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DiRT Rally Mid Term Report


justbiglee

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Oh, one big minus to add:
-"save and quit" works as a restart stage on online events, making the challenge of doing safe but fast runs for multiple stages diminish. Please remove that option ASAP (so you can only save and quit before a stage starts).
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                The Good
  • DAT SOUND!
  • Handling on gravel, esp RWD
  • Every car feels unique
  • Quality of stages
  • The commitment from the team
                 The Bad
  • Replay system. It just takes immersion out with switching cameras. The look/sound of this game really deserves a true broadcast style typ of replay. There are camera angles out there that looks/sounds awesome, they just need to be more of that.
  • Repetition of stages. The stages are great, but we need more of them for each rally. Two more unique long stages for each rally would suffice.
  • Tarmac handling prob need some tweaking, It's too hard to get a high powered RWD car to wheelspin taking off from the line. Note that I don't want this to be a drifting game, I know we are using competition tires and  there is a great amount of grip.
  • Exit a stage gives you another go at all online events but the daily. This makes it a hot lap mode as you can do it again and again until you are satisfied. This takes away the " should I go for it and risk it all or be cautios and make it to the finish" thinking.
  • I want to use the clutch with sequential as I don't have an H-shifter atm. There is a need to kick the clutch out of hairpins now and then.
  • The repair system needs an overhaul. It just does not make any sense repaiting parts 1% here, 2% there. The older Colin McRae games did this better. 
  • I really would love to see 1:1 steering animation, but I'm fine without it as I mainly use dash cam.
  • The ability to move the camera around(AC style) to find the perfect fit for you.
  • Please add the actual stage length in the stage info. Long/Sprint is just silly in my opinion.
  • More info on cars, specially tourque range. Info on gearbox/seq/h-pattern/stick/paddles would also be nice if you want to match your sim gear properly.

It looks like I really dislike this game as i have more bad than good, but honestly I could go on and on on the good list because as a whole the game is utter brilliant :)
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First of all without a doubt DiRT Rally is a huge succes already, the way Codemasters came back to rally is superb! A very big thumbs up for all the developers and teams from Codemasters who where involved in this immensely project! The way how you guys dealt with this from the beginning untill now of this project is very professional!

Well ofcourse everybody got an other point of view at the look how things should be, but first I will give some feedback what I think you guys are doing well/ what gets u extra credits from me!

 'What are we doing well?': 

- The communication/ community involvement
The communciation is the best what I had so far with a game studio! 
Looking back at the old days and forum, we already saw that after the Colin McRae Rally stages Codemasters already listen to the fan base ( for example request of night stages, staggerd starts etc etc..),
but now in this Early Acces its even better!
For example the fans/gamers notice some small bugg, or think the FFB should be tweeked, and with in 2 months there is a patch and its all fixed and getting to the right direction!
This is really valuable for me!  Because this means (as you already mention) that Codemasters want to make the best rally game ever!

- The focus
The focus at the 3 original rally disciplines is the best choice for the rally game!
In this way you can get accurate to the sport! Rally and RallyCross is perfect to combine, specially because some casual gamers will miss the contact sport in rallying, and thats what you get with rallycross, even rallycross is great fun to race against each other friends!
Although to be honest Hillclimb wasnt really needed for me, but this is also (with Dakar) a big part of the Rally family. There is no need to look for other racing sports to add to these 3 orginal rally disciplines!

- The Graphics, Sound , Physics, Handeling
Well without a doubt the game looks, amazing, the details in the rallycars, the rallycars, the sound of the cars, the surroundings. Its perfect! But to be honest we know already for a while that Codemasters makes amazing games.
In my eyes the physics get better and better! But its already a really good basic, specially because you can feel like if you are driving in a real gravel rally stage that you have to cut through the first layer of dirt/gravel before u get to the harder layer where you have more grip also a big +! 

- Rallystages
The way how the rally stage are made are perfect! Specially because Monte Carlo, Wales, Germany match too the real life WRC rally stages! This makes the stages really challenging a big + !

 'What could we do better?'

To be honest I have no commentary about the graphics, sounds, physics nor handeling.
I do have a few point what I think is important to change / take a look at .
- The right Itneraries
First of all the Itneraries of a rally, I already put up a thread as you can see in the link but let me explain here, I'm writing this suggestion to improve the rally to show that beside simulation handeling the itineraies are also importment for a rally game.
Because u can not fit a light pod just before a stage, u have to do that at the service, and that means somethimes if u have 1 light and one dark stage that you have to drive the light stage with a little bit more care , u can read all in that post.
- Service options / Types of tires
In the same thread above i also discribed that i miss the option to choose the righ tires.
- I miss the staggerd rally starts
- Stage, would like more stages
- rally school where you can learn how to drive.

But what really could be better is the carreer mode / championship.
I already discribed this a few times, u can  read everything in this thread the Ultimate DiRT team and in this thread The ultimate WRC rallyteam Its important to take a good look at it because now the carreer mode really get bored soon :(
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I´m not repeating as all was already said...

This is enough feedback to finnish the game like champs. Customers will gone nuts with this superb game.

You will find some impossible ideas/improvement to commit, but, just focus in what really matters...the most demanded.

Keep the good working!!

You must be proud of how are you dealing with this early access, this should be an example.  <3

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DoriT said:
Sorry to just talk about the negative points, but I think there is problems with your physics. I was told this was a sim, so I was very disappointed to drive it and see that the no.1 most important thing about a sim, the car handling physics and FFB, is a very low level compared to sims I'm used to playing, like Assetto Corsa and Live for Speed.

The RX cars are an improvement, but still this does not feel like a sim to drive. I never feel like I'm driving a rally car while playing Dirt rally. The car handling is not true to life. 
There's a lot more wrong than just what I describe, but I think this is the easiest fault for me to describe here. It's very evident you have traction control of some sort present in the RWD cars even though I have all that stuff turned off in the menus. It's probably present in the other cars too, but it's more difficult to tell with 4WD. 

RWD (I tested the Kadett most) cars don't just get magic grip from nowhere, if the wheels are spinning they don't only spin to a certain speed above the car speed then start gripping, in reality they will keep spinning and will spin more if I press the throttle more until the speed of the car starts to catch up with the speed the wheels are spinning at. 

The cars don't seem to have inertia, you can't trail brake and the FFB is not very good too. 

I hope you will keep working with the cars handling and FFB, for now I wouldn't recommend dirt rally to any of my rally/sim loving friends and I feel a little cheated that this was described as a sim. I see the potential for a great rally sim here, if you can just concentrate on getting your FFb and car handling physics to a higher level. 
The rally cars on gravel, particularly RWD are the best in any game ever. The 70s cars feel absolutely magic to drive on a loose surface, particularly the Mk2 which has the perfect balance. Perhaps the only thing they could do with, is less grip under braking so the rear of the car steps out a bit more.

Although saying all this, the physics of the cars are due another tweaking before the end of EA anyway, at the moment the plan is to get the big content updates out of the way, and then more time and people can be spent on refinements. So at the moment we just have to be patient and wait.
If that's your opinion then you must never have driven a sim in your life. Have a go at Live for Speed, you can download the demo free and drive a RWD car on dirt. You will see how dirt rally is flawed instantly even with the low powered RWD car in LFS. I know from real life experience of driving RWD cars on dirt roads, that LFS is realistic and that Dirt rally does not simulate this properly.
If the physics are due tweaking that's great, but to me it feels like it needs more than a little tweak.
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DoriT said:
The rally cars on gravel, particularly RWD are the best in any game ever. The 70s cars feel absolutely magic to drive on a loose surface, particularly the Mk2 which has the perfect balance. Perhaps the only thing they could do with, is less grip under braking so the rear of the car steps out a bit more.

Although saying all this, the physics of the cars are due another tweaking before the end of EA anyway, at the moment the plan is to get the big content updates out of the way, and then more time and people can be spent on refinements. So at the moment we just have to be patient and wait.
If that's your opinion then you must never have driven a sim in your life. Have a go at Live for Speed, you can download the demo free and drive a RWD car on dirt. You will see how dirt rally is flawed instantly even with the low powered RWD car in LFS. I know from real life experience of driving RWD cars on dirt roads, that LFS is realistic and that Dirt rally does not simulate this properly.
If the physics are due tweaking that's great, but to me it feels like it needs more than a little tweak.

LFS is realistic because it feels like skidding with your testicles on ice?

Please....

I've only driven a FWD rally car and it was on tarmac, so I don't have first hand experience. But how can some people be stuck in this belief that 'if it's hard it must be real' is beyond me...

Once you get your FFB set up well and you take the Lancia 037 to Greece it all comes together and in my view it all feels very natural and realistic.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but... I just can't stomach such arguments and 'I've driven a car on a dirt road, I know how it should be'...
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DoriT said:
DoriT said:
Sorry to just talk about the negative points, but I think there is problems with your physics. I was told this was a sim, so I was very disappointed to drive it and see that the no.1 most important thing about a sim, the car handling physics and FFB, is a very low level compared to sims I'm used to playing, like Assetto Corsa and Live for Speed.

The RX cars are an improvement, but still this does not feel like a sim to drive. I never feel like I'm driving a rally car while playing Dirt rally. The car handling is not true to life. 
There's a lot more wrong than just what I describe, but I think this is the easiest fault for me to describe here. It's very evident you have traction control of some sort present in the RWD cars even though I have all that stuff turned off in the menus. It's probably present in the other cars too, but it's more difficult to tell with 4WD. 

RWD (I tested the Kadett most) cars don't just get magic grip from nowhere, if the wheels are spinning they don't only spin to a certain speed above the car speed then start gripping, in reality they will keep spinning and will spin more if I press the throttle more until the speed of the car starts to catch up with the speed the wheels are spinning at. 

The cars don't seem to have inertia, you can't trail brake and the FFB is not very good too. 

I hope you will keep working with the cars handling and FFB, for now I wouldn't recommend dirt rally to any of my rally/sim loving friends and I feel a little cheated that this was described as a sim. I see the potential for a great rally sim here, if you can just concentrate on getting your FFb and car handling physics to a higher level. 
The rally cars on gravel, particularly RWD are the best in any game ever. The 70s cars feel absolutely magic to drive on a loose surface, particularly the Mk2 which has the perfect balance. Perhaps the only thing they could do with, is less grip under braking so the rear of the car steps out a bit more.

Although saying all this, the physics of the cars are due another tweaking before the end of EA anyway, at the moment the plan is to get the big content updates out of the way, and then more time and people can be spent on refinements. So at the moment we just have to be patient and wait.
If that's your opinion then you must never have driven a sim in your life. Have a go at Live for Speed, you can download the demo free and drive a RWD car on dirt. You will see how dirt rally is flawed instantly even with the low powered RWD car in LFS. I know from real life experience of driving RWD cars on dirt roads, that LFS is realistic and that Dirt rally does not simulate this properly.
If the physics are due tweaking that's great, but to me it feels like it needs more than a little tweak.
How can you compare real RALLY CARS from DiRT Rally to fictional ROAD CARS from LFS when they're complete different vehicles? Ever heard how much suspension, tires and weight affects car behavior? 
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DoriT said:
The rally cars on gravel, particularly RWD are the best in any game ever. The 70s cars feel absolutely magic to drive on a loose surface, particularly the Mk2 which has the perfect balance. Perhaps the only thing they could do with, is less grip under braking so the rear of the car steps out a bit more.

Although saying all this, the physics of the cars are due another tweaking before the end of EA anyway, at the moment the plan is to get the big content updates out of the way, and then more time and people can be spent on refinements. So at the moment we just have to be patient and wait.
If that's your opinion then you must never have driven a sim in your life. Have a go at Live for Speed, you can download the demo free and drive a RWD car on dirt. You will see how dirt rally is flawed instantly even with the low powered RWD car in LFS. I know from real life experience of driving RWD cars on dirt roads, that LFS is realistic and that Dirt rally does not simulate this properly.
If the physics are due tweaking that's great, but to me it feels like it needs more than a little tweak.

LFS is realistic because it feels like skidding with your testicles on ice?

Please....

I've only driven a FWD rally car and it was on tarmac, so I don't have first hand experience. But how can some people be stuck in this belief that 'if it's hard it must be real' is beyond me...

Once you get your FFB set up well and you take the Lancia 037 to Greece it all comes together and in my view it all feels very natural and realistic.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but... I just can't stomach such arguments and 'I've driven a car on a dirt road, I know how it should be'...
I'm not sure why you disagree with me when you admit you don't actually know what you are talking about. Why should I only drive one car to get a RWD feeling when the other RWD cars should also feel like RWD cars?
I never said it must be hard to be real or like driving on ice, you brought that up because you don't  have any real argument against the points I made. 

Also I've driven many cars to their limit and beyond on dirt not just a RWD car like you say, as if to try make it seem like my experience is much less than it actually is, when in fact it is far greater than your experience in real life and in simulators.
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I had 30-40 km under my belt with a RWD Mercedes 190 rally car on studded tires on a icy lake in Norway this winter. I'd say Codies are pretty close when it comes to physics of RWD on gravel, but I still find the cars a little too grippy. When driving the Mercedes I was going sideways pretty much everywhere. Very enjoyable :)
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DoriT said:
LFS is realistic because it feels like skidding with your testicles on ice?

Please....

I've only driven a FWD rally car and it was on tarmac, so I don't have first hand experience. But how can some people be stuck in this belief that 'if it's hard it must be real' is beyond me...

Once you get your FFB set up well and you take the Lancia 037 to Greece it all comes together and in my view it all feels very natural and realistic.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but... I just can't stomach such arguments and 'I've driven a car on a dirt road, I know how it should be'...
I'm not sure why you disagree with me when you admit you don't actually know what you are talking about. Why should I only drive one car to get a RWD feeling when the other RWD cars should also feel like RWD cars?
I never said it must be hard to be real or like driving on ice, you brought that up because you don't  have any real argument against the points I made. 

Also I've driven many cars to their limit and beyond on dirt not just a RWD car like you say, as if to try make it seem like my experience is much less than it actually is, when in fact it is far greater than your experience in real life and in simulators.

I've disagreed, because in my view LFS on dirt is not realistic and DiRT Rally does not require more than tweaks.

It's 'clear' you are extremely experienced in taking your testies to the limit and I know nothing.
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Benniz said:
I had 30-40 km under my belt with a RWD Mercedes 190 rally car on studded tires on a icy lake in Norway this winter. I'd say Codies are pretty close when it comes to physics of RWD on gravel, but I still find the cars a little too grippy. When driving the Mercedes I was going sideways pretty much everywhere. Very enjoyable :)
Hopefully you'll be a good judge when we get Sweden then :D 
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Mine and few other finns opinion is that the lateral grip might need a little bit tweaking, its too grippy atm. Perhaps the inertia is pretty much nonexistent, I can't say because I'm not sure I can feel that. But the general consensus is that the physics still arent quite 100% there regardless of how good it already is (!!!) and how much fun it is to drive. Bit more tweaking of the different grip levels and perhaps looking into the inertia /body roll of the cars and bueno.
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How many rallies have you competed on then?
None, not that it makes any difference as it doesn't change the laws of physics when you enter a rally.

If you can't come up with anything more than strawman arguments, instead of proving me wrong in what I said, don't bother wasting my time.
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DoriT said:
How many rallies have you competed on then?
None, not that it makes any difference as it doesn't change the laws of physics when you enter a rally.

If you can't come up with anything more than strawman arguments, instead of proving me wrong in what I said, don't bother wasting my time.
How many rally cars have you driven with the right suspension, tyres etc?? That changes everything.
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The Good: The whole game is exceeding my expectations for Early Access in terms of both content and quality. Almost all concerns like handling are being addressed. But there are a couple things..

The Bad: It is a Huge Oversight that the clutch cannot be bound on gamepads or wheels using sequential. Most drivers are now gimped on slow hairpins. Remove the handcuffs, please..
  • Like Dirty Harry said, they do. They only use it for taking off, after that you can shift without using the clutch. They do use it when pulling handbrake turns, which is pure logic because you don’t want to send torque to the wheels while applying the handbrake.

- Using Gamepad the in-menu buttons for 'save car setup' and 'overwrite setup' seem backwards to me. 'A' should be load, and 'X' should be overwrite imo. We always hit 'A' to skip through menus so it is maddeningly easy to overwrite on button momentum (especially for impatient goofballs like myself).

DiRT:Rally is already the best driving game I have ever played, so a big THANK YOU is in order. Thanks Codies!  

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No that doesn't change anything, I've driven 3 cars that were prepped for rally, not that it matters. The problem is with the games physics. It doesn't matter what suspension, tyres or whatever you change on a car, it still obeys the laws of physics like every other car. No adjustment you can make to a car makes it behave like it is from another dimension where tyres can only spin a certain amount faster than the car so it can gain grip magically.

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I guess this discussion highlights the need for some dev feedback on the state of the physics and car handling.

I was under the impression that things were learnt when hill-climb was implemented and that these learnings were to be applied to the rally cars. Is this correct? Has this occurred?

There's also been commentary regarding the chasis vs tyre grip in rallycross. Is this rallycross specific or also something that also needs to be applied to the previously implemented vehicles?
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The good:

After 18 hours of playtime i finally managed to promote to clubman rally. The last time i felt this sense of achievement was after clearing molten core with 40 motivated people in the first iteration of world of warcraft. I ended up playing that game for 8 years with 6+ months of cumulative playtime.
When maintained with new (payed) content, for me, this could be good for at least the same amount of dedication. At this point i'd be fine with paying a subscription fee.

The bad:
No statements have been made for what will happen after early access. A clear roadmap is given until 1.0, but i guess i am eager to know if the codies will stand by this gem of a game for the future.

Whatever happens, i'm having a blast with this game! This is a clear break from "hi milkshake, i'm <cool dude 1>, the fans are cheering" and a return to the holy grail of gaming: rock solid gameplay.

thx guys and girls!
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Benniz said:
I had 30-40 km under my belt with a RWD Mercedes 190 rally car on studded tires on a icy lake in Norway this winter. I'd say Codies are pretty close when it comes to physics of RWD on gravel, but I still find the cars a little too grippy. When driving the Mercedes I was going sideways pretty much everywhere. Very enjoyable :)
Hopefully you'll be a good judge when we get Sweden then :D 
I bet you I'll try! Also did a local rally this winter in a FWD Nissan Almera GTi, before getting my own rally car. You'll hear from me!
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What are we doing well.

I like every thing about the set up and game play. Graphics are brilliant, I've done Sweet Lamb for real and I thought I was there again.
I've no real problem with anything else.

What could we do better.

The problem I have and, from what I see on many forums, is not being able to go full screen. I understand it's being worked on and I hope that will be sorted very soon.
The windscreen wipers coming on randomly does not seem real. It would be much better if you could switch them on yourself,  approaching a water splash, then off having passed through.  Or possibly the co-driver turns them on approaching and off having passed through a water splash, as it should be on his notes. This was how we did it for real. 

I know it's " Early Release " but keep up the great work.
  
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What are we doing well:

- Physics, tracks and stages are great. I love the Rally Cross update .
- The way Codemasters is listening to the commnuty feedback
-  Early Acces

What could we do better:
Please add offical support for the AccuForce Pro Steering wheel.  There a lot of AF out there (more than Bodnar wheels)
- Better FOV controls for the onbard camera's   (is comming i believe)
- True Tripplescreen support
- Slider for the AI difficutlty  in percentage like all the hardcore sims have. This allows us to tune the difficulty to our own skills. Sometimes the gap between 2 difficulties is too hihg.

- Lot's of  DLC Not cars but Rally stages, Rally Cross tracsks and Hill Climb stages. I will buy them all. 

Make this a game we can play for years to come. 
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