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Contacts under SC/VSC give random 5s time penalty for "severe collision"

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1.       A detailed description of the issue. Please include any error codes here. 

In multiplayer (Unranked lobbies), under Safety Car or Virtual Safety Car, whenever you make contact with someone whether it's a very small contact or a major one, the game awards you (and, most of the time, the driver you hit aswell) a 5s time penalty for "Severe collision".

2.       What version of the game you are using (Shown on the start screen in the bottom left corner of the screen) 

Latest version, v1.16. But it's been there since the release.

3.       Game-mode? 

Unraked lobby, multiplayer.

4.       What are your replication numbers? Minimum test attempts are 4. Please also add EXACT replication steps for us to try too. 

This glitch happens every time you hit someone under Safety Car or Virtual Safety Car, without fail.

5.       What troubleshooting have you attempted? Please always try to attempt to fix the issue 

A player can't fix that issue.

6.       What peripherals are you are using (gamepad, wheel make & model etc)

I'm using a G29 wheel but I don't think it's related to the gear as anyone can get that bug, regardless of their peripherals.

7.       Any screenshots or video of the issue? If the video is long, please include a timestamp for when the issue appears. 

Here's one example but he can easily find at least 20 other videos:
- View 1: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WHZTL5enNk
- View 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3j41jw1ULAE&feature=youtu.be

(Note: in that example, one of the drivers (the one behind) got damage. This does not have any effect on the glitch)

@BarryBL Make sure to send this to the devs and keep up the good work. Racing on this game has been very enjoyable so far 😉

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I mean it's a safety car, everyone should be driving slowly and carefully and not touching eachother. The game awards 5 second penalties when you touch another car under the safety car. It's not really a glitch although it can be quite a harsh penalty sometimes, point is there is no excuse for people to crash into eachother under the safety car.

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So the replication steps aren't possible because the only way to display this bug is to deliberately crash into another vehicle under SC. 

Have to agree with @zampa you have one job. Not to hit the car in front whilst maintaining tyre temps.

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17 hours ago, zampa said:

I mean it's a safety car, everyone should be driving slowly and carefully and not touching eachother. The game awards 5 second penalties when you touch another car under the safety car. It's not really a glitch although it can be quite a harsh penalty sometimes, point is there is no excuse for people to crash into eachother under the safety car.

The problem is when you as a driver behind the safety car keep distance to others, but the car behind you doesn’t. Even the slightest touch from behind will give you both a 5 second penalty, while only the driver behind is at fault. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, steviejay69 said:

So the replication steps aren't possible because the only way to display this bug is to deliberately crash into another vehicle under SC. 

Have to agree with @zampa you have one job. Not to hit the car in front whilst maintaining tyre temps.

As outlined by @BarryB, the problem is when you keep a good distance to other cars in front but when the driver behind you doesn't. In that case, only the driver behind you is at fault but both drivers get a 5s penalty which is unfair for obvious reasons. Sometimes, only the driver behind gets a penalty which is the correct thing, but that's not how things go most of the time.

EDIT: I'd like to add that you don't need to "deliberately crash" into another car to get a penalty. In league racing, on SC restart, drivers are extremely close to one another and contact can happen, even though it's absolutely not intentional.

Edited by Cripton

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Just now, Cripton said:

As outlined by @BarryB, the problem is when you keep a good distance to other cars in front but when the driver behind you doesn't. In that case, only the driver behind you is at fault but both drivers get a 5s penalty which is unfair for obvious reasons. Sometimes, only the driver behind gets a penalty which is the correct thing, but that's not how things go most of the time.

If this is a collision detection logic issue, please document it as such then. It's not a VSC/SC specific issue. It's about penalty awarding not being aportioned to the driver at fault. 

But in the instance the driver in front suddenly slows causing the driver behind to hit them (a 'brake check' or not keeping to delta, not maintaining a gap correctly, not following the rules at restarts by slowing after accelerating) then you can see why the game might penalise both.

So as you can see, with the issues on broken deltas this is a more complex issue. But without weight of evidence, it can't be forwarded.

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Under the SC, any contact between two cars will result into a 5 second penalty for both cars, regardless of who’s at fault. Please tell me how we can address this issue properly.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, steviejay69 said:

If this is a collision detection logic issue, please document it as such then. It's not a VSC/SC specific issue. It's about penalty awarding not being aportioned to the driver at fault. 

But in the instance the driver in front suddenly slows causing the driver behind to hit them (a 'brake check' or not keeping to delta, not maintaining a gap correctly, not following the rules at restarts by slowing after accelerating) then you can see why the game might penalise both.

So as you can see, with the issues on broken deltas this is a more complex issue. But without weight of evidence, it can't be forwarded.

I edited the my answer above so if you haven't read it, please check.

I got your point. It's probably a "collision detection logic issue but given this happens so often under SC & VSC, I thought it was only relevant in those scenarios. 

Even though I don't think a penalty should be awarded to any of the 2 drivers for contact under VSC/SC (unless it's very significant impact), I can understand why the game is coded so the person to blame for the contact is punished. In the footage I provided above, you can see that the driver in front didn't do anything wrong. Yet, he got awarded a penalty.

Also, should I repost the problem with a more relevant title or can you just forward it ?

Edited by Cripton

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Hi @Cripton,

Thanks for your report. This is something under discussion with the devs to revise implementation for future titles.

However, to play devils advocate here, I agree with half of the design in that there should be a penalty should someone hit into another under Safety Car at any speeds. The reason for this is that the SC is deployed because the track is considered unsafe. Should someone cause an accident while the track is already unsafe, a penalty makes a lot of sense as, in reality, they would be not just endangering their fellow drivers, but possibly the SC driver, marshals on track collecting debris etc. Therefore, a incident under SC, regardless of severity, should be treated with a penalty in my opinion.

The known issue is where the penalty is assigned to. In real life, we would have the luxury of replays and camera angles and discussions with the teams to ensure the penalty is allocated correctly. However, the game doesn't have these varying sources of information available (some racers may have a commentator and a engineer available), so it has to be a immediate decision. The 2 scenarios that are most common are:

  1.  Driver behind drives into the driver directly in front, damaging/losing their front wing, for example.
  2.  Driver in front stops harshly on track, making the driver in front damage/lose their front wing. 

In both instances, it becomes quite difficult for a game to decide who was actually at fault in a instant. Especially if some players don't play with the correct racing spirit, and use Option 2 as a way to handicap the opposition. Most players who have raced online and experienced the SC have heard/been a part of this happening. 

It is something under discussion, and we are always looking for ways to improve the SC experience, and to make sure the right penalty is handed out to the right person as often as possible. As with any sport (think VAR in football as the obvious example, or the awarding of a penalty in FIFA as a gaming example), the 'right' decision is always subjective to the players in question.

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9 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

Hi @Cripton,

Thanks for your report. This is something under discussion with the devs to revise implementation for future titles.

However, to play devils advocate here, I agree with half of the design in that there should be a penalty should someone hit into another under Safety Car at any speeds. The reason for this is that the SC is deployed because the track is considered unsafe. Should someone cause an accident while the track is already unsafe, a penalty makes a lot of sense as, in reality, they would be not just endangering their fellow drivers, but possibly the SC driver, marshals on track collecting debris etc. Therefore, a incident under SC, regardless of severity, should be treated with a penalty in my opinion.

The known issue is where the penalty is assigned to. In real life, we would have the luxury of replays and camera angles and discussions with the teams to ensure the penalty is allocated correctly. However, the game doesn't have these options, so it has to be a immediate decision. The 2 scenarios that are most common are:

  1.  Driver behind drives into the driver directly in front, damaging/losing their front wing, for example.
  2.  Driver in front stops harshly on track, making the driver in front damage/lose their front wing. 

In both instances, it becomes quite difficult for a game to decide who was actually at fault in a instant. Especially if some players don't play with the correct racing spirit, and use Option 2 as a way to handicap the opposition. Most players who have raced online and experienced the SC have heard/been a part of this happening. 

It is something under discussion, and we are always looking for ways to improve the SC experience, and to make sure the right penalty is handed out to the right person as often as possible. As with any sport (think VAR in football as the obvious example, or the awarding of a penalty in FIFA as a gaming example), the 'right' decision is always subjective to the players in question.

Thanks for your detailed answer @BarryBL.

If you believe a penalty should be awarded regardless of severity, so be it, I totally understand. I think it's the right thing to do for the people racing in unraked lobbies without much purpose I may say.

However, for people like me, racing in "third-party leagues" (leagues run by an organisation that uses unranked lobbies), it becomes a bit of an issue because of the competitiveness. I do agree that contact should never happen under SC or VSC but in those league races, it's extremely competitive and when the SC ends, drivers will be extremely close to one another trying to get a good restart and hoping to gain a position from it. So, sometimes, extremely small contact will happen. 

In my opinions, there are 2 options to solve this issue:
1) Create an option that allows you to get rid of that type of penalties. I know there's an already existing option that allows you to remove all penalties except Corner Cutting or all rules altogether but that isn't a solution. I have played a bit of Gran Turismo Sport some time ago and when you create a lobby, you can disable "contact penalties". So why not do something similar?
2) Improve the algorithm the game uses to decide who was at fault. It's something very complex to do for the reasons you pointed out. There are so many scenarios you have to taken into consideration when making such algorithm hence why I'm not gonna explain the ideas I have in mind in this message. But I'd be happy to help if you need people to make a system or test it.

I'm running (along with a small team) a league called PremierSimGL (or PSGL). It's currently the biggest league on Playstation with 12 divisions and 300 drivers. We also have a PC division filled with esports drivers (Jarno Opmeer, Simon Weigang, Bari Boroumand, Nicolas Longuet to name a few). I'm also head steward for that league so I've got plenty of experience racing online and I'd be very happy to use it to improve the online experience for all kind of players.

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Posted (edited)

I second everything @Criptonmentioned. I’m part of a team running a league (RLH) and recognize the issues mentioned. Although just 7 divisions and not 12 like PSRL, our team has quite some experience with online races and all issues that come into place with it. If we can help out with thinking about solutions and and improving the game and experience we are happy to help out.

Edited by BarryB
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@Cripton There are a lot of us who race in leagues. I sympathise with your PoV, and thank you for not being incendiary and for taking my comment as it was meant.

I do think it best if you expand on your ideas and they could at least be put forward as a suggestion.

The best way is consensus and by documenting how many users this impacts upon. I've done exactly the same role (Stewarding) and it's clear from discussion among those leagues that opinion varies quite a lot!

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3 minutes ago, BarryB said:

I second everything @Criptonmentioned. I also run a league (RLH) and recognize the issues mentioned. Although just 7 divisions and not 12 like PSRL, our team has quite some experience with online races and all issues that come into place with it. If we can help out with thinking about solutions and and improving the game and experience we are happy to help out.

Crossposted, but I say the same to you. Let's have the ideas out in the public forum so everyone can decide upon whether the proposals are shared widely (at least a majority vote).

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3 minutes ago, steviejay69 said:

@Cripton There are a lot of us who race in leagues. I sympathise with your PoV, and thank you for not being incendiary and for taking my comment as it was meant.

I do think it best if you expand on your ideas and they could at least be put forward as a suggestion.

The best way is consensus and by documenting how many users this impacts upon. I've done exactly the same role (Stewarding) and it's clear from discussion among those leagues that opinion varies quite a lot!

@steviejay69 No worries 🙂 My goal is to help you guys to improve the user experience and not to blame either you guys or the game for the things I don't agree on.

I'm happy to share my opinions as well as the ones of the community I manage. So where should I do that ? Here ? In another section ?

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Posted (edited)

What you would need, is a min distance from your driver in front, so you cannot hit him or her, until the (V)SC get in the pit

Wasn't there something like that in previous games? Were you could not pass the driver in front of you? Some kind of Pit Limiter under (V)SC condition? 

Edited by GioProductions

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8 minutes ago, steviejay69 said:

@Cripton There are a lot of us who race in leagues. I sympathise with your PoV, and thank you for not being incendiary and for taking my comment as it was meant.

I do think it best if you expand on your ideas and they could at least be put forward as a suggestion.

The best way is consensus and by documenting how many users this impacts upon. I've done exactly the same role (Stewarding) and it's clear from discussion among those leagues that opinion varies quite a lot!

Agreed with @steviejay69, and also thank the users for the respectful discussion on a topic that has, in the past, has provoked more 'provocative' responses. I'll add this link and discussion to the existing reports, and see what the designers think on the suggested changes.

As you can imagine, ensuring getting these decisions right every time is very difficult to implement that would satisfy all parties. Much like any penalising system in sport or gaming (or anything to be honest), the people invested will always have different points of view, be slightly bias and will feel wronged. Finding the balance for this is the key for sure should we implement a change in the future, as going in the other direction of rarely adding penalties or being very lenient creates a whole new host of issues.

As a 4 season league 'veteran' now (still without a win, cheers Baku) I prefer to encourage players to be cautious under the SC rather than not. You'd rather have players around you who you know and trust to respect the rules rather than others at a restart for sure. 

@GioProductions to answer your point, this is technically possible in the game. If you all paused the game for example, this would happen. However, the issue with this (and any sort of limiter) is that the player isn't really controlling the car under SC, messing with immersion. Also, if there's a minimum distance, there has to be a maximum distance (with a ghost) too or else more games could be played and exploited under SC.

 

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3 minutes ago, GioProductions said:

What you would need, is a min distance from your driver in front, so you cannot hit him or her.

Was there something like that in previous games? Were you could not pass the driver in front of you? Some kind of Pit Limiter under (V)SC condition? 

People don't like it 🙂 

Every year we hear the call for taking the grid slot manually. It is a bit of an immersion breaker! 

Wasn't there a bit of an issue in 2019 with the lead car at a SC restart not being able to accelerate properly after the SC line? (I wasn't lucky enough to be at the head of the snake enough if any times in MP 🙂 ) I think that kind of thing is an idea in principle but a) it would encourage people to hold the throttle to the stop during the AI control (because that is what you are talking about), b) it might interfere with players ability to manage tyre temps, c) it might affect pit lane entry and exit as you are allowed to race after and before the relevant SC lines as long as you observe the pit limit.

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I think discussions like these could easily be avoided entirely by just offering more options to the players, especially to people running a league (with it's own rules most likely) on their own.
More options never hurt.

So while it's cool to think about different implementations a of given ruleset, why not give the players the power to choose between certain rulesets?
 

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Posted (edited)

The power cut the drivers recieve needs to be removed too. When the SC goes into the pits everyones engines are cut and everyone gets given full traction control regardless of what assists you use. This stops you from being able to control the car properly and also removes the ability to spin up/heat up the rear tyres. It also causes issues at the restart, if you are in 2nd gear the car will not pull away because it is being throttled by the game. When safety car re enters the pit late there should be no speed limiting or extra assists added to the cars. 

 @BarryBL

Edited by zampa
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1 minute ago, LSKone said:

I think discussions like these could easily be avoided entirely by just offering more options to the players, especially to people running a league (with it's own rules most likely) on their own.
More options never hurt.

So while it's cool to think about different implementations a of given ruleset, why not give the players the power to choose between certain rulesets?
 

I don't think it's really options that are needed as a first resort. Yes, if you run or play in leagues, game features are turned off as a workaround for the sake of playability.

But, if the game's logic were implemented correctly (or to an agreeable standard) then the league runners wouldn't turn any options off!

The biggies are;

a) incorrect awarding of drive-thrus or time penalties

b) track limits detection

c) safety car logic

pick your own order.

Because

a) collision detection

b) time deltas

c) AI control

are not implemented well enough.

At least we aren't turning Dynamic weather off (2012) considering splitting lobbies into pad and wheel users, etc. But yeah I would rather see a poll or at least a user championed suggestion.

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1 minute ago, steviejay69 said:

People don't like it 🙂 

Every year we hear the call for taking the grid slot manually. It is a bit of an immersion breaker! 

Wasn't there a bit of an issue in 2019 with the lead car at a SC restart not being able to accelerate properly after the SC line? (I wasn't lucky enough to be at the head of the snake enough if any times in MP 🙂 ) I think that kind of thing is an idea in principle but a) it would encourage people to hold the throttle to the stop during the AI control (because that is what you are talking about), b) it might interfere with players ability to manage tyre temps, c) it might affect pit lane entry and exit as you are allowed to race after and before the relevant SC lines as long as you observe the pit limit.

I agree with you with the "VSC & SC speed limit". It would certainly cause more issues than actual benefits. The cons you've cited are the first things you can think about but the more you think about it, the more cons you'll find.

So I think the best option is to simply have an option to disable "contact penalties". I'm obviously not a game developer but I reckon it would be quite simple to add in a future patch (or for F1 2021 given we're a couple months away from its release already). If you were to do that, I think it would be useful to go a step further and have a penalty/rules customizer. For example, when you create a lobby, you can choose what rules have to be applied and what rules shouldn't.

As said above, you can also improve how the game decides who's at fault but it's easier said than done. I have potential ideas for this but it would make the post very long.

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8 minutes ago, zampa said:

The power cut the drivers recieve needs to be removed too. When the SC goes into the pits everyones engines are cut and everyone gets given full traction control regardless of what assists you use. This stops you from being able to control the car properly and also removes the ability to spin up/heat up the rear tyres. It also causes issues at the restart, if you are in 2nd gear the car will not pull away because it is being throttled by the game. When safety car re enters the pit late there should be no speed limiting or extra assists added to the cars. 

 @BarryBL

I've seen this happens but it shouldn't be considered as a issue in my opinion. When the SC is about to come in, if you let a big enough gap between you (given you're the leader) and the Safety Car, the game will never interfere with your inputs. It only happens when you're too close to the Safety Car. In that case, the game will slow you down so you can respect the official procedure.

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