options. I'm sure there's a happy medium somewhere between the Fanatec system and DiRT, but I'm struggling again. 

My whole point: I am not a rally driver, but I have a fair amount of experience, modestly. While I am no expert, I think it should be a litmus test that someone in the profession of hopping in vehicles and going fast can't do so in a simulator. This is not the case [anymore] with iRacing, SimRaceway, rFactor, Richard Burns Rally, etc. What is the missing link? FEEL. I want to see ACTUAL WRC guys try these cars out. I want to see, after a couple hours of getting used to it, how they fair against the Master Class AI. I want to see what they complain about, what they like, what needs addressing. If Ogier hops in and can be wicked fast in a couple hours at Monte Carlo and doesn't have complaints where I do, then fine. I'm wrong. I'll never have hopes of driving a WRC car. If NOT, if he gets in and is locking brakes, hitting walls, has no proprioception of his car on the road, no sensation of grip (or lack thereof), and gets ahead of pace notes, then it's time to make some changes. 
I think what stands out for me in your post is that you haven't made one quantitative point about how the game performance does not match real life performance. Now don't get me wrong, that's a hard thing to do. But if you are going to criticize the model or indeed improve it that's something you have to do.

I think this is the biggest issue for devs, in respect that the internet is full of people who will say its bad or it doesn't work properly, but precious few exist who will say exactly why this is the case and give the devs something to work on. TBF part of the issue is that often devs will not fully release their models for various reasons, but a lot of it is drivers not being able to articulate their "feelings" into parameters that race engineers/devs can work with. This is the difference these days that a top class
driver has - not only to be able to drive the car fast, but to be able to explain to the team how in parameters they can work with they can make the car faster.

I think in most cases it pays to be under ambitious as well in the changes you can expect to achieve. If you can focus in on one particular parameter/behaviour and do that to death and demonstrate quantitatively that is it wrong, or more correctly not approximating real life well with hard evidence and data to back it up then you have something people can work with.

From codies I would like to see more stuff like telemetry (I know it would hurt guys, you'd not be able to hide anything) but this is a necessary step if they are going to get good feedback on car performance. I'd liken it to that experience they had with the FFB guy. At first it would be painful, but its a necessary step in utilising the crowd and improving the game performance. 


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For me every sim out there, good and bad (IMHO) has quite a significant variance in my perceived quality of different vehicles. Maybe it just suits personal driving style but I do think there is more to it than that. Some simply work better than others.

I think race/rally sims are great and a lot has been achieved to create a "feels like driving" sensation. That said I think there is a long way to go before any developer has a generic model that fits all vehicles just by plugging in the right parameters. That potential for improvement I find quite exciting, so much more to come with more time, computer power, techniques, knowledge etc.

My litmus test is that I find I need to acclimatise jumping from sim to sim to retrain my brain to the physics model. I never have to acclimatise jumping from real car to sim and vice versa. The sensations are very similar but not the same, yet...
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KevM said:
In my honest opinion, DiRT Rally is a closer, more successful simulation of Rally driving, than iRacing is of Circuit racing.

iRacing/Richard Burns Rally etc, all seem to be viewed with Rose tinted Spectacles on.  They might have been ground-breaking in the past - but its 2016, & the bar has been raised.


I agree with this guy ^

Also I keep ending up under seconds behind your leaderboard times on xbox one ;) haha. They're just first runs of mine but I think you are pretty good at DiRT Rally. 

I'm Chr0m3xHedgeHog on xbox, excuse the fact that my name has MoDz in it, I got famous from console modding / reverse engineering, have always taken my sims seriously though.
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Chr0m3xMoDz said:
Also I keep ending up under seconds behind your leaderboard times on xbox one ;) haha. They're just first runs of mine but I think you are pretty good at DiRT Rally. 

I'm Chr0m3xHedgeHog on xbox, excuse the fact that my name has MoDz in it, I got famous from console modding / reverse engineering, have always taken my sims seriously though.
You have beat me on a fair few stages too, its great competition! :)
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