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Contacts under SC/VSC give random 5s time penalty for "severe collision"

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I'm not saying we shouldn't have the options to turn things off but the other issue is needing to have the game logic working correctly. Or you are actually saying that we just don't implement rules into the game! What's the point of an off switch if off is the preferred position?

The reverse is true. Turn on the options you like!

Interesting question I'd hope to have answered by a simple thought - do you think that when designing the game, the devs designed the game with assists and then turned them off?

It's a rhetorical question - of course the game is designed to work no assists and assists are added. They may be set on as default (for a beginner) but would be turned off.

The ruleset is designed the same way - rules are designed to work but I think the option to turn off was added under user request. Some users will want to play by the rules. Primary troubleshooting would be to make sure the rules work as closely to realism as possible.

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10 minutes ago, steviejay69 said:

But, if the game's logic were implemented correctly (or to an agreeable standard) then the league runners wouldn't turn any options off! 

I don't think this is about whether a certain logic is correct or not, but about how a certain aspect is processed and then presented.
Difficult to explain in english for me, so I elaborate:
Classic: SC comes out again, I brake waay to soon into the corner and you drive into me = 5 seconds for both. You know it.
But how about actually controlling the outcome of a race incident to the players liking? Wouldn't it be nice if we could say that penalties under SC are limited to a warning, instead of an instant 5 second punch with a visit to the pitlane for one of the guys (most likely)? Should be no problem in an unranked game no? In my book, that would solve a lot of biggies that you have just identified.

Let's face reality for a moment: F1 games have never had a problem with actually adding new stuff to the game, but fixing existing systems, ehh, you know how it is. So adding additional options for your multiplayer lobby seems(!) like the way to go if you ask me.

But, generally speaking, I wholeheartedly agree with you: actually fixing the fundamentals is something that should be considered at the very least.

 

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Posted (edited)

I agree with that @LSKone said despite maybe not choosing the best example. Adding more options will never be a bad thing. In this case, it would actually fix the problem. BUT, that's not how things work. You don't fix issues by making your way around them hence why I also agree with @steviejay69: the fundamentals have to work correctly. It simply doesn't make sense when the "Off" position as the preferred one.

The ideal fix in our case would be to correct the algorithm so the game doesn't award a penalty to a player that doesn't deserve it AND the option to turn off that kind of penalties. So you get the best of the options.

Edited by Cripton
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19 minutes ago, LSKone said:

I don't think this is about whether a certain logic is correct or not, but about how a certain aspect is processed and then presented.
Difficult to explain in english for me, so I elaborate:
Classic: SC comes out again, I brake waay to soon into the corner and you drive into me = 5 seconds for both. You know it.
But how about actually controlling the outcome of a race incident to the players liking? Wouldn't it be nice if we could say that penalties under SC are limited to a warning, instead of an instant 5 second punch with a visit to the pitlane for one of the guys (most likely)? Should be no problem in an unranked game no? In my book, that would solve a lot of biggies that you have just identified. 

Let's face reality for a moment: F1 games have never had a problem with actually adding new stuff to the game, but fixing existing systems, ehh, you know how it is. So adding additional options for your multiplayer lobby seems(!) like the way to go if you ask me.

But, generally speaking, I wholeheartedly agree with you: actually fixing the fundamentals is something that should be considered at the very least.

 

The counter point to this would be that users could start to exploit this. At this exact moment in time, our damage model doesn't incorporate rear wing damage as everyone knows. 

Although 90% of the players who cause an incident will be a mistake (I've drove into the back of people under SC like most), there is always a 10% who will consider intentionally 'brake checking' the player in front, pleading innocence or ignorance, and wrecking the users race behind them. We're all pretty experienced racers in this thread, and I'm pretty confident we've all seen/experienced this first-hand

Its about finding a balance between a fair penalty system for all, and a system that is exploit-proof so users can ruin others races. But again, excellent discussion 👍

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

The counter point to this would be that, is that users could start to exploit this. At this exact moment in time, our damage model doesn't incorporate rear wing damage as everyone knows. 

Although 90% of the players who cause an incident will be a mistake (I've drove into the back of people under SC like most), there is always a 10% who will consider intentionally 'brake checking' the player in front, pleading innocence or ignorance, and wrecking the users race behind them. We're all pretty experienced racers in this thread, and I'm pretty confident we've all seen/experienced this first-hand

Its about finding a balance between a fair penalty system for all, and a system that is exploit-proof so users can ruin others races. But again, excellent discussion 👍

Yeah I see where you are going with this and you are right, a system like that must be exploit-proof.
But I would advocate that a system does not have to be exploit-proof at all times, especially when talking about unranked lobbies or leagues, where proper race etiquette is still maintained by most and everyone is informed about the used ruleset.

Edited by LSKone

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1 minute ago, BarryBL said:

The counter point to this would be that users could start to exploit this. At this exact moment in time, our damage model doesn't incorporate rear wing damage as everyone knows. 

Although 90% of the players who cause an incident will be a mistake (I've drove into the back of people under SC like most), there is always a 10% who will consider intentionally 'brake checking' the player in front, pleading innocence or ignorance, and wrecking the users race behind them. We're all pretty experienced racers in this thread, and I'm pretty confident we've all seen/experienced this first-hand

Its about finding a balance between a fair penalty system for all, and a system that is exploit-proof so users can ruin others races. But again, excellent discussion 👍

You've mentioned the lack of rear wing damage. Is it planned to implement it into the damage model or to modify it substantially ?

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So I've been digging in the 'Lobby Options' (I don't do this enough to be honest), but there is a Rules & Flags options where it is limited to 'Corner Cutting Only'. Wouldn't this take avoiding action on this problem for now?

Would be interesting to see how this performs as a lobby option in the retail multiplayer, as I don't think I've used it before myself. One for a Joker round maybe @LSKone and @steviejay69

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

So I've been digging in the 'Lobby Options' (I don't do this enough to be honest), but there is a Rules & Flags options where it is limited to 'Corner Cutting Only'. Wouldn't this take avoiding action on this problem for now?

Would be interesting to see how this performs as a lobby option in the retail multiplayer, as I don't think I've used it before myself. One for a Joker round maybe @LSKone and @steviejay69

 

I've tried that in the past but not really. Many rules are very important and shouldn't turned off (which would be the case if you put the rules to Corner Cutting only). The best example is that people can jump the start without being punished if the rules are set to corner cutting only. 

Edited by Cripton

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1 minute ago, LSKone said:

I don't think this is about whether a certain logic is correct or not, but about how a certain aspect is processed and then presented.
Difficult to explain in english for me, so I elaborate:
Classic: SC comes out again, I brake waay to soon into the corner and you drive into me = 5 seconds for both. You know it.
But how about actually controlling the outcome of a race incident to the players liking? Wouldn't it be nice if we could say that penalties under SC are limited to a warning, instead of an instant 5 second punch with a visit to the pitlane for one of the guys (most likely)? Should be no problem in an unranked game no? In my book, that would solve a lot of biggies that you have just identified.

Let's face reality for a moment: F1 games have never had a problem with actually adding new stuff to the game, but fixing existing systems, ehh, you know how it is. So adding additional options for your multiplayer lobby seems(!) like the way to go if you ask me.

But, generally speaking, I wholeheartedly agree with you: actually fixing the fundamentals is something that should be considered at the very least.
 

It's an idea with some merit, but I'm not sure it's workable given time constraints.

"The Stewards will deliver a verdict after the race."

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4 minutes ago, Cripton said:

I've tried that in the past but not really. Many rules are very important and shouldn't turned off (which would be the case if you put the rules to Corner Cutting only). The best example is that people can jump the start without being punished if the rules are set to corner cutting only.  

Ahhh, good point. Didn't know that (as I've never played on that setting), but that's a bit of a killer. That should really be a part of the game regardless. 

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17 minutes ago, BarryBL said:

So I've been digging in the 'Lobby Options' (I don't do this enough to be honest), but there is a Rules & Flags options where it is limited to 'Corner Cutting Only'. Wouldn't this take avoiding action on this problem for now?

Would be interesting to see how this performs as a lobby option in the retail multiplayer, as I don't think I've used it before myself. One for a Joker round maybe @LSKone and @steviejay69

 

You need to stop running preview code unless you share the key 😉

'Corner cutting only' means no pens for anything except track limits and they are bad enough. 

It's just like real life. Drivers take every advantage until they're penalised for it 🙂 Gamers are no exception, play the game or game the game.

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1 hour ago, BarryBL said:

Ahhh, good point. Didn't know that (as I've never played on that setting), but that's a bit of a killer. That should really be a part of the game regardless. 

So I just did a test race with my friends and we tested the 'corner-cut only' setting.
Basically, it becomes Mario Kart but with F1 cars. The things that you can do, especially under V/SC, wow, the potential is limitless (my favourite was brake-testing the SC to a complete halt, good laugh!) !

Maybe it's not such a good idea to use that setting after all.. 😨

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17 minutes ago, LSKone said:

So I just did a test race with my friends and we tested the 'corner-cut only' setting.
Basically, it becomes Mario Kart but with F1 cars. The things that you can do, especially under V/SC, wow, the potential is limitless (my favourite was brake-testing the SC to a complete halt, good laugh!) !

Maybe it's not such a good idea to use that setting after all.. 😨

That was my experience too.

I've been thinking on this one, and I've added the suggestion of a additional option in 'Rules & Flags' to cater for League players who run with a Steward. I think maybe having a 'Rules and Flags' set that instead/as well as 'Corner Cutting Only', we had 'All but Contact' would be useful for Leagues.

That way, the incidents would still come up on the Race Director, but for more serious Leagues, users can have a human Race Director/Steward make the decision which would be beneficial short (avoid the OP issue) & long term (where players can discuss the cases and come to a decision). Thoughts?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, BarryBL said:

That was my experience too.

I've been thinking on this one, and I've added the suggestion of a additional option in 'Rules & Flags' to cater for League players who run with a Steward. I think maybe having a 'Rules and Flags' set that instead/as well as 'Corner Cutting Only', we had 'All but Contact' would be useful for Leagues.

That way, the incidents would still come up on the Race Director, but for more serious Leagues, users can have a human Race Director/Steward make the decision which would be beneficial short (avoid the OP issue) & long term (where players can discuss the cases and come to a decision). Thoughts?

so being able to have a rules setting which has all the rules applied except anything to do with contact would be perfect for leagues for sure, most leagues have a post race penalty/stewards system.

in the past when i have league raced i spun and was stationary waiting for cars to go past and i got hit, i received a 5 second penalty and the car that hit me got no penalty so a "all but contact" setting for rules would have prevented this and me swearing for 5 minutes after :classic_laugh:

i do understand why the contact/penalty system is how it is i.e mostly equal blame with both drivers getting warning or penalty as a similar system is employed in iracing for example. it is very hard to work out how if 1 driver is wholly to blame etc even if you look at replays post race too.  

also a separate suggestion @BarryBL i know we have the highlights system but in future games is their a possibility have added the ability to save full race replays which allow us to view them like with highlights and clip small sections? this would be extremely helpful especially if people are not able to record their POV in league races and also content creators for example.    
 

Edited by cearp8858
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3 hours ago, BarryBL said:

That was my experience too.

I've been thinking on this one, and I've added the suggestion of a additional option in 'Rules & Flags' to cater for League players who run with a Steward. I think maybe having a 'Rules and Flags' set that instead/as well as 'Corner Cutting Only', we had 'All but Contact' would be useful for Leagues.

That way, the incidents would still come up on the Race Director, but for more serious Leagues, users can have a human Race Director/Steward make the decision which would be beneficial short (avoid the OP issue) & long term (where players can discuss the cases and come to a decision). Thoughts?

That's a great idea! Pretty much every league that's run by an organisation has a steward or a team of steward. It would be a great feature as the game wouldn't interfere with what the stewards want to do. I'm not sure if you want to make that settings available to in-game leagues only but it should definitely be available in unranked lobbies as that's what most (if not all) leagues do.

Keeping all contacts on the race direction is useful feature as well albeit not absolutely needed.

The entire community would welcome it with open arms for sure ^^

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17 hours ago, BarryBL said:

The counter point to this would be that users could start to exploit this. At this exact moment in time, our damage model doesn't incorporate rear wing damage as everyone knows. 

Although 90% of the players who cause an incident will be a mistake (I've drove into the back of people under SC like most), there is always a 10% who will consider intentionally 'brake checking' the player in front, pleading innocence or ignorance, and wrecking the users race behind them. We're all pretty experienced racers in this thread, and I'm pretty confident we've all seen/experienced this first-hand

Its about finding a balance between a fair penalty system for all, and a system that is exploit-proof so users can ruin others races. But again, excellent discussion 👍

Would bringing in an improved damage model help alleviate some of this dirty driving? Some diffuser/rear wing damage would be a good deterrent for those brake testing people. Then maybe the penalty system can be adjusted with the knowledge that no one benefits from being a massive chuff hole. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, DillarF1 said:

Would bringing in an improved damage model help alleviate some of this dirty driving? Some diffuser/rear wing damage would be a good deterrent for those brake testing people. Then maybe the penalty system can be adjusted with the knowledge that no one benefits from being a massive chuff hole. 

Dirty drivers don't care if they get damaged tho, and as i mentioned the penalty system is a equal blame system because it can be too difficult to determine who is wholly to blame or if its just a racing incident.

 

even bringing in a safety rating for ranked races hasn't helped because what happens is drivers who intentionally wreck or drive dirty also affect the other drivers SR which means the clean driver minding his own business ends up stuck with the dirty drivers with no real way to actually gain the rating back 

Edited by cearp8858

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Had a read through the different options mentioned here and if we’re realistic having the code adjusted so the game recognizes correctly who’s at fault for contact is probably too difficult. So in my opinion the best solution is:

In the lobby settings (unranked, which are used for online leagues) have more options to turn on/off specific penalties. Have a toggle for all possible penalties in game, so the host/organizer can decide for their race/league what should be penalized or not. That way if a certain penalty is not always given correctly, like under the (V)SC, we can turn that penalty off and don’t have race results influenced as much by wrong penalties anymore.

 

 

 

 

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On 3/16/2021 at 3:01 PM, Cripton said:

I've seen this happens but it shouldn't be considered as a issue in my opinion. When the SC is about to come in, if you let a big enough gap between you (given you're the leader) and the Safety Car, the game will never interfere with your inputs. It only happens when you're too close to the Safety Car. In that case, the game will slow you down so you can respect the official procedure.

That's not the case, you get the power cut and assists even if you're in P20 well away from the safety car. Its unnessecary after spending 3 laps driving slowly and carefully.

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